Expansion Canberra

[Canberra Pear]

Can you point me to the plans for Manuka - what capacity will be like, etc.?

All I can find is general thought bubbles designed several years ago.

There haven't been any recently published hard plans, but this from an article on the Canberra Times in September looks like they'd be roughly aiming for what the masterplan had laid out around 2013, which is aiming for 20k.

Assuming you don't have a Canberra Times subscription, here are the key points:

ACT Chief Minister Andrew Barr is eager to redevelop Manuka Oval, but said that is dependent on securing a BBL licence.

Cricket ACT and the AFL recently unveiled plans to build an eastern grandstand and upgrade spectator amenities. The development would retain the ground's boutique feel while increasing seating capacity.

Barr is confident Manuka Oval can be redeveloped while a new rectangular stadium is built in Bruce and pointed to Tasmania for a way the territory and federal governments can combine to build infrastructure.

"As part of our desire to work with the Commonwealth through the National Capital Investment Framework, there'd be two projects in the stadium space," Barr said.

"[That would mirror] what happened in Tasmania where the Commonwealth invested both in the Hobart new facility and in improving the Launceston one

The bit where it mentions the eastern grandstand was early mentioned in a parliamentary submission from Cricket ACT, where it said:

Importantly, the ACT Government has a strong desire to reshape the eastern side of the ground, which would likely include a permanent grandstand facility with covered seating for spectators and fans, and appropriate corporate hospitality facilities, all designed to enhance Manuka Oval’s current reputation as the best boutique cricket ground in Australia

I can't find the link at the moment, but I remember an article saying it would bring it up to 20k, which is in line with the earlier mentioned masterplan.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

There haven't been any recently published hard plans, but this from an article on the Canberra Times in September looks like they'd be roughly aiming for what the masterplan had laid out around 2013, which is aiming for 20k.

Assuming you don't have a Canberra Times subscription, here are the key points:


The bit where it mentions the eastern grandstand was early mentioned in a parliamentary submission from Cricket ACT, where it said:



I can't find the link at the moment, but I remember an article saying it would bring it up to 20k, which is in line with the earlier mentioned masterplan.

Master Plan Progress Manuka Oval

In developing the options, stakeholders were consulted and the site and the surrounding area was fully analysed.

manukaoval.com.au

Found this on the internet so hopefully y’all can have a look and see if that’s what your alluding to.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Master Plan Progress Manuka Oval

In developing the options, stakeholders were consulted and the site and the surrounding area was fully analysed.

manukaoval.com.au

Found this on the internet so hopefully y’all can have a look and see if that’s what your alluding to.

That's the one. It's deviated a bit since then. We've got the media centre.

But I think the current proposal would be pretty similar to phase three to get it to 20k.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Unfortunately the second article is behind a paywall, but it seems that there are still some issues to be resolved before Canberra gets a new soccer team for the 24-25 season. The team was supposed to be finalised mid last year, but with continual extensions the deal is now against a deadline, with the delay and lack of adequate funding from the ACT Government and Capital Football having a negative impact on the future of Canberra United female soccer team.

Heat's on Canberra United to get deal done | Canberra CityNews

The Australian Professional Leagues will not come to the rescue of Canberra United or Newcastle Jets if deals for new ownership fall through.

citynews.com.au

'Proved difficult': Rising costs forces Capital Football into Canberra United rethink

The A-Leagues and ACT government have ruled out propping up Canberra United.

www.canberratimes.com.au

 

[Coolangatta]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2024/03...r-potential-crowd-number-for-north-melbourne/

They'd average 20k per game at an upgraded Manuka...

 

[MelbourneGWS]

With continual delays in Canberra getting a men’s team in soccer’s Aleague expansion for the 2024-25 season, now even our well regarded Canberra United women’s soccer team is also having funding issues - with Capital Football desperately looking for additional $ from our ACT Government and other entities to keep Canberra United afloat.

Capital Football continues to explore all avenues to ensure that Canberra United take the field for Season 17, seeking new sources of investment having exhausted traditional revenue and funding streams. We are working alongside the Canberra A-League bid, the APL, and the ACT Government to explore additional opportunities.

