Expansion Canberra

[Canberra Pear]

I lived in Canberra for 5 years but left in 2002.

The Brumbies were the hottest ticket in town and the Raiders were somewhat waning. I went to a couple of Brumbies games and was pretty non-plussed, I used to go to Manuka and watch whatever game was on between 2 teams I had no emotional connection to. The crowds were generally ok, particularly in comparison to the Raiders but there was a decided lack of atmosphere due to what I have already mentioned. I went to a couple of NSW/ACT Rams games because a Navy mate had a son playing with the Dandenong Stingrays. I remember when Cowboy Neale was coaching Ainslie and winning plenty of flags that there would quite often be reports on ACTFL games in the Victorian media.

My second last posting was out in Tuggeranong with a lot of civilians and a smattering of us service personnel. On Mondays there was never any discussion about the games from the weekend just finished and never any discussion in the lead up to the coming weekends games of any code. The only thing they'd say was that because Canberra was the capital of Australia, as a default they should have a local team in every national competition.

Unless things have changed drastically in the past 20 years, I certainly think there's room for an AFL team there but I don't think there's room for all three (3) of the major winter football codes.

Thanks for the insight!

The balance of popularity has definitely shifted from the Brumbies to the Raiders.

Your experience was a bit before my time as a Canberran, but I think things have become more favourable for footy.

You were there for the start of consistent games, but I think having the Giants here has helped cement routine AFL attendance. It's still not the same as a real Canberran team, but I think the Giants have gathered better support than the Roos.

In your period, there was one Canberran drafted. Conversely, we've had nine Canberran men drafted since 2015.

In 2017, AFL Canberra had its most junior teams since 1984. Admittedly, that would be boosted by female participation, which wasn't really previously present, but I think overall, footy in Canberra has grown stronger in the past two decades.

But the biggest change since you've left is probably the population. Since 2002, the ACT has grown by about ~45%. It's added an entire Darwin. By 2033 (the earliest we could add a team), our population will be ~70% larger than it was in 2002.

I think there's enough room for all three, but I think the Brumbies would be the most vulnerable if an AFL team entered.

 

[Dirty Bird]

I contacted the Sounding Board with Damo and Hutchy about Canberra getting the next team.

This was their response on air:



I also contacted Nat Edwards. She said:



The prevailing opinion of AFL journos seems to be the NT, which I find a bit confusing. I get that it's publicly popular, but I don't get how anybody with a supposedly intimate knowledge of the footy landscape can think that it's feasible. Is it just because they're all in the same circles so they regurgitate it once the idea is out there?

Yes, I'm biased towards a Canberra side, but none of them even raised WA3, which is still a much better option than the NT.

While Canberra would absolutely get behind a team better than the NT, we're too quiet about it. Too many polite public servants. We really somebody to commission a feasibility study to show how well a team would likely do.

It could also be along the lines of, they know GWS will need Canberra, so for the foreseeable future, GWS has a foot in each city, and if the AFL is to go to 20, it has to be elsewhere.

 

[Dirty Bird]

Thanks for the insight!

The balance of popularity has definitely shifted from the Brumbies to the Raiders.

Your experience was a bit before my time as a Canberran, but I think things have become more favourable for footy.

You were there for the start of consistent games, but I think having the Giants here has helped cement routine AFL attendance. It's still not the same as a real Canberran team, but I think the Giants have gathered better support than the Roos.

In your period, there was one Canberran drafted. Conversely, we've had nine Canberran men drafted since 2015.

In 2017, AFL Canberra had its most junior teams since 1984. Admittedly, that would be boosted by female participation, which wasn't really previously present, but I think overall, footy in Canberra has grown stronger in the past two decades.

But the biggest change since you've left is probably the population. Since 2002, the ACT has grown by about ~45%. It's added an entire Darwin. By 2033 (the earliest we could add a team), our population will be ~70% larger than it was in 2002.

I think there's enough room for all three, but I think the Brumbies would be the most vulnerable if an AFL team entered.

What happened to Rugby Union in this country?

Back when I lived in Sydney (1999-2007) you could tell that there was a class difference between the 2 codes, but it was still strong.

These days, it's almost like AFL has killed off Union.

 

[Coolangatta]

It could also be along the lines of, they know GWS will need Canberra, so for the foreseeable future, GWS has a foot in each city, and if the AFL is to go to 20, it has to be elsewhere.

No it doesn't, but unfortunately it could mean that Canberra might not enter the league in 2033 as I hope they would.

In my opinion, if the AFL really wants games in the ACT, NT, and NQ (apparently they don't this year), put teams there.

