Cannons' List Evaluation

[cannons]

I think the word you should be using is experience, Bruce is not a leader, he has experience and is a good role model but he does not have leadership capacity.

As a role model you surely have some degree of leadership, as you influence those around you.

But you are right though, he isn't a leader in the truest sense. I think I may have been a bit generous labelling his leadership as a strength, although saying he has no leadership capacity is a bit over the top. To be named a club captain he must have some capability in that area, or at the very least embody the club's values better than most of his teammates.

 

[Bartram_Class]

Your the joke then.

McLean is easily the equal of Mitchell, Mitchell has the support to help him Brock doesnt.

It's actually "you're", but I digress.

Do you watch any football? Did you watch the game last night?

For a start, Mitchell is equally good on both sides, he's also much more agile and quicker than Brock (who as good as he is, lumbers along). Give me Mitchell any day of the week.

 

[Dez!]

It's actually "you're", but I digress.

Do you watch any football? Did you watch the game last night?

For a start, Mitchell is equally good on both sides, he's also much more agile and quicker than Brock (who as good as he is, lumbers along). Give me Mitchell any day of the week.

You do realise this is the same Sam Mitchell that butchers the ball by foot every time he kicks the thing right?

 

[Bartram_Class]

You do realise this is the same Sam Mitchell that butchers the ball by foot every time he kicks the thing right?

He's no Luke Hodge, but lets be honest, nor is Brock.

 

[Dez!]

He's no Luke Hodge, but lets be honest, nor is Brock.

Never said Brock or Mitchell were, just pointing out the fact that Mitchell is overrated.

He's good, not great.

 

[Bartram_Class]

Never said Brock or Mitchell were, just pointing out the fact that Mitchell is overrated.

He's good, not great.

He could be the premiership captain by this time next week.

How many merely "good" players can claim that?

He's not elite, but hes still great. In the best 20 in the comp for mine.

 

[Beats]

He could be the premiership captain by this time next week.

How many merely "good" players can claim that?

He's not elite, but hes still great. In the best 20 in the comp for mine.

Tom Harley? He is by no means elite.

Mclean = Mitchell, and next year will probably have overtaken him.
It should be noted that Mitchell is 3 or so years Mcleans senior, and that Mclean is now entering his prime while Mitchell has been there for the past 3 years.

They both play the same style of game, high possessions and clearances, low speed.
Mclean is slightly more damaging while Mitchell gets a few more possessions, it should also be noted that Mitchell has a better group around him, so he is under less pressure than Mclean.

 

[dee-molishon]

It's actually "you're", but I digress.

Do you watch any football? Did you watch the game last night?

For a start, Mitchell is equally good on both sides, he's also much more agile and quicker than Brock (who as good as he is, lumbers along). Give me Mitchell any day of the week.

Yes i did watch the game last night, mitchell was his usual self got plenty of the ball but what does that mean??

Brock has the ability to hurt the opposition with long kicks or passes into the 50 that hit lead up fowards, Mitchell has the ability win clearances (which he is very good at) and chip the ball side ways 10 metres and give of handballs to guys who use the footy better than he does.

He is so overrated its insane, swap Mitchell into our side for Brock and you would see the equivelent of a younger version of James McDonald.
And people at hawthorn would be debating who is better Hodge or McLean.

You obviously look at stats alot b.c and get caught up in numbers like alot of other fools, its like saying Joel Corey is better than Gary Ablett who gives a crap how much you get of it, its what you do with it.

And Mitchell being quick and agile?? Never thought id see the day someone would suggest that, show me one passage of play were Mitchell actually bounces the ball twice on the run.
Id say he has good vision, Brock is easily as quick and agile as Mitchell.

 

[dee-molishon]

He could be the premiership captain by this time next week.

How many merely "good" players can claim that?

He's not elite, but hes still great. In the best 20 in the comp for mine.

lol just saw you had already said that beats but yes i agree Tom Harley, just a good average player.

John Worsfold good average player is another.

Both fantastic leaders and motivators but just good players.

Just because Mitchell has the (c) next to his name doesnt mean jack shit, everyone who watches and see's hawthorn play realises Luke Hodge does all the talking in the huddles and the inspirational stuff, he is their true leader and a definate A Grader

 

[whelan=legend]

Im just going to put it this way, i think we're all forgetting how good McLean really is. BC do yourself a favour and watch the Freo match this year or even the QB match.

Even the Hawks matches. The first time we played them he was our only player that broke even in a 100 point demolishon, and then in round 9 he was the reason we even came close.

 

[dee-molishon]

Im just going to put it this way, i think we're all forgetting how good McLean really is. BC do yourself a favour and watch the Freo match this year or even the QB match.

