Analysis Can you succeed in today's game as a lockdown/slower style team?

[Howard Moon]

I've been watching with interest the sudden demise of the ross Lyon led Dockers and to be honest I actually feel for him. It seems like he has always invested heavily in building a certain type of player and a certain type of list and its debatable if its has been a successful pursuit in the long run but you cant say they havent atleast been untra competitive right up until the final weeks of every year.

Why i feel for him is because it feels like the rug has been pulled from under him, they have changed the goal posts on him in one fell swoop - 2 rules changes have changed the entire dynamic of the game this year. The 10m exclusion rule and the stricter interpretation of the deliberate OOB rule.

Its clear to see the AFL in their wisdom have wanted the game to be less cognested and more free flowing for a while now and some may say its been in direct opposition to the Lyon led styles of play that some may say blighted the game. But debate on football game plan and style can rage for ever - the bottom line should be that goals win matches and the higheer scoring sides have been winning flags most recently - which should give you the greatest incentive to try and score rather than lock down.

So the new rules with the exculsion zone and OOB are making it near impossible to lock a game down and are totally exposing slower players and slower sides as a whole. You can watch with military precision as sides expose Freo on the way back, their once vaunted death by suffocation is now just a series of huge gaps to pick through and burn off. They cant now get it out of bounds to reset their structute - the game is always rolling and pacey - it relies on players being instinctive which i believe is something that a Lyon coached team would have drummed out of them in favour of process - structure and playing your role as a cog in a greater machine.

anyway this isnt meant to be a Lyon basing excercise, but his structure has been the most hit by the new rules - this is more about asking the question, are you still able to be successfull in this new game if you are slower - and are we as a club well placed or otherwise pace wise to deal with the challenges of the new game?

We have been noted as being a slower side in the near past with a very one paced midfield, have we adressed or are we adressing this?

I think the three thigns you need to succeed in this new are are pace, top notch footskills and physical fitness.

where do we stand on these do you think?

Or will the game turn again at some point soon and a new skill set will be required again?

 

[boncer34]

Throw in limited interchanges into that as well.

 

[VelvetSledge]

I think the three thigns you need to succeed in this new are are pace, top notch footskills and physical fitness.

Nailed it.

The game will change again, probably to suit slower styles as the year goes on, with limited interchanges. The players will get more tired as the year runs on, so it will be interesting to see if Freo come into their own later in the year or continue to stagnate.

 

[ManWithNoName]

Nothing is as overrated in football as pace.

I haven't seen Freo live this year so I can't be sure but it could just be the way they're setting up ahead of the ball. Quick ball movement destroys leg speed every day. If the new rules exposed a lack of pace then Sam Mitchell wouldn't be in Brownlow form. Rather the new rules reward players who know where to be. The opening up of space allows for more sideways ball movement and more willingness to go through the corridor. But to do that, you need to set up that.

Ross has always struggled with attacking. He used to grind the ball forward with stoppage after stoppage, with Sandi and Fyfe/Mundy/Barlow pushing it forward. Now however it's harder to do that. The 10m zone and the harsher deliberate rule means sides are keeping it in the corridor more. So they're being forced to have a better set up in there as I said, as well as a forward set up more readily than he's needed to before. It's something he's never been good at, and I think that's what's hurting.

As I said though, I've not seen them live so I'd happily defer to someone with a greater understanding.

 

[Howard Moon]

i guess when we say pace or a fast team, it means speed of decision making, ball movement and leg speed as a whole

 

[ManWithNoName]

i guess when we say pace or a fast team, it means speed of decision making, ball movement and leg speed as a whole

And when I say pace is overrated, I'm talking solely leg speed.

 

[Howard Moon]

so what has it come to? the winning team is the team that owns the corridor Better?