Stops Vic clubs from having to sell home games interstate. They've got regional Victoria if they want to sell games. Let them stay closer to home.

 

[Rob]

What happened to Rugby Union in this country?

Back when I lived in Sydney (1999-2007) you could tell that there was a class difference between the 2 codes, but it was still strong.

These days, it's almost like AFL has killed off Union.

I'm sure there are many people that could write a novel about it. TBH, it comes down to not having a strong marketable domestic product. If that existed then the fortunes of the national team become a lot less important. Going to Stan totally finished it off.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I'm sure there are many people that could write a novel about it. TBH, it comes down to not having a strong marketable domestic product. If that existed then the fortunes of the national team become a lot less important. Going to Stan totally finished it off.

There's an article here from 2021 about the subject. Pretty much talks about the class divide in rugby, and that the AFL has absorbed many union fans.

"If you were wondering where the NSW Waratahs’ fans are, go to the Swans [game]."

 

[Rob]

There's an article here from 2021 about the subject. Pretty much talks about the class divide in rugby, and that the AFL has absorbed many union fans.

"If you were wondering where the NSW Waratahs’ fans are, go to the Swans [game]."

A lot of that stuff is just anedotal though - in that case the argument appears to be "Waratahs crowds were well dressed, so were Swans crowds. Must be the same people".

Swans crowds haven't really changed much over the last couple of decades.

 

[Bjo187]

The sport became boring as batshit after England won the world cup in the early 2000s. They turned it into a defensive kicking game and everybody followed.

That, plus clubs from all over the world playing in what should have been a domestic competition, selling their product to the highest bidder and losing free to air tv time and news.ltd not pushing the sport and it basically disintegrated.

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Unfortunately behind a paywall, but positive piece about the Canberra GWS long term deal

'We have a really strong presence': Giants hit back at critics of Canberra deal

GWS return to Manuka Oval this weekend for the first time this year.

www.canberratimes.com.au

 

[Canberra Pear]

Unfortunately behind a paywall, but positive piece about the Canberra GWS long term deal

'We have a really strong presence': Giants hit back at critics of Canberra deal

GWS return to Manuka Oval this weekend for the first time this year.

www.canberratimes.com.au

For those without a Canberra Times subscription:

'We have a really strong presence in ACT': GWS Giants hit back at critics of rich Canberra deal​

What is $28.5 million really getting the ACT? The GWS Giants have hit back at criticism surrounding their rich deal to bring the AFL to Canberra, adamant their presence goes "far beyond" a handful of games at Manuka Oval.
The Giants return to Canberra when they host the Brisbane Lions on Saturday, marking the start of a new 10-year, $28.5 million agreement with the ACT government - a major rise on the last $23 million deal.

But the cost has caused simmering tension to reach boiling point with the Canberra Raiders and ACT Brumbies set to demand more money from the government, while fans have been dumbfounded by the decision to spike plans for a Civic stadium and instead provide more cash to a fly-in, fly-out team.

"We have a really strong presence in the ACT, not just Canberra but across the ACT, that stretches far beyond games that are being played," Giants chief operating officer James Avery said.
"We have community programs that we're rolling out 12 months of the year, there are pathways programs, an academy, community camps, there are a whole range of touchpoints in terms of men's and women's football in the territory.

"Our presence is far beyond the AFL and AFLW games played. Obviously they are a focal point of the agreement, and this weekend is no different.



"We're expecting a lot of people to turn out for what's going to be a very good game between the home side Giants, who are coming off a really good win on the weekend, and obviously the Lions, who are one of the teams everyone is tipping are going to be there at the end of the season.
"It will be a really exciting game on the weekend with a big crowd. Tickets sales are tracking very well."
Manuka Oval will host up to two AFLW premiership games per year and one men's pre-season match annually as part of the new deal, while the ACT government has the chance to purchase a fourth men's premiership game annually should the opportunity arise.
The ACT government's CBR brand logo is displayed on Giants playing guernseys, while the club has promised an increased level of engagement with the Canberra community after three years hampered by COVID-19.
"They were more than interrupted years. To not be able to have a presence in Canberra like we've had for the best part of a decade, during COVID which we are getting back to now, it was devastating for us," Avery said.


"To be able to get back to normal service and then some is really important. We love playing in Canberra, our players love playing there. We love being there and connecting with our supporters and members, our community partners.
"It's just an enormous part of who we are, so to not have that for a couple of years during COVID has been really disappointing for all of us."

Doesn't really say anything new, just the traditional pre-game-in-Canberra article.

Basically, some people are annoyed so much money goes to a "fly-in, fly-out team", then GWS says they do more than play a couple of games. Nothing new. Chat GPT could've regurgitated it from previous articles.

