Captain VB

[1970crow]

I hear his teammates speak highly of him and he is well spoken and he may be a good leader on the field but I don't think he has what gives the team inspiration or a "lift" as he did in his early days as captain.

I would not be surprised if he relinquished the captaincy to try and return to being the player he was (good gritty midfielder).
This was discussed with mates last night, some agreed, some strongly disagreed.

paul roos may be a bit of a tool and we can argue whether he's right or wrong on this. one of the generic ads on fox footy, I think it is about endorsing their 'expert' analysis credentials, has paul roos speaking about what leadership is. it's something about leadership being about doing the right thing at the right time on the field. whatever the exact words of it, every time I see/hear it I think, gee that's not our captain's form of leadership. his is more like triggy's successes as ceo. we mortals can't see it because it all happens behind the scenes where there is apparently no evidence of it unless you were there to witness it in the first hand. he must be an amazing captain off field because he's become an abject failure on it.

 

[Sanders]

Just natural progression.

Progression of what?

 

[King Elvis]

I think I agree with Alex.

I would've preferred Truck or Thommo as our Captain over VB - but I think he was a reasonable choice at the time; he was arguably our best leader.

He's not anymore - those behind him have overtaken him, so when the position is reviewed, they should replace him.

 

[alex_is_on_fire]

Progression of what?

moving from one captain to another.

The club us just ready to move on. But like how Sam Mitchell was ready to hand the captain over to Luke Hodge.

 

[Sanders]

moving from one captain to another.

The club us just ready to move on. But like how Sam Mitchell was ready to hand the captain over to Luke Hodge.

Whilst i'll argue this is long overdue, I don't see how VB is the unquestioned best right now, but won't be in a few months

There is an inherent contradiction I can't reconcile.

 

[1970crow]

Whilst i'll argue this is long overdue, I don't see how VB is the unquestioned best right now, but won't be in a few months

There is an inherent contradiction I can't reconcile.

it can't be reconciled. our greatest fear for our captain, he's turned into cassisi. if it wasn't for (c) next to his name, he'd be lucky to be in the team. he'll be happier next year when that isn't the case and he earns his spot on merit. sadly he's done in the midfield, so hendo will now need both reilly and vb to be injured to not be lining up in the sanfl each weekend. can't complain, we're a damn sight better opting for experience over actual talent and output.

 

[King Elvis]

Whilst i'll argue this is long overdue, I don't see how VB is the unquestioned best right now, but won't be in a few months

There is an inherent contradiction I can't reconcile.

Because he isn't now, except by a select few.

Even those who rate him, it's no slur on VB to suggest that Danger is better suited to being our Captain next year.

 

[Mattrox]

it can't be reconciled. our greatest fear for our captain, he's turned into cassisi. if it wasn't for (c) next to his name, he'd be lucky to be in the team. he'll be happier next year when that isn't the case and he earns his spot on merit. sadly he's done in the midfield, so hendo will now need both reilly and vb to be injured to not be lining up in the sanfl each weekend. can't complain, we're a damn sight better opting for experience over actual talent and output.

That is far from the truth that it's not funny.

He has been in the top 3 tacklers for the last 3 games. Didn't bother going back further. He gathers enough possession while tagging to be useful. In a side where as a board we complain about tackling a top 3 tackler is NOT going to be dropped.

This is just an excuse by fans who want a different captain.

I suspect the main reason people want a different captain is more about image than actual leadership. Fans want a captain to represent them in a way they think a footballer "should be".

His spot is safe in the side and despite naysayers its not only because of the (c) next to his name.

It's an easy argument to make, not best 22 therefore shouldn't be captain. But it just isn't the truth.

 

[Sanders]

That is far from the truth that it's not funny.

He has been in the top 3 tacklers for the last 3 games. Didn't bother going back further. He gathers enough possession while tagging to be useful. In a side where as a board we complain about tackling a top 3 tackler is NOT going to be dropped.

This is just an excuse by fans who want a different captain.

