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Captain VB

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Slippery Pete said:
It's a symbolic thing as much as any. Having Danger walking into the middle tossing that coin just sends all kinds of messages to the opposition. He is universally respected.

It's one of several symbolic decisions the club needs to make before the start of next year. The others are:

- more experienced support in the coaches box for Sanderson (ie - more Baileys, less Clarkes)

- a new CEO

-a new Footy Ops manager/media front man

-a board clean out.

Adelaide Oval is the chance for this club to move forward and have a fresh start, leaving behind the ugly dramas of the last few years.

What are the odds?
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**** me, we're sounding like Port 12 months ago
 
Elite Crow said:
He was on fire as a tagger towards the end of 09, he was cleaning up Judd and then hurt his back and missed the finals.

Every club needs a tagger, keeping VB in no mans land is just dumb. I just dont understand it. So frustrating to see such obvious moves not being made.
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It's often said that with the increase of 'zone' teams don't tag any more. I don't really buy that. You can still place people in certain positions within your zone with instructions to pay particular instructions to a certain player. It would be akin to saying that NFL defences don't need cornerbacks.
 
Southerntakeover said:
Actually, over the years he's done pretty good jobs on the likes of Ablett, Murphy, Chad Cornes (when he was still good) etc. Certainly not the case to say he's only effectively negated the low hanging fruit.
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I remember the Chad Cornes one around 07/08 which was when he was talked up as a tagger but that was a bloody long time ago. How long ago was it that we've seen him go to the likes of Ablett, Murphy etc week in week out and actually slow them down (does seem to be harder to shut the big named players out now then it was a few years ago for that matter, some players like Carrazzo still do a very good job though)? I don't think he ever has and very rarely has gone to the best player week in week out which must mean we don't really rate him that highly as a tagger. Which is a shame considering someone with his tank and tackling skills would make for a good tagger one would think.
 
dylan123 said:
I remember the Chad Cornes one around 07/08 which was when he was talked up as a tagger but that was a bloody long time ago. How long ago was it that we've seen him go to the likes of Ablett, Murphy etc week in week out and actually slow them down (does seem to be harder to shut the big named players out now then it was a few years ago for that matter, some players like Carrazzo still do a very good job though)? I don't think he ever has and very rarely has gone to the best player week in week out which must mean we don't really rate him that highly as a tagger. Which is a shame considering someone with his tank and tackling skills would make for a good tagger one would think.
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I'm actually not really sure what standard you think should apply.

For the record the Murphy example was last year. Absolutely towelled him.
 

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Southerntakeover said:
I'm actually not really sure what standard you think should apply.

For the record the Murphy example was last year. Absolutely towelled him.
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I don't exactly like to go off fanfooty as it's not 100% accurate but in the games between that according to fanfooty ((http://www.fanfooty.com.au/players/year.php?firstname=Nathan&surname=van Berlo&year=2012))


He vsed Murphy in round 8 who he kept to 5 disposals in 36% TOG before he met Dangerfield and didn't return.

The two games before that:
Round 6 - Followed Jack who he held to just 15 disposals (although Jack kicked 2) but did pretty well going from that.
Round 7 - Listed as going h2h against Kelly. Kelly had 27 disposals whilst Van Berlo had 19 and 2 goals.

The two games after that:
Round 9 - Listed as going h2h against Pendlebury. Pendles had 29 disposals and 1 goal whilst Van Berlo had 16 disposals.
Round 10 - Listed as tagging Hill who he kept to 20 disposals and 1 goal whilst having 24 disposals himself.

*Supposedly tagged Dal Santo the next game, Dal Santo had 34 disposals and 2 goals*


So in a period of 5 weeks he was listed as tagging in 3 games and going h2h against two quality players who weren't affected by him whatsoever. To me that doesn't say he's anything special as a tagger.

Again, I don't like to live/die by what fanfooty has players listed as but I don't believe there's anything better to go off unless you rewatch all the games.
 
Southerntakeover said:
Where on that link does it detail the 'opponent'.

Incidentally, who are the taggers in the league who win their position every week?
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See the thermometer looking sort of icon? Hover over that and it says who he was tagging. Hover over the other icons and it says what he did that day (h2h or stats in general) and click on the teams to see the full match stats to see the guy he was meant to be tagging (if he was listed as a tagger that day).