The below line was a bit disingenuous. It implies that the extra $500k a year to the Giants is somehow linked to them moving away from plans for a $700m stadium.

while fans have been dumbfounded by the decision to spike plans for a Civic stadium and instead provide more cash to a fly-in, fly-out team

I also thought this line below was funny. Showed the statement was still made from Sydney execs in their Sydney headquarters.

"We have a really strong presence in the ACT, not just Canberra but across the ACT, that stretches far beyond games that are being played," Giants chief operating officer James Avery said.

There would be less than 1,000 people in the ACT, that wouldn't be considered in Canberra. I assume he meant something like "not just in the ACT/Canberra, but across the Capital Region/Southern NSW". It's only a small comment, but the fact that he worded it like that shows he doesn't think about Canberra very often.

But all-in-all, the weather looks good for Saturday. Fingers crossed we get a decent crowd!

 

[MelbourneGWS]

Basically, some people are annoyed so much money goes to a "fly-in, fly-out team", then GWS says they do more than play a couple of games. Nothing new. Chat GPT could've regurgitated it from previous articles.

The below line was a bit disingenuous. It implies that the extra $500k a year to the Giants is somehow linked to them moving away from plans for a $700m stadium.
I also thought this line below was funny. Showed the statement was still made from Sydney execs in their Sydney headquarters.
There would be less than 1,000 people in the ACT, that wouldn't be considered in Canberra. I assume he meant something like "not just in the ACT/Canberra, but across the Capital Region/Southern NSW". It's only a small comment, but the fact that he worded it like that shows he doesn't think about Canberra very often.

But all-in-all, the weather looks good for Saturday. Fingers crossed we get a decent crowd!

Thanks for posting the article. Yes, nothing earth shattering! Agree, that blaming the $5m extra (over 10 years) for a new rectangular stadium is a bit of a stretch!

Hope we get over 10,000 which would be more than what Giants got in our two matches in Sydney so far. It is school holidays but this game has been designated as a Recruit game with free tickets for accompanying adults.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Thanks for posting the article. Yes, nothing earth shattering! Agree, that blaming the $5m extra (over 10 years) for a new rectangular stadium is a bit of a stretch!

Hope we get over 10,000 which would be more than what Giants got in our two matches in Sydney so far. It is school holidays but this game has been designated as a Recruit game with free tickets for accompanying adults.

I'd definitely hope for 10k.

But Brisbane were one of our lower drawers last year. I don't except many travelling fans. I don't know if the Lions have many travelling fans, and any fans willing to travel interstate probably spent all of their travelling money at Gather Round.

Should be a good day of footy regardless.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

I'd definitely hope for 10k.

But Brisbane were one of our lower drawers last year. I don't except many travelling fans. I don't know if the Lions have many travelling fans, and any fans willing to travel interstate probably spent all of their travelling money at Gather Round.

Should be a good day of footy regardless.

Well lucky for me I moved to Canberra early this year (even if the profile says otherwise), so there will be at least 1 Brisbane Lions supporter watching at Manuka Oval on Saturday and it’s gonna be a good game

 

[Canberra Pear]

Well lucky for me I moved to Canberra early this year (even if the profile says otherwise), so there will be at least 1 Brisbane Lions supporter watching at Manuka Oval on Saturday and it’s gonna be a good game

That's handy! Welcome! Definitely a shorter commute than most Lions fans.

Are you planning on becoming a long-term Ken Behren?

 

[MelbourneGWS]

I'd definitely hope for 10k.

But Brisbane were one of our lower drawers last year. I don't except many travelling fans. I don't know if the Lions have many travelling fans, and any fans willing to travel interstate probably spent all of their travelling money at Gather Round.

Should be a good day of footy regardless.

Note that we only have played Brisbane just once in Canberra. The 9010 we got for that match was when it was played during the Winter in July. The Giants are trying to have an annual Anzac Day round in Canberra, and the crowd since 2019 has been at least more than 10,000.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Note that we only have played Brisbane just once in Canberra. The 9010 we got for that match was when it was played during the Winter in July. The Giants are trying to have an annual Anzac Day round in Canberra, and the crowd since 2019 has been at least more than 10,000.

Good points. We should get 10-12k, just tempering my own expectations.

 

[Cubs2Lions]

That's handy! Welcome! Definitely a shorter commute than most Lions fans.

Are you planning on becoming a long-term Ken Behren?

Maybe but at the same time, I don’t really know given a whole heap of reasons outside of my control and especially given I’m only a student (higher education), I can’t really afford anything myself (and my generation) in Canberra given the current climate we live in.