I suspect the main reason people want a different captain is more about image than actual leadership. Fans want a captain to represent them in a way they think a footballer "should be".

His spot is safe in the side and despite naysayers its not only because of the (c) next to his name.

It's an easy argument to make, not best 22 therefore shouldn't be captain. But it just isn't the truth.

That's it? You're making the argument that he stays in the team because he's made some tackles recently?

Pretty thin I reckon

 

[Mattrox]

That's it? You're making the argument that he stays in the team because he's made some tackles recently?

Pretty thin I reckon

Recently? How about you do some research to put up an argument based on facts. A couple loose disposals don't cut it as an argument because even our best player makes a turnover or 2 a game.

VB is regularly in our best tacklers. Last year he topped the list. This year he is 7th and averages 17.4 disposals. In a team which is down on form and himself have some poor games he is still a long long way from getting dropped.

I'm simply saying the argument that "he shouldn't be captain because he should be dropped" is fundamentally flawed.

 

[1970crow]

don't forget he also gathers enough possessions to be useful. no discussion on how he uses it. so a few tackles, useful possession numbers and there's our captain for as far as the eye can see. gee, even vb's supporters aren't exactly glowing in their praise. kind of runs parallel to the triggy's a great ceo argument.

 

[Sanders]

Recently? How about you do some research to put up an argument based on facts..

Huh?

You made the argument about 3 posts ago talking about the last 3 games cause you couldn't be arsed going back further.

And you complain because I paraphrased you as "recently"?

C'mon get real

 

[Tex200]

Recently? How about you do some research to put up an argument based on facts. A couple loose disposals don't cut it as an argument because even our best player makes a turnover or 2 a game.

VB is regularly in our best tacklers. Last year he topped the list. This year he is 7th and averages 17.4 disposals. In a team which is down on form and himself have some poor games he is still a long long way from getting dropped.

I'm simply saying the argument that "he shouldn't be captain because he should be dropped" is fundamentally flawed.

I dont think anyone doubts hes an ok tagger. The problem is that because thats all he is, it makes it very difficult for him to be an on field leader in a playing sense (of coursed he can gee the players up and direct a bit of traffic possibly). The difficulty is inherent in the position he plays. Take Sunday for example. We desperately needed on field leadership, we needed our Captain to somehow have an influence, to put himself in a position to do something, anything , to calm the inexperienced players. The problem is VB cant do that, he's following someone else around.

Unfortunately we have to hide him as a tagger, tried him everywhere else. Your tagger is the player who can only influence a game to the extent he stops an opposition player, and in games like Sunday that simply is not enough.

 

[FR0GGY]

Recently? How about you do some research to put up an argument based on facts. A couple loose disposals don't cut it as an argument because even our best player makes a turnover or 2 a game.

VB is regularly in our best tacklers. Last year he topped the list. This year he is 7th and averages 17.4 disposals. In a team which is down on form and himself have some poor games he is still a long long way from getting dropped.

I'm simply saying the argument that "he shouldn't be captain because he should be dropped" is fundamentally flawed.

7th best tackler, as a tagger and a captain he should be no 1

 

[amer]

Hidden is a good word for it. He is hidden as a tagger; he's not a dominant tagger. He's not a particularly good tackler, he's clumsy, gives away easily avoidable frees, and as a thinker he is dumb as they come. Easily sold candy, easily negotiated, horrible at creating time and space for himself when he has the ball, and he telegraphs what he's going to do. Lots of smothered handballs and worm burning kicks because he gives his opponent too much notice to produce something clean.

His disposal efficiency stats, whenever good enough to use as a defense, are misleading too. His trademark as a ball user is picking the wrong option - he either turns it over, or he sells his team mate(s) into trouble. He often makes it a flat footed team mate's problem. It's infuriating watching him ruin good passages of play with horrible releases, poor timing of disposal or straight up shit execution. Time and time again, every week, every bloody time. He's also a prime offender for the match killing error - the glaring piece of crap after good work from team mates that palpably shifts the dynamic of the game into our opponent's court. He ended our season with this against Collingwood a few weeks ago.