Even the Hawks matches. The first time we played them he was our only player that broke even in a 100 point demolishon, and then in round 9 he was the reason we even came close.

Your dead set right whelan, have a look at the last quarter in the st.kilda elemination final. Give me a quarter where Mitchell has stood up pretty much on his loansome and won the game for Hawthorn, its never happened.

 

[RandB]

Awareness and decision making are totally mental. They relate to how one's mind processes its environment, and then responds to it. Every action in football stems from a mental response.

I think this is complicating things.

You highlight a mental issue with Bell and rightly so but it has nothing to do with decision making or awareness. In the truest sense of mental, ie what is going on in his head it is is confidence that is the issue. Compare Daniel Bell this year to last year. He didn't just take on a mental deficiency this year where he was no longer aware of his surroundings or couldn't process the environment anymore.

What has happened is that his confidence has taken a battering and as a result he isn't playing strong positive football. He got caught too often and yes his decision making was poor but they both stemmed from his lack of confidence. Any player when they lose confidence end up making mistakes and then by not taking the game on with conviction it is like they are playing with the weight of the world on their shoulders. The Collingwood game this year best illustrates this for Bell.

 

[cannons]

I think this is complicating things.

You highlight a mental issue with Bell and rightly so but it has nothing to do with decision making or awareness. In the truest sense of mental, ie what is going on in his head it is is confidence that is the issue. Compare Daniel Bell this year to last year. He didn't just take on a mental deficiency this year where he was no longer aware of his surroundings or couldn't process the environment anymore.

What has happened is that his confidence has taken a battering and as a result he isn't playing strong positive football. He got caught too often and yes his decision making was poor but they both stemmed from his lack of confidence. Any player when they lose confidence end up making mistakes and then by not taking the game on with conviction it is like they are playing with the weight of the world on their shoulders. The Collingwood game this year best illustrates this for Bell.

So you are just adding to my point essentially. You just add the layer of confidence, which alters the mental response which, in turn, leads to an action.

If so, I agree, but to say it has nothing to do with awareness and decision making is incorrect. There is only so much a lack of confidence can account for. Its like saying everyone has the same ability in these two areas, and confidence is the only thing which differentiates that ability. Even when he is confident, I doubt he will ever have the ability to assess the environment and respond to it as well as a Travis Johnstone (for example).

 

[RandB]

So you are just adding to my point essentially. You just add the layer of confidence, which alters the mental response which, in turn, leads to an action.

I'm not adding to your point at all. I am clarifying where the mental issue lies with Daniel Bell. Those other things like awareness and decision making are just some areas amongst many others which can be symptoms of a lack of confidence. You are implying that they them selves are mental factors which is over stating it. By the way you refer to my confidence point simply as an "extra layer" I think you miss the point. Confidence is everything. I ask you this, do you think that Bell's awareness and decision making can improve whilst his confidence is rock bottom? If your answer is no then you are actually agreeing with me even if you don't admit it. By hypothesis, if Bell did not have a confidence issue then his lack of awareness could only be attributed as either lack of concentration or focus but given that he did not have these isolated deficiencies last year then this simply does not make sense.

There is only so much a lack of confidence can account for. Its like saying everyone has the same ability in these two areas, and confidence is the only thing which differentiates that ability.

Hang on, we aren't talking about every footballer in general, we are talking about Bell. Obviously I am not suggesting that confidence is the only difference between players at all. However if we rest on your arguement then why didn't Bell come under scrutiny for his decision making last year? I'll tell you, because there wasn't any issue with his decision making.

Even when he is confident, I doubt he will ever have the ability to assess the environment and respond to it as well as a Travis Johnstone (for example).

Irrelevant. It is a plain and simple fact that some players have that little bit more instinct than others - so what? It doesn't mean that Bell has some sort of inexplicable mental issue in the form of poor awareness.

At the risk of this coming down to a word game I will point out where we differ. You say lack of confidence alters the mental response, I say (regarding DB) lack of confidence is the mental factor that effects his choices.

At the end of the day the final result of Bell's game may be the same but considering you did not mention anything about his confidence I thought you were trivialising things a bit. Remember, lack of confidence can effect many aspects of a players game like kicking, leaving their opponent, marking big name players or going back into packs but on their own they are not considered "mental" issues and IMO awareness is no different.

Just my opinion.

 

[cannons]

At the risk of this coming down to a word game I will point out where we differ. You say lack of confidence alters the mental response, I say (regarding DB) lack of confidence is the mental response. At the end of the day the final result of Bell's game may be the same but considering you did not mention anything about his confidence I thought you were trivialising things a bit.