No one wins their tagging job week in week out but some are a lot better then others and I personally don't think Van Berlo is anything special as a tagger. Check out someone like Carrazzo last year, he only managed 14 games due to injury but he killed plenty of the players he went to last year (http://www.fanfooty.com.au/players/year.php?firstname=Nathan&surname=van Berlo&year=2012). Guys like Pendlebury and Beams both basically had their worst games against him last year.
 
earlsta said:
Look, the guys obviously down on form at the moment but I think he himself needs to make the call at the end of the year if he's going relinquish the captaincy, doubt he'll be pushed.

Watching Hodge's match tonight, he only had 15 touches but jeez he was almost BOG by some of the work he did, compare that to Van Berlo's 15 touch games and it's chalk and cheese.
You need your captain lifting the team like what Hodge does, it's such a vital ingredient to a successful club.

I'm sure VB is a great guy and absolutely brilliant with the players and more importantly youngsters giving advice and leading them through training, but most importantly out on the ground where he's needed the most he seems to go missing, we need him to be lifting our team and doing things that captains do, making the tough calls and not the easy option of passing in a straight line. VB's actually got a decent kick on him, just doesn't use it as often as he should.

Meanwhile we've got a player who I think will be our greatest player ever waiting in the wings, this guy will be the best in the competition very soon, he is a rare package plus the leadership which he was born with, he carries players on his shoulders. Then there's Sloane who also has tremendous leadership and the will to succeed, I don't think the captaincy will be a burden for either of these two players because it's natural for them to lead, it will have no effect on their game whatsoever because they are already playing like captains week in week out.

We need to make this decision at the end of the year, or Nathan will have to, I like VB as a player & person but something has to give, he's not performing at the moment and he needs to be dropped, but we cannot afford to drop our captain.

What are everyone's thoughts on this? I hope VB has a fantastic game tomorrow and proves me wrong.
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That paragraph there is exactly correct!!
I have never once questioned VB's role as captain, but surely the work off the field is worthless if you cant inspire on the field.
Hodge of friday night was brilliant, when the game was in the balance he took it upon himself to win a couple of contests and wrestle the momentuem back for his team. The captain should lead the way when the going gets tough.. There is currently only 1 Crows player who does this.....
Surely now/end of season is the time to instill Danger as captain. great with the media, inspires the team on the field.
Time to let VB focus on his own game!
 
I did some analysis a few years back on VB compared to his early days for the stuff he become a board cult figure for - the 1%'s, tackles hard stuff.

My conclusion was ever since his 09 injury to his back he just can't play that way anymore.

The concern is without being able to play that way - what sets him apart as a player. He works hard - that's nice. Working hard alone just doesn't cut it.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-adelaide-crows--nathan-van-berlo

Look at that decline in tackles... previous year at 5. Nothing lower than 3.3 a game since he become a gold-pass favourite under Neil.
This season - 1.9 a game. Drop off of more than 50%. From our CAPTAIN.

Wtf has happened? If he wasn't Captain he would be in dire straits of not being picked. I used to love the guy, and as a guy still do, but as a footy player he just can't/doesn't contribute like he used to - and like we need him to.

It's incredibly sad.

What do people hear around the club (who have contacts)? Is there still unwavering support for VB as captain? (PM me if you don't want to let people know you have contacts - I can summarise back here)
 
jenny61_99 said:
Look I am not arguing that he is playing well. I am arguing that he apparently (according to the COACH) is doing what is asked of him. I think it's unfair to can the guy if he is in fact doing what is asked of him. As NONE OF US are privy to what that is, I take my lead from the COACH.
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I'm pretty sure Sando isn't asking him to be a spud.
 
Surely it is time... Can a player give up the captaincy mid season? I know VB is a good speaker, good leader off the field, probably a good leader on the field too but there is more to being a captain. A good captain needs to lead by example, be able to turn a games momentum with a single act of brilliance, shake the shackles of a tag and still produce a 30 touch game, kick the clutch goals, and move himself into positions during the game without the coaches permission, which pay off.

VB is having his worst season statistically since 2007, when he was 20 years old and had 30 games to his belt at the seasons beginning. This was when everyone thought he was going to become this hard running, possession accumulating machine. We thought with his running ability, not many players would be able to reach as many contests and keep up with him. How many contests does he actually get to, because averaging 17 touches a game does not indicate he reaches a lot of contests. 4.2 marks a game does not indicate he gut-runs his opponents off their feet. 2.8 tackles per game does not indicate he can keep up with his man. More behinds than goals per game does not indicate he can kick the clutch goals and turn games.

As a midfielder, and a captain, you would think he would rank well in brownlow votes too. He has had 11 votes total since becoming captain in 2010.

Morgan Freeman can deliver one hell of an instirational speach, but I dont see him pulling on a guernsey and captaining a side.