Canberra United's future in the balance as fans start petition | Canberra Daily

The future of Canberra United in the A-League Women's competition beyond this season is in serious doubt as Capital Football struggles with the rising cost of running the team.

canberradaily.com.au

 

[MelbourneGWS]

In the end Barr’s government responded to public concerns and have made $200,000 funding available to ensure that Canberra United female soccer team is safe for at least next year

Canberra United safe for another season after ACT Government injects extra $200,000 | Riotact

Canberra United players will take to the field for season 17 after an injection of $200,000 from the ACT Government.…

the-riotact.com

 

[MelbourneGWS]

The exit of the Melbourne Rebels is good for the Brumbies fans in Canberra - unless in the unlikely circumstances Rugby Australia relocate them.

https://www.news.com.au/sport/rugby/the-melbourne-rebels-will-not-continue-in-2025-after-rugby-australia-rejected-a-bit-to-keep-them-alive/news-story/fc9bf012307cad64a0826f77a6b253fc

 

[Johnny Bananas]

But that being said, I quite like the prospect of Manuka's future. Relatively central location amongst pubs and restaurants. Will be along the light rail within the decade. It would have much more soul than a mini-Docklands.

The preferred light rail plan seems to go along State Circuit with a stop at the intersection with Sydney Ave, which will be about a 1km walk from Manuka. Is that close enough for people? I wouldn't exactly call it being along the light rail with that kind of walk.

I also see that the light rail is to have a stop directly outside Phillip Oval. Do you think it would be worth having the stadium there? Further away from the city centre, but a stop right outside is convenient.

 

[Canberra Pear]

The preferred light rail plan seems to go along State Circuit with a stop at the intersection with Sydney Ave, which will be about a 1km walk from Manuka. Is that close enough for people? I wouldn't exactly call it being along the light rail with that kind of walk.

Along might be a bit of mayo, but I still think a light rail stop only 1km away makes it much more accessible. 1km sounds a lot as a distance, but it's only a 14-minute walk.

Still half the distance from the train to Carrara. And 400m less than the Gabba.

Fingers crossed they choose the dog leg option though. Only 750m, 10 minutes.

I also see that the light rail is to have a stop directly outside Phillip Oval. Do you think it would be worth having the stadium there? Further away from the city centre, but a stop right outside is convenient.

I'm definitely not opposed to Phillip. Good transport, relatively central, lots of pubs and restaurants nearby.

Only downside is it's starting from scratch. A new stadium at Phillip would, I assume, cost more than an upgraded Manuka. And a new (non-rectangular) stadium would be a big ask in Canberra.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Along might be a bit of mayo, but I still think a light rail stop only 1km away makes it much more accessible. 1km sounds a lot as a distance, but it's only a 14-minute walk.

For an able-bodied adult, yes. I think it makes Manuka more accessible, but not truly convenient to access.

Still half the distance from the train to Carrara.

Nobody should be making comparisons to Carrara. It's the most poorly located ground in the league and should only be used as an example of what not to do.

And 400m less than the Gabba.

The Gabba is getting a train station next door within two years.

Fingers crossed they choose the dog leg option though. Only 750m, 10 minutes.

That would be better. Still not as convenient as it could be, but better.

I'm definitely not opposed to Phillip. Good transport, relatively central, lots of pubs and restaurants nearby.

Only downside is it's starting from scratch. A new stadium at Phillip would, I assume, cost more than an upgraded Manuka. And a new (non-rectangular) stadium would be a big ask in Canberra.

Fair call. I guess it depends on what the government would go for.

 

[Canberra Pear]

For an able-bodied adult, yes. I think it makes Manuka more accessible, but not truly convenient to access.


Nobody should be making comparisons to Carrara. It's the most poorly located ground in the league and should only be used as an example of what not to do.


The Gabba is getting a train station next door within two years.


That would be better. Still not as convenient as it could be, but better.


Fair call. I guess it depends on what the government would go for.

You're right for everything. In an ideal world, I'd love a stop right next door. But in a multi-code city with two, possibly three, full-time rectangular teams crying for a new stadium, I think it'd be an uphill battle to get a new stadium built at Phillip.