I noticed Woosh in the team talk saying he wanted playes to make an option through the corridor for the inboard kick but if not used, get straight out of there - reminds me of the paint in Basketball, cut in cut out, leave the space for the next cut. So clearly the corridor is now the field of dreams, where you win or lose your game.

so why wouldnt a Ross Lyon attmept to own the corridor?, set up the zone in there and use the pressure forwards to harrass the outbound kick wide pushing for the OOB rules to come into play?

I know im just a simpleton in game tactics but if the corridor is so important why leave it empty?

 

[Howard Moon]

Just thinking out loud, i reckon you can usually identify a clubs mentality or game style in a word - be it lockdown, possession based, run and gun, stoppage/ contested styled.

Id like to see if there is a link between the rule changes and the sides that are floundering ATM, outside of the rebuilders, the sides like Collingwood, Richmond, Freo are some of the higher ranked sides who were looking to contend but are flagging.. is there a link?

I reckon they are all on the slower sides ball movement wise, leg speed wise and rely on contested setups more.

Richmond have contested bulls inside , their captain and main impetus goes sideways at every opportunity, their main driver Deledio is out.. its down to the guys like Ellis, Houli or Martin to drive them

Collingwood have lots of bulls on the inside, Crisp, Treloar, Adams, Greenwood, they lost their outside ruin in sidey and varcoe early so again have been slowed up for style.

Is this too easy a link to establish? New rules dont favour contested sides?

What is our actual style in a nutshell?

 

[Buttsoup_Barnes]

From the looks of it we seem possession based.

 

[Old Campaigner]

I think a purely lockdown game style is done for with the rule changes, what the successful teams this year seem to be doing is maintaining that high tackle pressure on the ball carrier but moving it quickly while in possession.

Foot speed is going to be important, but long accurate kicking and one on one marking ability will be the most damaging attributes for footballers in this new era imo

 

[quotemokc]

Not gonna lie, it is a slight worry for me that if/when Watson, Stanton, Heppell, Myers and Hocking return we will be a slower side

 

[Old Campaigner]

Not gonna lie, it is a slight worry for me that if/when Watson, Stanton, Heppell, Myers and Hocking return we will be a slower side

That will only be an issue if we don't move the ball quickly. As someone has pointed out, Sam Mitchell wouldn't be getting games if footspeed was that important. In fact the Hawks midfield in general is pretty slow apart from Hartung, but they are so good at kicking it hasn't set them back too much.

 

[ant555]

You are going to struggle if you are all out defense and playing the Sydney 2005 style but the defense is still important. Last weeks Bulldogs v Hawks game showed that. Yes you need outside pace to run the ball and get behind the zone but you also need a good team / roll over defense. One thing you do need is one or two quick forwards who play at the back end of the press who can get behind the zone. Also need a tall forward who works the middle and not out wide so he can get back inside 50 easily.

 

[Resistor]

Or will the game turn again at some point soon and a new skill set will be required again?

Surely we are close to a stay at home forward with all these counter attacks? Just have a forward that will beat the defender on the lead and just lead into the 70 m of space created by everyone else pushing up.

 

[Old Campaigner]

Surely we are close to a stay at home forward with all these counter attacks? Just have a forward that will beat the defender on the lead and just lead into the 70 m of space created by everyone else pushing up.

Pagan's Paddock 2: Electric Boogaloo

 

[eth-dog]

I think that you need a balance. For me, the best way to do this is having a spare in defence that can be effective going forward. From Essendon the candidate would be Brendan Goddard IMO, especially as he's slowing down.

 

[Darealrath]

Not gonna lie, it is a slight worry for me that if/when Watson, Stanton, Heppell, Myers and Hocking return we will be a slower side

I've been thinking this too. We are down on a heap of talent but been able to play a group, mainly in the midfield, that seems a lot more balanced, mainly because they can run hard both ways and apply a lot of pressure without the ball. Be a big challenge for Worsfold to find the right mix if all goes well.

As to the OP, I'm not convinced defensive footy is dead. Freo have been up for a while and I think it's pretty hard for teams from Perth to back up year after year after year. The next team to buck the trend and get it right will probably go really far because they'll have a point of difference that other teams won't have much practise combating.