Just my opinion.

How can lack of confidence be a mental response? It is something which can create an indecisiveness for a player when making a decision or summing up a situation. Therefore, it alters the mental response made in a given situation. Confidence is more a state of mind to me, and the quality of decision making may be impacted upon by it.

I accept and understand your opinion, and it certainly carries as much weight as anyone else's. I don't totally disagree, confidence is a factor, but it is not the total issue. You can be super confident and still make bad choices, some people just don't make decisions as well as others.

I guess we are arguing over nuances at the moment.....but it is interesting to hear different perspecitves on a given issue.

On a side note, I'll be posting the evaluations of Simon Buckley and Nathan Carroll later today

 

[RandB]

How can lack of confidence be a mental response? It is something which can create an indecisiveness for a player when making a decision or summing up a situation. Therefore, it alters the mental response made in a given situation. Confidence is more a state of mind to me, and the quality of decision making may be impacted upon by it.

I actually edited my post to read "mental factor" as that makes my point clearer.
I guess it comes down to how you want to use the word mental. To me, mental means state of mind which is a term you used as well with confidence. I think to analyse each and every decision a player makes as a mental response is getting a bit technical. Technically you could argue scratching your ass is a mental response but it is not the level that I use the term mental. If a person is suicidal then that is the mental factor IMO, the fact they drove of a cliff is not a mental response it is just a response. Being suicidal is the mental response to their life being in tatters. You could argue that kicking backwards to a stationary player with an opponent baring down on them is a bad decision much like driving off a cliff.

"Confidence is more a state of mind to me, and the quality of decision making may be impacted upon by it." - Exactly what I have been saying but I liken state of mind to being the actual mental factor not the bad decision.

I accept and understand your opinion, and it certainly carries as much weight as anyone else's. I don't totally disagree, confidence is a factor, but it is not the total issue. You can be super confident and still make bad choices, some people just don't make decisions as well as others.

That is for sure, there are probably quite a few players out there who are confident but make bad decisions but in fairness we are talking about a specific player in Daniel Bell who's 2008 was nothing like his 2007. His confidence was shot this year and aspects of his game dropped off accordingly like awareness. He had good awareness last year IMO.

I guess we are arguing over nuances at the moment.....but it is interesting to hear different perspecitves on a given issue.

yeah we are, poor ol' Marns has to read through all of this stuff for moderation purposes lol he must be wondering why we are doing this to him.

On a side note, I'll be posting the evaluations of Simon Buckley and Nathan Carroll later today

Looking forward to that as well, I agree with most of what you have posted. Good work.

 

[booshboy]

atm i think Mitchell is a better player than McLean but i think McLean will be better you have to remember McLean is younger and is always getting injured, if Brock could do a full pre-season than playout a full season he'd be better than Mitchel IMO.

 

[cannons]

Simon Buckley

Current Ability: B-
Buckley managed 14 matches for the year, and provided one of the few reasons for excitement amongst Melbourne fans. He averaged 21 disposals per match, which was an excellent return for a player with his experience. He was utilised mainly in the half-back position, but also spent some time on the wing.

Strengths:
- Pace
- Reads the play well
- Ball winner
- Bold style of play (i.e. takes on defenders)
- Good size
- Flair
- Long kick

Weaknesses:
- Kicking accuracy
- Decision making
- Accountability

Potential Ability: A
I know this is high but I really believe he could be a top-line player. He has all of the necessary characteristics of a match winner. The first key area he needs to work on is kicking. There is no doubt that he has a long/penetrating kick, but accuracy and effectiveness are issues for him here. As he seems to be more of an outside player, this facet of the game is crucial for his development.

The second key area is decision making. There are times when he is too eager to receive a handball and calls for it when he is under pressure. In addition, he doesn’t always make great decisions when disposing of the ball. This should improve with experience at AFL level, and whilst it is great to see him break the lines with his pace, he just needs to evaluate his options more clearly on occasion.

I think he has the talent to improve on these areas, especially decision making. Kicking is a hard one to judge as technique becomes autonomous and requires many hours of work to modify, but he has all the time in the world to improve on this.

His weaknesses are exaggerated at times due to his style of play, as he is often moving at pace when he disposes of the ball.

Trade Value: 2nd rounder, but his name shouldn’t be brought into discussions during trade week.

If he can attend to his weaknesses and enhance his efficiency, his game will improve hugely. He has a lot of potential and could become a leading midfielder for Melbourne, and a player that compliments our other midfielders well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Nathan Carroll

Current Ability: D+
Carroll featured in 9 matches this year, but was largely overlooked in favour of Melbourne’s developing defenders. He averaged 13 disposals in an uneventful year.

