Society/Culture Car driven by Afghan refugee mows down pedestrians in Melbourne CBD

[BustedWing]

no I don't have the statistics, the police force would but they are usually too scared to release them in case some minority is offended I do know pretty much every terrorist act committed or attempted in Australia was done by a middle eastern immigrant or their offspring

I was hoping you would be able to, given you're advocating that we limit immigration based purely on peoples places of origin and religion, be able to show these people are committing crimes disproportionately to an expected level.

Something like (and these stats are made up, but you get my point):

*1 in a thousand people (on average) commit a violent crime.
* we let in 10,000 {insert demographic here} into Australia each year.
Therefore it would be expected that 10 of those people may well commit a crime.

BUT - what we actually see is

* 100 of these people commit violent crimes, which is WAY above what we would expect to see.

Therefore, we need to put stricter measures on those people.

If you have some statistics along those lines, that would would be very useful, and strengthen your position immeasurably.

Currently all i have seen in a knee jerk reaction to people who look different to you, and a vague claim that police hide the truth from us...

 

[Power Raid]

I was hoping you would be able to, given you're advocating that we limit immigration based purely on peoples places of origin and religion, be able to show these people are committing crimes disproportionately to an expected level.

Something like (and these stats are made up, but you get my point):

*1 in a thousand people (on average) commit a violent crime.
* we let in 10,000 {insert demographic here} into Australia each year.
Therefore it would be expected that 10 of those people may well commit a crime.

BUT - what we actually see is

* 100 of these people commit violent crimes, which is WAY above what we would expect to see.

Therefore, we need to put stricter measures on those people.

If you have some statistics along those lines, that would would be very useful, and strengthen your position immeasurably.

Currently all i have seen in a knee jerk reaction to people who look different to you, and a vague claim that police hide the truth from us...

It is really difficult to find statistics online. In the case of Sweden, a hot spot for debate, the article linked explains data on immigration crime was only taken in 1997 and 2001. Even where data is collected, I wonder how much is released to the public.

but the article does say

"To isolate the effect of immigration on crime, we need data on crimes committed by immigrants. Obtaining this type of data is easy in the United States or Denmark, but not in Sweden. The last time there was an official report breaking down crime statistics by immigrant status and origin was in 2005, for the years 1997 to 2001. These statistics confirmed that immigrants were significantly overrepresented amongst offenders, in particular in committing violent crimes. The foreign born were four times more likely to be suspects in homicide cases than those with Swedish origin, and 4.5 times more likely to be suspects in rape cases."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445237/sweden-crime-rates-immigration-what-are-facts

 

[Number37]

It is really difficult to find statistics online. In the case of Sweden, a hot spot for debate, the article linked explains data on immigration crime was only taken in 1997 and 2001. Even where data is collected, I wonder how much is released to the public.

but the article does say

"To isolate the effect of immigration on crime, we need data on crimes committed by immigrants. Obtaining this type of data is easy in the United States or Denmark, but not in Sweden. The last time there was an official report breaking down crime statistics by immigrant status and origin was in 2005, for the years 1997 to 2001. These statistics confirmed that immigrants were significantly overrepresented amongst offenders, in particular in committing violent crimes. The foreign born were four times more likely to be suspects in homicide cases than those with Swedish origin, and 4.5 times more likely to be suspects in rape cases."

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445237/sweden-crime-rates-immigration-what-are-facts

That is only one part of the story.

If you look at crime stats ANYWHERE in the world offenders from low socio-economic backgrounds are over represented in every category besides white collar crime.

You should be asking: are immigrants more likely to commit crime because they're immigrants or because they are trapped in a vicious circle of poverty?

 

[Jello_B]

Do you have a statistic of the number of violent/criminal acts committed by immigrants vs the expected number in the general population?

Why would this matter? Why would we import any crime?

 

[Chubberson]

That is only one part of the story.

If you look at crime stats ANYWHERE in the world offenders from low socio-economic backgrounds are over represented in every category besides white collar crime.

You should be asking: are immigrants more likely to commit crime because they're immigrants or because they are trapped in a vicious circle of poverty?

The stats are right there in front of you homie. 'They' do it more. Mofra, time for some token support mate, when your done writing hours and hours and hours and hours on how s**t footballers are

 

[Number37]

The stats are right there in front of you homie. 'They' do it more. Mofra, time for some token support mate, when your done writing hours and hours and hours and hours on how s**t footballers are

Do they do it more because 'they' are 'they' or because crime and low socioeconomic status go hand in hand?

 

[Chubberson]

Do they do it more because 'they' are 'they' or because crime and low socioeconomic status go hand in hand?

just choose, what ever fits your narrative the closest. I'm not your Dad.

