Captain VB

[Sanders]

Should he play like he did over the first 15 odd rounds I'd say it would come under threat. Over the past month or so it seems like he's gotten a little better, still not his biggest fan personally but has done a few things that we were all asking for recently that had been missing from his game.

28 tackles in his previous 4 games. Only 1 against North.

If he's not working the tackle count I wonder how hard he is working as a tagger

 

[dylan123]

28 tackles in his previous 4 games. Only 1 against North.

If he's not working the tackle count I wonder how hard he is working as a tagger

19 tackles in his first 10 games compared to 35 tackles in his past 6 games, has defiantly improved defensively over the past month and a bit.

 

[cmndstab]

Champion Data is primarily a measure of a player's offensive output. No surprises that a tagger would be rated very low in such a system.

Where was Harvey on the list?

 

[Sanders]

Champion Data is primarily a measure of a player's offensive output. No surprises that a tagger would be rated very low in such a system.

Where was Harvey on the list?

Did you miss the bit about Crowley?

VB's "rating" was only 1/3rd of his average. Harvey's contribution was rated double that of VB

And lets not forget most teams don't bother to tag Harvey these days. it was Well's who was carving us up (Harvey never does) why wasn't he on the guy we needed to stop?

I suggest its because wells is too athletic, too explosive for him to keep up with.

 

[cmndstab]

Who to tag is always an interesting question. Do you tag the most dangerous player, or the player you can stop the most effectively? Or some combination of the two?

Harvey's last month had been electric. Teams had failed to tag him and paid the price.

As for Harvey's contribution being rated double, again, his offensive contribution was rated double that of VB's. I know, it's not ideal that our captain is reduced to simply trying to blunt the contribution of opposition players rather than being damaging himself, but in the role he played VB did very well. You can argue all you like about whether that role should be a different one.

 

[dylan123]

And lets not forget most teams don't bother to tag Harvey these days. it was Well's who was carving us up (Harvey never does) why wasn't he on the guy we needed to stop?

I suggest its because wells is too athletic, too explosive for him to keep up with.

Harvey has been tagged in at least half of his games this year so that's a load of crap, Crowley (who most would say is just about the best in the comp for tagging atm) also went to Harvey in their match up this year whilst they elected to send Clancee Pearce to Wells, think it's fair to say who they viewed as the bigger threat.

Also, have you considered that there may be a reason to Harvey "never" carving it up against us? Possibly because we give him a lot of attention every time we come up against North?

Could very well be right about Van Berlo also being better suited to tag Harvey over Wells due to Wells speed, however I'm not too sure on that either way.

 

[Sanders]

Harvey has been tagged in at least half of his games this year so that's a load of crap, Crowley (who most would say is just about the best in the comp for tagging atm) also went to Harvey in their match up this year whilst they elected to send Clancee Pearce to Wells, think it's fair to say who they viewed as the bigger threat.

Nah that's not right. Most teams don't even have specialist taggers these days. They rely on systems hence sando's good teams don't tag comment - they don't rely on one to one man marking. Freo & Adelaide are exceptions - and only us in the second half of the season when we had no other use for captain potato

Crowley destroyed him BTW

Also, have you considered that there may be a reason to Harvey "never" carving it up against us? Possibly because we give him a lot of attention every time we come up against North?

Ok lets explore that. Over an 18 year career we've always managed to find someone to keep him quiet (relatively) - doesn't that suggest VB is very replaceable? We have always found someone, so isn't he fairly interchangeable?

How much is that worth if there is no scarcity?

Could very well be right about Van Berlo also being better suited to tag Harvey over Wells due to Wells speed, however I'm not too sure on that either way.

Its only my theory

 

[Sanders]

Who to tag is always an interesting question. Do you tag the most dangerous player, or the player you can stop the most effectively? Or some combination of the two?

We moved him off pendles because he couldn't handle him. Pendles getting a full 10 coaches votes fwiw.

He should have been on fyfe (another 10 coaches votes) & wells (8) but can't match up them

If you only tag who your "tagger" can keep up with, not who you need to stop? Why bother at all

I know, it's not ideal that our captain is reduced to simply trying to blunt the contribution of opposition players rather than being damaging himself, but in the role he played VB did very well.