So I think we have to make the best of what we've got at Manuka. I hope the AFL is lobbying in the background for the closer of the two light rail options.

 

[Walshawk]

Heaps and heaps of carparking near Manuka. For those with mobility issues, perhaps they could run shuttles from the tram like they do from Richmond Station to the MCG.

 

[Badger17]

Along might be a bit of mayo, but I still think a light rail stop only 1km away makes it much more accessible. 1km sounds a lot as a distance, but it's only a 14-minute walk.

Still half the distance from the train to Carrara. And 400m less than the Gabba.

Fingers crossed they choose the dog leg option though. Only 750m, 10 minutes.



I'm definitely not opposed to Phillip. Good transport, relatively central, lots of pubs and restaurants nearby.

Only downside is it's starting from scratch. A new stadium at Phillip would, I assume, cost more than an upgraded Manuka. And a new (non-rectangular) stadium would be a big ask in Canberra.

Canberra would need a stadium with a capacity larger than 20k to support an AFL side. Odds are that the AFL would demand a new modern stadium like they have in Tasmania as well.

Ideally you'd want a stadium with a capacity of about 30k, anything less and I guarantee the team would outgrow it relatively quickly.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Canberra would need a stadium with a capacity larger than 20k to support an AFL side. Odds are that the AFL would demand a new modern stadium like they have in Tasmania as well.

Ideally you'd want a stadium with a capacity of about 30k, anything less and I guarantee the team would outgrow it relatively quickly.

Unless the oval sports get included in some multiuse stadium, do you think there's a chance of a new 30k oval in Canberra?

 

[Pivot Piece]

You'd be better off putting $100M into Manuka by enclosing the outer wing with seating to bring it up to ~20k and putting some sort of overhang over it. You don't want to go down the path of a multipurpose stadium than can covert from rectangular to oval as it doesn't really work in either configuration

 

[Walshawk]

Canberra would need a stadium with a capacity larger than 20k to support an AFL side. Odds are that the AFL would demand a new modern stadium like they have in Tasmania as well.

Ideally you'd want a stadium with a capacity of about 30k, anything less and I guarantee the team would outgrow it relatively quickly.

The AFL (read broadcasters) does not want big stadiums any more. They want full stadiums that look good and generate atmosphere for TV. 23k will do, same as Tas, GWS & GC. Along the lines of the previous post from PP, build a new eastern stand with some corporate facilities and get it up to 23k. Easy.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The AFL (read broadcasters) does not want big stadiums any more. They want full stadiums that look good and generate atmosphere for TV. 23k will do, same as Tas, GWS & GC. Along the lines of the previous post from PP, build a new eastern stand with some corporate facilities and get it up to 23k. Easy.

That, plus perceived lack of supply can jack up prices. Sydney have come out and said, despite increasing fandom in Sydney over the last 10 years, they have no great issue with the fact that they're getting more and more sellouts. They can raise ticket prices, improve the status of the team and make any given ticket seem like a hot one. It's better than than getting a few thousand more people through the gates on the margin.

 

[Badger17]

Unless the oval sports get included in some multiuse stadium, do you think there's a chance of a new 30k oval in Canberra?

It's clear to anybody who has paid attention to the stadium debate for the last 15 years that Barr has wanted an oval all along. It would have happened already if he thought he could get away with it.

I'd put money on Labour building it if the AFL offered the ACT a license with the criteria that they build a new modern stadium, especially if the AFL offered some funding for it and CA could be convinced to give Canberra a BBL license as well. Yeah it'd cause a political spat similar to the one in Tasmania, likely more vicious, but in the end the stadium would get over the line unless the city was willing to vote Labour out, which ain't happening.

 

[Badger17]

The AFL (read broadcasters) does not want big stadiums any more. They want full stadiums that look good and generate atmosphere for TV. 23k will do, same as Tas, GWS & GC. Along the lines of the previous post from PP, build a new eastern stand with some corporate facilities and get it up to 23k. Easy.

You'd be locking roughly 10k fans out of big games like finals with a stadium that small, and the side could realistically average around 25k assuming it's well run.