He has no presence either. Especially not in the eyes and minds of the opposition. He is not intimidating, he has no weapons, and he doesn't unify or inspire our supporter base. The sole positive, it would seem, is the invisible stuff - and that's not even a sure positive, because we don't know how it is adding to or taking from our performances. Indeed, we are not to know his positives necessarily exist, for they are hidden. How appropriate a word. How inspiring.

Any success we have is in spite of him as captain, and in spite of our similarly dismal organisational competency, I feel. We have to wade through so much counterproductive shit to get a lick of the ice cream. That's why we can't win big finals.

 

[Sanders]

If you look at this:

http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/2013.html

Crouch has him covered in nearly every aspect after only 10 games.

Now obviously crouch is a plutonium grade prospect, but its only 10 games...

 

[amer]

It seems also that the people defending him forget, leave out that we as the supporters are the ones watching. We are football, the competition lives and can only live to serve us.

An uninspiring captain is bad for business.

 

[Mattrox]

Hidden is a good word for it. He is hidden as a tagger; he's not a dominant tagger. He's not a particularly good tackler, he's clumsy, gives away easily avoidable frees, and as a thinker he is dumb as they come. Easily sold candy, easily negotiated, horrible at creating time and space for himself when he has the ball, and he telegraphs what he's going to do. Lots of smothered handballs and worm burning kicks because he gives his opponent too much notice to produce something clean.

His disposal efficiency stats, whenever good enough to use as a defense, are misleading too. His trademark as a ball user is picking the wrong option - he either turns it over, or he sells his team mate(s) into trouble. He often makes it a flat footed team mate's problem. It's infuriating watching him ruin good passages of play with horrible releases, poor timing of disposal or straight up shit execution. Time and time again, every week, every bloody time. He's also a prime offender for the match killing error - the glaring piece of crap after good work from team mates that palpably shifts the dynamic of the game into our opponent's court. He ended our season with this against Collingwood a few weeks ago.

He has no presence either. Especially not in the eyes and minds of the opposition. He is not intimidating, he has no weapons, and he doesn't unify or inspire our supporter base. The sole positive, it would seem, is the invisible stuff - and that's not even a sure positive, because we don't know how it is adding to or taking from our performances. Indeed, we are not to know his positives necessarily exist, for they are hidden. How appropriate a word. How inspiring.

Any success we have is in spite of him as captain, and in spite of our similarly dismal organisational competency, I feel. We have to wade through so much counterproductive shit to get a lick of the ice cream. That's why we can't win big finals.

Yep VB is the sole reason we are shit.

He's up on contested possessions from last year.

Direct comparisons to players playing different role is also next to useless.

LJ is streets ahead on goal kicking two.

I'd reckon if you are going to assess a tagger a look at contested possessions and tackles is reasonable. And assess those stats in relation to the role played. Given that it is a nullifying role you do expect a reasonable tackle count. Remember CD's tackle count are those that actually stick.... result in a stoppage or turnover....

 

[Sanders]

I'd reckon if you are going to assess a tagger a look at contested possessions and tackles is reasonable. And assess those stats in relation to the role played. Given that it is a nullifying role you do expect a reasonable tackle count. Remember CD's tackle count are those that actually stick.... result in a stoppage or turnover....

Crouch has him well covered in those 2 stats as well - 10 games vs 15

Plus Crouch playing a harder, more critical role in the guts.

 

[amer]

Yep VB is the sole reason we are shit.

He's up on contested possessions from last year.

Direct comparisons to players playing different role is also next to useless.

LJ is streets ahead on goal kicking two.

I'd reckon if you are going to assess a tagger a look at contested possessions and tackles is reasonable. And assess those stats in relation to the role played. Given that it is a nullifying role you do expect a reasonable tackle count. Remember CD's tackle count are those that actually stick.... result in a stoppage or turnover....