Very far from ideal.

Did you know all season long our inspirational captain has failed to poll a single vote in the coaches awards?

If the coaches don't recognise what a grand job he did on harvey (ablett, pendles etc), his leadership, his courage, all the intangibles he brings, his overall contribution to the team - maybe its not real?

If the coaches don't see all the unglamorous, little details that we joe schmoes aren't qualified to pick up on, what does that say?

Perhaps the emperors couture is a little on the skimpy side?

I just reckon if Sloane were captain say, all this goes away. People stop talking about the captaincy as such a big thing, and VB's role being out of step. It feels like VB is being hidden at 3rd man in school cricket just to find a spot for him to play

Like trigg, VB is a lightening rod for what is going wrong around them because they shouldn't be in the jobs they are in

 

[cmndstab]

Frankly, I hope the club is not making such a vital decision such as who to be captain based on fan disappointment. If he's the right guy for the job, keep him there, regardless of how pissy some supporters get about it. I'd be aghast if the club came out and said "Well we thought VB was the best choice for captain, but fans were really negative about his role as a tagger last year so we went for our second preference to appease them."

I don't think VB is incapable of tagging good players. He was asked to tag Harvey and did it well. I'm not sure why you insist on turning that into a slight on him.

Coaches votes are a measure of which players won the match. Taggers don't win matches - they save them. I wouldn't expect him to get coaches votes in that role. If you want a reasonable measure of how well he has performed in the role designated to him, wait for the B&F voting. I suspect he will poll modestly well, though nothing special.

Also, decrying a player's tagging ability because some players beat him is ridiculous. That's like damning a defender because some forwards kicked goals on them. Taggers can't succeed in stopping their opponents every week, and expecting them to is unreasonable. To my eyes, on average, VB has done a good, not great, but good job of playing his role as tagger this year.

 

[Sanders]

Frankly, I hope the club is not making such a vital decision such as who to be captain based on fan disappointment. If he's the right guy for the job, keep him there, regardless of how pissy some supporters get about it. I'd be aghast if the club came out and said "Well we thought VB was the best choice for captain, but fans were really negative about his role as a tagger last year so we went for our second preference to appease them."

You misunderstand me. Sloane is a rightful choice not a populist one

We insist on digging in with the wrong one

. Taggers don't win matches - they save them.

Are you sure about that?

Wayne Harms? leo barry

Its the same thing. You make a contribution to the result, you're suggesting defence isn't important

And i don't think you really mean that

 

[swanfan]

Well... They have a rating system, and in it they value all sorts of big & small acts. They assign a number, and it goes from big to small.

as for the tagging role, Ryan Crowley scored fairly well

Its not everything, but it is interesting

I think he did something unusual on Saturday night. He kicked a goal.

 

[cmndstab]

You misunderstand me. Sloane is a rightful choice not a populist one

We insist on digging in with the wrong one

...according to populist opinion.

Are you sure about that?

Wayne Harms? leo barry

Its the same thing. You make a contribution to the result, you're suggesting defence isn't important

And i don't think you really mean that

No, I'm saying that the coaches votes are not a perfect measure of performance. Coaches are far more likely to give the votes to the players who won the match. There are simply far more ways an offensive player can stand out for such an honour than a defensive player.

Obviously there are occasional exceptions, but the fact you can name the specific events from the last decade is evidence that it doesn't happen very often.

 

[Mattrox]

People Bagging VB for his performance on the weekend need to look up Harvey's output in all the games he's played this year. His two worst games were against Freo and Adelaide. His numbers against Adelaide are only marginally higher than the Freo game and significantly lower than the other games he has played.

Harvey's possession count is heavily weighted towards uncontested. VB held him to 11 uncontested posessions. Given the low number of cp's there is limited scope for VB to tackle. VB preventing the ball gettingbto Harvey resulted in him not tackling as much.


CD also don't publish attempted tackles to the public. A player laying tackles will have significantly less counted than we see during the game.

 

[Sanders]

...according to populist opinion.

what was that poll a little while back?