 

[Number37]

just choose, what ever fits your narrative the closest. I'm not your Dad.

So, if you were my dad you would choose for me?

What would you choose daddy?
Wait, lemme guess...
Immigrants commit crime because they are immigrants because that is what immigrants do.

 

[Chubberson]

So, if you were my dad you would choose for me?

What would you choose daddy?
Wait, lemme guess...
Immigrants commit crime because they are immigrants because that is what immigrants do.

If I were your Dad I'd slap you silly and give you a girls name like, um, Mary.

 

[Power Raid]

That is only one part of the story.

If you look at crime stats ANYWHERE in the world offenders from low socio-economic backgrounds are over represented in every category besides white collar crime.

You should be asking: are immigrants more likely to commit crime because they're immigrants or because they are trapped in a vicious circle of poverty?

I think there is two factors at play here which are same same but different.

No doubt poverty and low socio-economic backgrounds has an over representation for crime. This is nothing new and will not change, in my opinion, until we have a better integration of health, mental health, social welfare, "participate" for welfare (to give people a purpose) and the judicial system.

In regards to immigration, I dare say most who make the decision to come are happy working like dogs, doing 100 hour weeks to give their next generation a brighter future. Where I would suggest the issue is, is those who come here too late to assimilate (6 years old - 25 years old) but don't own the decision to come here and thus not interested working themselves to death.

Once enough of the immigrants commit crimes, the society and community turns on them and denies them opportunities such as employment. This only escalates the issue as they have no money, no hope and loads of time. You then get to a point, like we see in France and many parts of Europe where some immigrants don't even bother trying at school as they know from their community the fate that awaits.


If we (Australia) are to succeed, we need to not let facts, figures and other negative realities blind us. We have to continue to persevere to ensure immigrants have ever chance of success (as we also need to do with low socio-economic groups).

 

[Number37]

I think there is two factors at play here which are same same but different.

No doubt poverty and low socio-economic backgrounds has an over representation for crime. This is nothing new and will not change, in my opinion, until we have a better integration of health, mental health, social welfare, "participate" for welfare (to give people a purpose) and the judicial system.

In regards to immigration, I dare say most who make the decision to come are happy working like dogs, doing 100 hour weeks to give their next generation a brighter future. Where I would suggest the issue is, is those who come here too late to assimilate (6 years old - 25 years old) but don't own the decision to come here and thus not interested working themselves to death.

Once enough of the immigrants commit crimes, the society and community turns on them and denies them opportunities such as employment. This only escalates the issue as they have no money, no hope and loads of time. You then get to a point, like we see in France and many parts of Europe where some immigrants don't even bother trying at school as they know from their community the fate that awaits.


If we (Australia) are to succeed, we need to not let facts, figures and other negative realities blind us. We have to continue to persevere to ensure immigrants have ever chance of success (as we also need to do with low socio-economic groups).

We need to temper our expectations on immigrants.
We expect them to be perfect just because we have given them an opportunity to migrate to our country.
No doubt that is a privilege that they should all embrace, however, to expect ALL of them to become model citizens is completely ridiculous.
How many model citizens are there?
People are far from perfect.

I would suggest that much like "they steal our jobs" cries of "immigrants are criminals" is just a convenient excuse to let out the inner xenophobe.

 

[BustedWing]

Why would this matter? Why would we import any crime?

It matters because you cant see into the future. You dont know a particular person will commit a crime, so you play the averages. If you don't, and you subscribe to the theory of persecuting an entire population for the crimes of a subsection of that population, then you....well....do I need to explain that to you?

Men aged 18-25 are disproportionately represented in vehicle deaths. Should we just ban all males from driving until they hit the age of 26?

 

[fleabitten]

We need to temper our expectations on immigrants.
We expect them to be perfect just because we have given them an opportunity to migrate to our country.
No doubt that is a privilege that they should all embrace, however, to expect ALL of them to become model citizens is completely ridiculous.
How many model citizens are there?
People are far from perfect.

I would suggest that much like "they steal our jobs" cries of "immigrants are criminals" is just a convenient excuse to let out the inner xenophobe.

Refraining from violent attacks on the host culture doesn't require a model citizen. It's fair to question whether those who commit such attacks should ever have been allowed in here, and then to go a step further and question whether others who hold a similar world view should be welcomed.

 

[ShanDog]

Refraining from violent attacks on the host culture doesn't require a model citizen. It's fair to question whether those who commit such attacks should ever have been allowed in here, and then to go a step further and question whether others who hold a similar world view should be welcomed.

Extend that logic out and anyone who commits a violent crime should therefore be banished.