I did live in Canberra though between 2017 - 2020 so it’s not my first rodeo living in Canberra and have watch the Giants at Manuka Oval a couple of times during that period as well, so gonna be weird supporting the opposition side for once here.

Should be a good match against the Giants tomorrow though and I can’t wait to be there

 

[kranger]

If we ignore the fact there seems to be no appetite from the ACT government to build a new rectangle or oval stadium.

If it was decided to build a new CBD Stadium, what are the options?

Would there be any backlash to building on the foreshore to the lake on either of the sides of Commonwealth Ave?

What about the cricket field on Barry Drive?

 

[Canberra Pear]

If we ignore the fact there seems to be no appetite from the ACT government to build a new rectangle or oval stadium.

If it was decided to build a new CBD Stadium, what are the options?

I've gone with some colour-coding to some people context. I coloured Manuka Oval in light blue for comparison.

The darker blue is where the Civic stadium was theoretically going to be built. The site is too small for an oval stadium. It's pretty much too small for a rectangular stadium. They were going to have to settle for a lower capacity.

Would there be any backlash to building on the foreshore to the lake on either of the sides of Commonwealth Ave?

There would be backlash if you built in the purple spot. That's Commonwealth Park and hosts a bunch of festivals. The other side of the road is a bit thin, but it's slated for apartments.

I've actually considered the yellow area as potential if we had a benevolent billionaire. It's currently a waste of prime foreshore real estate with a cloverleaf road formation. If they restructured that intersection, it'd make a nice central spot for a stadium, with the light rail stopping right outside. Decent parking in the Parliamentary Triangle opposite, too.

What about the cricket field on Barry Drive?

That's in red. It's not something that I'm aware has ever been considered. I think it'd be a tight squeeze, but I think it could be done. You can't see in this pic, but there's a creek running to the east. Not too much really close parking, but could utilise parking at the Canberra Centre about 1km away. Would only be about 400m from the light rail stop. And the food and drink options beforehand would be incredible, very close to Lonsdale Street.

If we're ignoring budgets, political will and NIMBYs, I'd love this option.

 

[sverik25]

I've gone with some colour-coding to some people context. I coloured Manuka Oval in light blue for comparison.

The darker blue is where the Civic stadium was theoretically going to be built. The site is too small for an oval stadium. It's pretty much too small for a rectangular stadium. They were going to have to settle for a lower capacity.

View attachment 1674080



There would be backlash if you built in the purple spot. That's Commonwealth Park and hosts a bunch of festivals. The other side of the road is a bit thin, but it's slated for apartments.

I've actually considered the yellow area as potential if we had a benevolent billionaire. It's currently a waste of prime foreshore real estate with a cloverleaf road formation. If they restructured that intersection, it'd make a nice central spot for a stadium, with the light rail stopping right outside. Decent parking in the Parliamentary Triangle opposite, too.



That's in red. It's not something that I'm aware has ever been considered. I think it'd be a tight squeeze, but I think it could be done. You can't see in this pic, but there's a creek running to the east. Not too much really close parking, but could utilise parking at the Canberra Centre about 1km away. Would only be about 400m from the light rail stop. And the food and drink options beforehand would be incredible, very close to Lonsdale Street.

If we're ignoring budgets, political will and NIMBYs, I'd love this option.

Surely the National Capital Authority would never allow the yellow or purple options though.

 

[kranger]

I've gone with some colour-coding to some people context. I coloured Manuka Oval in light blue for comparison.

View attachment 1674080


That's in red. It's not something that I'm aware has ever been considered. I think it'd be a tight squeeze, but I think it could be done. You can't see in this pic, but there's a creek running to the east. Not too much really close parking, but could utilise parking at the Canberra Centre about 1km away. Would only be about 400m from the light rail stop. And the food and drink options beforehand would be incredible, very close to Lonsdale Street.

If we're ignoring budgets, political will and NIMBYs, I'd love this option.

Here is a good way to frame the City with a sports stadium on either side, that brings people into the city over weekends.

It also provides a new stadium for the rectangle and the oval codes making everyone happy except the territory’s treasurer.

What if the new oval stadium went into Turner Parkland / ANU North Oval where you circled red and I’ve circled purple. And then a new rectangle stadium goes into Braddon Park / Northbourne Oval which I’ve circled in blue.

Whilst trying to find out the names of the two grass patches, I saw that Braddon Park has recently been redeveloped as the HQ for the Canberra Raiders. Though it might be a bit small of a site for a rectangle stadium.