 

[quotemokc]

I think there is no problem with defensive footy, as long as you aren't relying on your midfield to clog up the field and get back like Freo.

If Hurley Hooker and Hibberd stay, then we have a very imposing defence without the NEED of midfielders getting back so hard.

 

[yaco55]

so what has it come to? the winning team is the team that owns the corridor Better?

I noticed Woosh in the team talk saying he wanted playes to make an option through the corridor for the inboard kick but if not used, get straight out of there - reminds me of the paint in Basketball, cut in cut out, leave the space for the next cut. So clearly the corridor is now the field of dreams, where you win or lose your game.

so why wouldnt a Ross Lyon attmept to own the corridor?, set up the zone in there and use the pressure forwards to harrass the outbound kick wide pushing for the OOB rules to come into play?

I know im just a simpleton in game tactics but if the corridor is so important why leave it empty?

Freo is using the corridor more often than in 2015 in an attacking sense. They still play conservatively in the sense that from defensive 50, they are usually safe with their first kick, and then take a chance with their second kick - Freo scored 100 points against North and nearly 100 points against the GC - What they can't do is defend from clearances and defensive transitions.

 

[yaco55]

Just thinking out loud, i reckon you can usually identify a clubs mentality or game style in a word - be it lockdown, possession based, run and gun, stoppage/ contested styled.

Id like to see if there is a link between the rule changes and the sides that are floundering ATM, outside of the rebuilders, the sides like Collingwood, Richmond, Freo are some of the higher ranked sides who were looking to contend but are flagging.. is there a link?

I reckon they are all on the slower sides ball movement wise, leg speed wise and rely on contested setups more.

Richmond have contested bulls inside , their captain and main impetus goes sideways at every opportunity, their main driver Deledio is out.. its down to the guys like Ellis, Houli or Martin to drive them

Collingwood have lots of bulls on the inside, Crisp, Treloar, Adams, Greenwood, they lost their outside ruin in sidey and varcoe early so again have been slowed up for style.

Is this too easy a link to establish? New rules dont favour contested sides?

What is our actual style in a nutshell?

Those three sides are being hurt because they lack quality kicks in their defensive 50 - Turnovers are destroying their season.

 

[Howard Moon]

Just reading all of the above - does feel like Pagans Paddock mk2 is upon us.

Crucially Pagans padock worked because he had the greatest CHF of his generation running back onto the balls and either marking them with the flight, or atleast bringing the ball to ground.

Here is a little Paddopck blurb..

PAGAN'S PADDOCK

Kangaroos coach Denis Pagan devised what became known as 'Pagan's Paddock', a tactic that revolved around superstar centre half-forward Wayne Carey.

Pagan: "It (Pagan's Paddock) came about as a result of us wanting to turn it into a game of crash-'n'-bash footy, which was one of our strengths; we were probably the best at it in the mid to late-'90s. We employed a three-quarter ground squeeze on the opposition where we'd push the half-forward line up into the midfield and the full-forward line up to half-forward and we'd kick over their heads into space inside 50 so our forwards could run on to it. We did that years earlier in North's under-19s (which Pagan coached for a decade) when we had Leigh Tudor, and we did the same thing with the Kangaroos, except this time we were lucky enough to have Wayne Carey running on to the ball towards goal. If he marked it, terrific; if he didn't mark it, he brought it to the ground and we had plenty of space to run on to the loose ball. It evolved and there were a lot of variations of it, with and without Wayne."

Wayne Carey: "I often played between full-forward and centre half-forward. I didn't always play centre half-forward like that. It came about from conversations between Denis and I about trying to get more possessions closer to goal. I'd still try to get possessions up at half-forward/wing, but we were mindful that we could hurt the opposition more if I increased the amount of ball I won within scoring range. And it was also meant to help our centre clearances.