Strengths:
- Works Hard during matches
- Strong will (i.e. doesn’t stop trying)
- I’m struggling to find any more

Weaknesses:
- Lacks professionalism
- Size
- Physical attributes aren’t outstanding
- Kicking

Potential Ability: D+ (in decline)
Nathan has probably reached his potential, and doesn’t have much scope for future development.

Assuming he stays on next year and isn’t paid out, he will face an uphill battle to attain a place in the side.

Trade Value: Pick 495

Carroll has been serviceable for Melbourne, and his performance is 2006 was exceptional. However, with the club’s young and developing defence, in conjunction with his stagnation and unprofessionalism, Nathan’s opportunities will be limited next season.

 

[AFL is Number One]

Your the joke then.

McLean is easily the equal of Mitchell, Mitchell has the support to help him Brock doesnt.

Guys...do not kid your selves on Brock McLean...currently he is NOWHERE near the likes of Mitchell and Co.

McLean has a lot of ground to catch up on within the club. He is a noted "big head" within the player group and is by far the most unpopular player within the Club. In fact one player has already indicated he .."would like to punch his lights out..." unquote.

Take this as fact.

So...don't get your hopes up re McLean. He has a lot to improve ...on & OFF the field.

 

[dee-molishon]

Very accurate report on carroll and buckley cannons.

But....for arguments sake i will say buckley has a potential but not A potential, i would think he could improve maybe C+ to B at best.

Carroll weakness' should have also included cannott handle the drink, likes to get team mates involved in fracars.

Other than that good job

 

[dee-molishon]

Guys...do not kid your selves on Brock McLean...currently he is NOWHERE near the likes of Mitchell and Co.

McLean has a lot of ground to catch up on within the club. He is a noted "big head" within the player group and is by far the most unpopular player within the Club. In fact one player has already indicated he .."would like to punch his lights out..." unquote.

Take this as fact.

So...don't get your hopes up re McLean. He has a lot to improve ...on & OFF the field.

We are not talking about off field indiscretions and how liked he is by joe blow here numb nuts we are talking about his footballing ability. And that is easily the equal if not more influential than Mitchell's.

 

[cannons]

Very accurate report on carroll and buckley cannons.

But....for arguments sake i will say buckley has a potential but not A potential, i would think he could improve maybe C+ to B at best.

Carroll weakness' should have also included cannott handle the drink, likes to get team mates involved in fracars.

Other than that good job

Thanks for the feedback

I can see how you would disagree with my assessment of Buckley's potential, as its pretty high, but I just see a lot of positive things in his game. He might never reach that potential but I certainly think its there.

Yeah, I was thinking of listing all of Carroll's individual weaknesses, but I thought I would encapsulate all of them under the banner of 'lacks professionalism' or else I would've been writing all day

Guys...do not kid your selves on Brock McLean...currently he is NOWHERE near the likes of Mitchell and Co.

McLean has a lot of ground to catch up on within the club. He is a noted "big head" within the player group and is by far the most unpopular player within the Club. In fact one player has already indicated he .."would like to punch his lights out..." unquote.

Take this as fact.

So...don't get your hopes up re McLean. He has a lot to improve ...on & OFF the field.

Why would I do that? Give me a good reason to do so.

I would say he's on a similar level to Mitchell in terms of playing ability.

 

[whelan=legend]

Guys...do not kid your selves on Brock McLean...currently he is NOWHERE near the likes of Mitchell and Co.

McLean has a lot of ground to catch up on within the club. He is a noted "big head" within the player group and is by far the most unpopular player within the Club. In fact one player has already indicated he .."would like to punch his lights out..." unquote.

Take this as fact.

So...don't get your hopes up re McLean. He has a lot to improve ...on & OFF the field.

Haha mate you got no idea. I am very good mates with the cousin of a player (when have i ever made shit up, i'm being serious) and i know that McLean is well liked (McLean and Rivers best mates, share a house together), and suprisingly when i asked who is the most talented or who could go the furthest the answer was Sylvia.

 

[dee-molishon]

Haha mate you got no idea. I am very good mates with the cousin of a player (when have i ever made shit up, i'm being serious) and i know that McLean is well liked (McLean and Rivers best mates, share a house together), and suprisingly when i asked who is the most talented or who could go the furthest the answer was Sylvia.

jesus, no wonder we finished 16th.

 

[whelan=legend]

jesus, no wonder we finished 16th.

Sylvia will be a gun, and when he does i will bump this and give you the

have a look at ya now