 

[Consolaçao]

Let’s see how this second division goes first. They seem to think it will be the golden goose for Aussie soccer, although it could also be an unmitigated financial disaster for the sport. It’s feasible for the whole thing to fall over before the Giants 10 year Canberra deal is up.

Soccer in Australia seems to think it can expand its way out of trouble. The new teams in Sydney and Melbourne have failed to attract any real interest operating in the 'big league'. What happens when they go spend a few years down in Div 2?
Obviously soccer has realised the establishment of plastic franchises will only get you so far and that they need to tap their historical ethnic base to breathe new life into the sport.
There is something to that.. recent AFL experience has to some extent shown the shortfalls of a 'franchise model' in Australian sport. How could a Canberra team meaningfully tap into the history of the sport in the territory? IS there a current team/s that could form the basis of a new team's identity?

 

[Consolaçao]

I contacted the Sounding Board with Damo and Hutchy about Canberra getting the next team.

This was their response on air:



I also contacted Nat Edwards. She said:



The prevailing opinion of AFL journos seems to be the NT, which I find a bit confusing. I get that it's publicly popular, but I don't get how anybody with a supposedly intimate knowledge of the footy landscape can think that it's feasible. Is it just because they're all in the same circles so they regurgitate it once the idea is out there?

Yes, I'm biased towards a Canberra side, but none of them even raised WA3, which is still a much better option than the NT.

While Canberra would absolutely get behind a team better than the NT, we're too quiet about it. Too many polite public servants. We really somebody to commission a feasibility study to show how well a team would likely do.

Interesting.

Darwin has a population of 140,000 and code allegiance is somewhat split between footy and RL.

Meanwhile Hobart has a population of 230,000, and pretty good access to a further 300,000 potential fans elsewhere in teh state. Despite this, I reckon if Tassie can manage average crowds of 15,000, they'll be doing well.

Darwin on the other hand is totally isolated. It has no hinterland population to fall back on.

If people are happy with long-term average crowds of 7-8,000, Darwin's a good option. Also prepare for a heap of scrappy dew-impacted night games.

There are benefits to Darwin in that it supports a more expansive national footprint, and would smooth the way to federal support given the direct benefits to aboriginal communities. Inclusion of Cairns in some way is interesting too. It has a relatively established footy culture (relative to the rest of QLD) and would allow the AFL to stake a meaningful claim outside of the state's SE corner.

To be honest, I think there's a pretty strong case for either Canberra or a northern team.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Soccer in Australia seems to think it can expand its way out of trouble. The new teams in Sydney and Melbourne have failed to attract any real interest operating in the 'big league'. What happens when they go spend a few years down in Div 2?
Obviously soccer has realised the establishment of plastic franchises will only get you so far and that they need to tap their historical ethnic base to breathe new life into the sport.
There is something to that.. recent AFL experience has to some extent shown the shortfalls of a 'franchise model' in Australian sport. How could a Canberra team meaningfully tap into the history of the sport in the territory? IS there a current team/s that could form the basis of a new team's identity?

Couldn’t agree more. Most people aren’t stupid and they realise that a proper club like South Melbourne has so much more going for it than a travelling circus like Western United. However, wait until soccer bring the traditional clubs back into the fold and the ethnic violence likely kicks off on the national stage again. They’re kind of damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

IMO a Canberra club should tap into the NSW/ACT Rams identity and prepare a joint venture with Southern NSW. E.g. Canberra-Riverina Rams (9 games Canberra, 2 games Wagga). There are detractors who say you can’t have a team called the RAMS because of the AFLW but who gives a shit, call the women’s team the Ewes if it bothers people so much.

 

[Cunnington Cartel]

Interesting.

Darwin has a population of 140,000 and code allegiance is somewhat split between footy and RL.

Meanwhile Hobart has a population of 230,000, and pretty good access to a further 300,000 potential fans elsewhere in teh state. Despite this, I reckon if Tassie can manage average crowds of 15,000, they'll be doing well.

Darwin on the other hand is totally isolated. It has no hinterland population to fall back on.

If people are happy with long-term average crowds of 7-8,000, Darwin's a good option. Also prepare for a heap of scrappy dew-impacted night games.

There are benefits to Darwin in that it supports a more expansive national footprint, and would smooth the way to federal support given the direct benefits to aboriginal communities. Inclusion of Cairns in some way is interesting too. It has a relatively established footy culture (relative to the rest of QLD) and would allow the AFL to stake a meaningful claim outside of the state's SE corner.

To be honest, I think there's a pretty strong case for either Canberra or a northern team.

There’s a strong case for the NT in several areas, except the most important one, economic. This alone should eliminate them from the race in this round of expansion and that’s before you consider the other major problems like climate, player retention, facilities etc.