"Previously, like all the centre half-forwards of the '80s, I'd generally start on the line and charge into the square. On numerous occasions when there was a long hit-out by our ruckman, I'd grab the ball and give it off to a running player who would kick it to (full-forward) John Longmire and we'd get a goal. But then we changed our philosophy. We wanted to open up the centre half-forward area to give our on-ballers more room, so that if there was a long tap, they could run on to the ball without fear of a centre half-back and centre half-forward running the other way and encroaching on their space or running through them. Hence, my starting position would be halfway between full-forward and centre half-forward.

"The other theory behind it was that when I started up on the line and there was a quick kick out of the pack, it would often lob over my head. No one knows exactly where kicks like that are going to land because they are just hacked out of the pack under pressure, but I thought: 'If I position myself deeper and the kick is slightly long or slightly to one side, it'll be relatively easy to hold my opponent off and take a mark about 40 metres from goal.' It evolved from there and then I started doing it in general play, so that by the time I'd made a lead, I'd be just outside 50 rather than at half-forward/wing. That's how most centre half-forwards play now. You don't often see them starting on the line any more.

"When 'Pagan's Paddock' worked, it made centre half-forward a much easier position. It was a very exciting tactic to be part of because it hadn't been used before – or if it had, it hadn't been used as consistently. Centre half-backs usually aren't the most nimble players, and backmen don't like having space both in front and behind them, so the idea was to turn them around and run them back into space towards goal. At various times, we also had players with great leg speed like Brett Allison and Winston Abraham who could exploit it
as well.

"The way to counter it was to place a loose man in that space, but, amazingly, clubs didn't often do that. When they did, they'd stand him close to me, so I'd have two players on me but we'd still have that space to work in, which was more important."

----------------------------------------------------------

I guess what this tells us is a: Pagan was well ahead of his time and b:, a lot of the tactics, variables and factors mentioned above really do sound very familiar in regards to how the game is being played this year.

Could Joe be our version of duck in this system?

 

[Zach Package]

That's how we should be using Shredwards

 

[Old Campaigner]

I guess what this tells us is a: Pagan was well ahead of his time and b:, a lot of the tactics, variables and factors mentioned above really do sound very familiar in regards to how the game is being played this year.

Could Joe be our version of duck in this system?

How often have we seen 'cheap' goals kicked by a player sitting halfway between the goals and the pack this year? I reckon Betts did it a couple of times last weekend and I'm sure I've seen it happen a few more times in other games. It's not quite Pagan's Paddock but it's a similar idea. That tactic of waiting for all the players to bunch of on one side of the ground then pinging the ball up the far side seems to assisting with it.

 

[Howard Moon]

How often have we seen 'cheap' goals kicked by a player sitting halfway between the goals and the pack this year? I reckon Betts did it a couple of times last weekend and I'm sure I've seen it happen a few more times in other games. It's not quite Pagan's Paddock but it's a similar idea. That tactic of waiting for all the players to bunch of on one side of the ground then pinging the ball up the far side seems to assisting with it.

The old switch to the fat side.

Maybe in reality there shouldnt be a situation that a properly stationed loose man in defence should be not able to negate.

Only downside would be how much damage their +1 is doing and where they are. or if they just man uop the loose which in turn clogs the area... OK maybe i just negated my own argument...

 

[Towno78]

Nothing is as overrated in football as pace.

By the general public/commentary or within football clubs? List managers/recruiters rate it very highly and I think for good reason.

Your argument that Mitchell is slow and good, therefore pace is overrated simply does not hold up.

Stating pace as being important, is not the same as to say that every player on your team must have it. But it is to say, you definitely do need some players who do. We will not survive next year, if we have all of Watson, Goddard, Myers, Heppell, Hocking, Howlett through the middle.

Also, Sam Mitchell being a gun as is, does not mean he wouldn't be a superior player if he was also fast. Prestia's a gun, therefore height is overrated. Heppell's a gun, therefore foot skills on your non-preferred is overrated. Judd was a superstar, so who needs to be able to mark overhead? Etc.