Of all the 27 year old, 150+ game midfielders, he would rank one of the lowest in regards for perfromance. Many teams would have dropped him this season if he wasnt the captain. Wright, Lyons, Riley, Kerridge have all got season averages of similar quality as Captain VB.

But what about his tagging ability you say? Dont get Abletts 30+ 2 goal game mixed up with a gun players 20 touch tag effected game. If someone is effectively tagged, they do not hit 30 touches, or 25 touches, or kick goals from the midfield. Which player did VB tag last night? The only plausible answer to that question I can see is that VB effectively tagged himself out of the game...

I think that if Sanderson wants to make a statement about where this club is heading, the captaincy needs to be taken from VB, given to any of Danger, Sloane, or Thommo (in that order of preferance imo) and the VC given to any of Sloane, Thommo, or Tex.

End rant.
 

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Yeah he needs to go. Dropped. He was one of our worst last night. Pendles and Swan killed him, and he was supposed to be tagging one of them.
It's players like him, Otten, Jaensch, Reilly, Mackay, Wright that are the reason we aren't in the eight, not losing Walker, Tippett and whoever else we've lost. (Thompson gets an exception as he's trying, but injured)
 
1990crow said:
Yeah he needs to go. Dropped. He was one of our worst last night. Pendles and Swan killed him, and he was supposed to be tagging one of them.
It's players like him, Otten, Jaensch, Reilly, Mackay, Wright that are the reason we aren't in the eight, not losing Walker, Tippett and whoever else we've lost. (Thompson gets an exception as he's trying, but injured)
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Garbage.. he wasn't even remotely close to our worst last night.
 
1990crow said:
Pretty darn close, maybe you didn't watch the game. Only Otten, Mackay and Jaensch were worse for mine. And that's borderline. His opponent getting 40 touches being the main reason.
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Wright, Thompson, Jaensch, Jenkins, Talia.. Otten was nowhere near as bad as his haters (AKA the Sam Shaw fan club) would have you believe. Jacobs gave us nothing.

VB at the very least restricted the effectiveness of the players he was on - a comparison of their performances during the time he was on them, vs the time when he wasn't, is very telling. Both Swan & Pendles were 50% better without VB in their back pockets.
 
Even the club have let little words out about how poor Van Berlo has been.. You know a player has been total shit when even the club start saying some of the things that have been coming out..

If Van Berlo was doing such a good job on Pendlebury, he wouldn't have been moved off of him.. Both Swan and Pendlebury were on top, might as well move VB to Swan.. Because he wasn't stopping Pendlebury..
 
Vader said:
Wright, Thompson, Jaensch, Jenkins, Talia.. Otten was nowhere near as bad as his haters (AKA the Sam Shaw fan club) would have you believe. Jacobs gave us nothing.

VB at the very least restricted the effectiveness of the players he was on - a comparison of their performances during the time he was on them, vs the time when he wasn't, is very telling. Both Swan & Pendles were 50% better without VB in their back pockets.
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Why do you keep repeating the same rubbish? Pendlebury had 19 possessions in a half on VB, I will repeat 19 bloody possessions.

As for Otten, he had 4 possessions, he stunk, it's got nothing to do with Sam Shaw so why even bring that up?
 

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Vader said:
Wright, Thompson, Jaensch, Jenkins, Talia.. Otten was nowhere near as bad as his haters (AKA the Sam Shaw fan club) would have you believe. Jacobs gave us nothing.

VB at the very least restricted the effectiveness of the players he was on - a comparison of their performances during the time he was on them, vs the time when he wasn't, is very telling. Both Swan & Pendles were 50% better without VB in their back pockets.
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A player is specifically assigned the job to stop Player X.. You would think that surely this would result in some kind of reduction in Player X's game.. Every player if left un-tagged would reach their absolute peak level.. It's no reason to give big pats on the back to VB.. Reducing Player X's game in the same way that guys like Ling or Crowley did/do, would be deserving of pats on the back..

I agree with Otten, amazed at the treatment he receives.. Not one of his better games last night but people can't wait to hang him..
 
Otten was shit last night, but has had a decent year. But VB has had a shit year ALL year. Others who have not done their job have been dropped. VB is there to tag and doesnt do that well, hasnt all year. The club would cop shit for dropping their captain, but I think they need to do it. It would send a HUGE message to the players.
 
The captain sure doesn't have to be the best player. But has to led by example. And has to play every week the best he can and spark up the team if were down.
 
And personally I think a better captain would be Scott Thompson. But that's just my view.
 

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