Take Bruce stadium. The Raiders could be averaging over 20k if it wasn't for the poor accessibility, poor facilities, lack of coverage from the elements, and over all terrible experience at Bruce, and despite being easily the worst major stadium in the country the Raiders still effectively sell out it's 25k capacity for most finals games. The Brumbies used to do the same before RU decided to commit seppuku in this county.

The demand for an AFL side would be similar to the demand for the Raiders, the only difference being that an upgraded Manuka or new stadium wouldn't have any of the problems Bruce has. So yeah 23k is way too small, you'll need closer to 30k.

If I was asked to give a hard number I'd say 28k minimum. Anything less would be underselling the potential of the team and would limit potential growth.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

It's clear to anybody who has paid attention to the stadium debate for the last 15 years that Barr has wanted an oval all along. It would have happened already if he thought he could get away with it.

I'd put money on Labour building it if the AFL offered the ACT a license with the criteria that they build a new modern stadium, especially if the AFL offered some funding for it and CA could be convinced to give Canberra a BBL license as well. Yeah it'd cause a political spat similar to the one in Tasmania, likely more vicious, but in the end the stadium would get over the line unless the city was willing to vote Labour out, which ain't happening.

The problem there is that Barr is currently dependent on the Greens to form government, and they're generally not in favour of spending taxpayer money on stadiums. At most they'd support an upgrade to Manuka with an increased capacity but probably not a knock down and full rebuild. For that, or a new 30k seater somewhere else, Labor would need a majority in the assembly on their own.

 

[Coolangatta]

The problem there is that Barr is currently dependent on the Greens to form government, and they're generally not in favour of spending taxpayer money on stadiums. At most they'd support an upgrade to Manuka with an increased capacity but probably not a knock down and full rebuild. For that, or a new 30k seater somewhere else, Labor would need a majority in the assembly on their own.

Yeah. 23k Manuka might be an undersell, but look how successful the Eagles have been because of demand.

A Canberra AFL team is probably going to average 20k a game, and sellout for big games. Now I’m not an expert on everything that makes a club viable or not but if Canberra did get that plus backing from the ACT government then surely you’ve got a successful new club.

You don’t have a what if like you do anywhere else and even WA3 is a what if.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

ACT pays for interstate travellers. While good for local society if it's a good game, fans won't travel if it isn't easy and smooth to get an away ticket. Sellouts presume big home crowds, which there's no need for ongoing ACT support.

Tasmania are paying for their stadium because even with 23k capacity, there won't be consistent sellouts from local crowds year on year that prevents a few thousand traveling fans going if they want to.

 

[Pivot Piece]

Yeah. 23k Manuka might be an undersell, but look how successful the Eagles have been because of demand.

A Canberra AFL team is probably going to average 20k a game, and sellout for big games. Now I’m not an expert on everything that makes a club viable or not but if Canberra did get that plus backing from the ACT government then surely you’ve got a successful new club.

You don’t have a what if like you do anywhere else and even WA3 is a what if.

I think it would average more like 12-14k, which is fine for a small market. Still reckon it would outdraw GC and GWS. Tassie will average 16-19k imo

 

[Walshawk]

You'd be locking roughly 10k fans out of big games like finals with a stadium that small, and the side could realistically average around 25k assuming it's well run.

Take Bruce stadium. The Raiders could be averaging over 20k if it wasn't for the poor accessibility, poor facilities, lack of coverage from the elements, and over all terrible experience at Bruce, and despite being easily the worst major stadium in the country the Raiders still effectively sell out it's 25k capacity for most finals games. The Brumbies used to do the same before RU decided to commit seppuku in this county.

The demand for an AFL side would be similar to the demand for the Raiders, the only difference being that an upgraded Manuka or new stadium wouldn't have any of the problems Bruce has. So yeah 23k is way too small, you'll need closer to 30k.

If I was asked to give a hard number I'd say 28k minimum. Anything less would be underselling the potential of the team and would limit potential growth.

There will be minimal government funding for upgrades to Manuka. If they can get $150m to get it to 23k, get it done. Don’t promise the world like Tas did. You can rebuild/uograde the west side down the track.