I thought I had crafted a winner coming up with such a list of flaws. Sadly, for me, and for others who hoped, van Berlo is up on contested possessions from last year.

 

[TFloyd]

Recently? How about you do some research to put up an argument based on facts. A couple loose disposals don't cut it as an argument because even our best player makes a turnover or 2 a game.

VB is regularly in our best tacklers. Last year he topped the list. This year he is 7th and averages 17.4 disposals. In a team which is down on form and himself have some poor games he is still a long long way from getting dropped.

I'm simply saying the argument that "he shouldn't be captain because he should be dropped" is fundamentally flawed.

All preseason the club talked about improving our tackling as a football side. So our captain, one of our most experienced players, who should be leading by example, also playing primarily as a tagger, i.e. an almost entirely defensive role for the majority of the game, in one of the worst tackling sides in the comp, is SEVENTH... And this is a good thing how?

 

[TFloyd]

On the flip side.. With dimwit at the helm and hell bent on steering the comp into the iceberg that is the rotation cap Players like VB with no burst speed to speak of but the ability to run all game could start dominating like the gut running midfielders of old.

 

[Dandy_GO]

All preseason the club talked about improving our tackling as a football side. So our captain, one of our most experienced players, who should be leading by example, also playing primarily as a tagger, i.e. an almost entirely defensive role for the majority of the game, in one of the worst tackling sides in the comp, is SEVENTH... And this is a good thing how?

Hey now - no shame in being behind David Mackay and Bernie Vince in the tackle count.

 

[Mattrox]

So the moment a Captain has a slump all of a sudden he's not a good Captain?

Vs Sydney and Collingwood You'd imagine a Captain would stand up wouldn't you? So I guess he's not really pulling his weight with an equal second tackle count of six vs Sydney. And against Collingwood he did poorly with a game high tackle count of 8?

No one is arguing that he hasn't been down on form this year. But his form is no where near bad enough that he'd be considered being dropped. His drop in DE from last year is partly drop in form and partly his role this year.

The calls for him to be dropped are based on image in many instances. Nothing to do with performance. Many of the same agruments about him being replaced as Captain were made last year. Last year he lead the team in tackles. And his disposal was more than acceptable.

If we conceed that errors were made in the preseason. And these errors have been a large factor in the loss of form across the team then blaming the captain for being shit is a bit misplaced. The blame lies with the coaches and football dept. Let's assume fitness was down early in the year, then we would hope that as the season presses on we would gain fitness. Players performances should improve. Vince who was woeful at the start has now strung together a some performances that have been more consistently pleasing. Mackay has been better, with his last game his best (fitness wise). Dangerfield looked underdone at the start, prior to his injury he stringing together some great games. Likewise VB's output had improved and since Collingwood he's found consistency. With a team trend like this shaper focus needs to be placed on the training regime preseason. We desperately need a much better preseason next year. It lays the foundation snd sets the tone for the year. There is a lot to answer for in the preseason.

Can I draw a long bow and blame Trigg? Lol being serious. The unsettled post season may have influenced the type of training. The photos from preseason show drills that help build teamwork and comraderie. Perhaps the football department focussed too much on this or perhaps it was needed. But this focus would only been given heavy emphasis given the fall out of Trigg's **** up.

Dangerfield will make a great Captain. But that doesn't mean VB has been a shit Captain.


Oh but that's right, if you don't rage at every club decision or criticize every move you are wrong.......

 

[Sanders]

So the moment a Captain has a slump all of a sudden he's not a good Captain?

Not sure anyone has said that

Vs Sydney and Collingwood You'd imagine a Captain would stand up wouldn't you? So I guess he's not really pulling his weight with an equal second tackle count of six vs Sydney. And against Collingwood he did poorly with a game high tackle count of 8?

To be fair the tackle thing is something you came up with.

But seeing as you did, he only had 9 tackles for the season to the end of round 10.

How do you feel about that?