No, I'm saying that the coaches votes are not a perfect measure of performance. Coaches are far more likely to give the votes to the players who won the match.

And I say fiddlesticks. If the coaches themselves aren't the best measure who the heck is?

Isn't it their job to take account of everything?

Your description makes them sound like journalists.

There are simply far more ways an offensive player can stand out for such an honour than a defensive player.

And that's why we rely on real experts familiar with all the little nuances.

Fullbacks have never struggled for recognition now have they?

Obviously there are occasional exceptions, but the fact you can name the specific events from the last decade is evidence that it doesn't happen very often.

Why are 2 of the highest profile individual moments in grand final history suddenly an exception? They are just stone cold examples that saving a match counts just as much

Does Peter Caven's job on Carey in the 98 grand final go without recognition?

Do people forget the job Mick Martyn did on Robran, that Kane Johnson did on Robert Harvey?

No. its not that a negation role isn't recognised, particularly when done well.

However if Caven had stood and quietened Brett Allison whilst Carey dominated, maybe we would talk a little more about the choices, impacts & efficacy

However the real problem with van berlo is 2 fold:
We've got him tagging again because there is no other role for him, in a time when tagging is very much out of favour. As even our coach says

Mostly though, we backed VB to grow into the role as captain. We backed him in early, and it just didn't happen.

He didn't come on as hoped, develop into the captaincy, and that has made the captaincy an awkward sticking point.

A bit of an embarrassment for a club that doesn't like admitting it got things wrong

 

[Sanders]

People Bagging VB for his performance on the weekend need to look up Harvey's output in all the games he's played this year. His two worst games were against Freo and Adelaide. His numbers against Adelaide are only marginally higher than the Freo game and significantly lower than the other games he has played.

Of course. harvey's always been susceptible to a tag. Freo & Adelaide are tagging teams

 

[dylan123]

Nah that's not right. Most teams don't even have specialist taggers these days. They rely on systems hence sando's good teams don't tag comment - they don't rely on one to one man marking. Freo & Adelaide are exceptions - and only us in the second half of the season when we had no other use for captain potato

Since when?

Brisbane - Raines
Carlton - Half of their team tag.... Carazzo, Curnow and Cachia are a few off the top of my head
Collingwood -Macaffer has spent a lot of time tagging for them this season
Essendon - Hooker
Freo - Crowley
Geelong - Hunt (Ling before that)
Suns - Don't know, don't really watch them that much
Giants - Same as Suns, although I've seen Scully given the tagging role a couple of times this season
Hawks - Don't really tag
Melbourne - McKenzie (when he's in the side), not sure about anyone else (Grimes tagged a week or two before that)
North - Don't think they really tag
Port - Cornes
Richmond - Jackson? Not that he really tags hard/any good at it
St.Kilda - Jones
Sydney - Midfield are all capable of playing defensively so they don't really need a full time tagger. Bird does often get it against the stronger sides though
West Coast - Wouldn't say they have a full time tagger although S.Selwood tags a bit
Bulldogs - Lower was tagging until about a month ago when he got dropped

Again, to me that looks a lot more then half of the teams...

Ok lets explore that. Over an 18 year career we've always managed to find someone to keep him quiet (relatively) - doesn't that suggest VB is very replaceable? We have always found someone, so isn't he fairly interchangeable?

Define relatively, looking through his stats against us I can see where a few games where he's done relatively well but again, he has come across as a player in the past (at least imo) who is prone to struggling with a tag which further supports sending the tag to him. We do appear to be a side he struggles against more so then others though.

Again, I'm not a big VB fan, and I don't believe he's irreplaceable, I'm just stating that his past month or so has improved from him being completely useless on the field to doing something that's now helping us win. Having someone that can tag like Crowely, Carrazzo etc would be great since they really take guys out of the game. Shirley was our last really strong tagger imo and we've missed him a bit as players have racked up massive stats against us this year (we had Hannebery, Prestia and Pendlebury (?) who all had like 39+ touches against us in the space of 4 weeks).



How much is that worth if there is no scarcity?





Its only my theory[/quote]