 

[fleabitten]

Extend that logic out and anyone who commits a violent crime should therefore be banished.

From our society? Yeah sure, why not? But you're talking about punishment after the fact, while I was talking about prevention.

 

[ShanDog]

From our society? Yeah sure, why not? But you're talking about punishment after the fact, while I was talking about prevention.

Nice idea, but completely impossible to achieve with 100% accuracy. We haven't reached minority report tech levels yet. And until then, what's the alternative? Preemptively "convicting" those who we believe will be a problem? We already do to a degree - those with certain criminal convictions are often unable to travel to Australia, even minor things like drug possession or DUIs. How far do you think this can be taken? Who makes the decision about where the point of no return (well... entry) is for those who haven't been convicted of anything but are "shady" in some way? How does this reconcile with our ideals regarding the presumption of innocence? Is it ok to steamroll an individual for a perceived "greater good"? I know Machiavelli thought so, but it's a dangerous idea.

 

[Number37]

Refraining from violent attacks on the host culture doesn't require a model citizen. It's fair to question whether those who commit such attacks should ever have been allowed in here, and then to go a step further and question whether others who hold a similar world view should be welcomed.

Those who commit violent attacks should not be allowed in.

If only there was a way you could tell who would commit violent acts before they actually commit violent acts.

But that is not what you are asking for.

What you are asking for is a blanket ban on anyone that resembles somebody that might commit violent acts.

That is a dangerous and stupid ideology.

 

[fleabitten]

Those who commit violent attacks should not be allowed in.

If only there was a way you could tell who would commit violent acts before they actually commit violent acts.

But that is not what you are asking for.

What you are asking for is a blanket ban on anyone that resembles somebody that might commit violent acts.

That is a dangerous and stupid ideology.

I think it's more dangerous and stupid to ignore that there are some groups who hold beliefs that are not compatible with where most of us want this country to go in future. We've got women's rights and now marriage equality and we're becoming increasingly secular and less beholden to the ideas of people who lived thousands of years ago. We should be cautious about who we're bringing in if we hope to continue evolving in a positive direction.

 

[Number37]

I think it's more dangerous and stupid to ignore that there are some groups who hold beliefs that are not compatible with where most of us want this country to go in future. We've got women's rights and now marriage equality and we're becoming increasingly secular and less beholden to the ideas of people who lived thousands of years ago. We should be cautious about who we're bringing in if we hope to continue evolving in a positive direction.

Imagine if the indigenous folk had a tough stance on borders back in 1788.
Here is a shipload of convicted criminals we would like to leave on your shores. Ta.

 

[fleabitten]

Imagine if the indigenous folk had a tough stance on borders back in 1788.
Here is a shipload of convicted criminals we would like to leave on your shores. Ta.

Imagine.

 

[JeffDunne]

I think it's more dangerous and stupid to ignore that there are some groups who hold beliefs that are not compatible with where most of us want this country to go in future. We've got women's rights and now marriage equality and we're becoming increasingly secular and less beholden to the ideas of people who lived thousands of years ago. We should be cautious about who we're bringing in if we hope to continue evolving in a positive direction.

So we should only accept atheists?

 

[fleabitten]

So we should only accept atheists?

They should be front of the queue (assuming they pass all the other checks). Those with conservative religious views or cultural practices that aren't in line with our secular democracy should be at the back. Not saying they don't deserve help, but maybe we should help them go somewhere they'll fit in.

 

[Total Power]

They should be front of the queue (assuming they pass all the other checks). Those with conservative religious views or cultural practices that aren't in line with our secular democracy should be at the back. Not saying they don't deserve help, but maybe we should help them go somewhere they'll fit in.

the problem with Islamic Nations is they can't separate religion from the state, to them Quran is the book that has ALL SOLUTIONS for mankind, from sex to food. This poses a problem as it is totalitarian by nature. As i have said that morality is evolving, i don;t believe in objective morality anyway. But when you think religion offers you the solution to all problems, then that is a bigger problem in itself. I don't mind what they do in their house, people should not impose religion on others.

 

[Frank Bunn]

But it hasn't substantially. It was the change in interpretation of rape/sexual assault on Sweden that increased the statistics.

What evidence are you relying on for this? There was a change to Swedish categorisation of rape/sexual assault. But that does not mean there has not also been an increase due to sexual assaults by the immigrant population.

 

[Bradesmaen]

What evidence are you relying on for this? There was a change to Swedish categorisation of rape/sexual assault. But that does not mean there has not also been an increase due to sexual assaults by the immigrant population.

How can you extrapolate when they changed it at roughly the same time. You're basing statistics off of guessing.