Carey the stats accumulator

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ferball

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I think that's why it was disappointing - for Carey standards, we expected him to obliterate Dunkley and kick 5+ goals to be the indisputable Norm Smith medallist. However, I think this game also highlights how special he is, and to an extent this thread tries to highlight that Carey was such a multi-faceted player, that he will impact the game in other ways that other players simply couldn't, at least not consistently.

Carey racked up 22 "quiet" disposals, had 9 marks, and kicked a goal. When you watch the game though, check out how many goals involve him spilling the ball from a marking contest to advantage, pulling opposition players away from his teammates, creating "chaos" ball situations that the forwards like Allison and Freeborn preyed on, etc. Again, if goal assists were recorded back then, he would have had a few. I could be wrong, but I think he was top 3 in Norm Smith voting.

In basketball, there's a concept called a players "gravity" that pulls opposition players in or out that directly benefit the player's teammates. There's also the concept of "hockey assists" that aren't the last possession leading up to the goal scoring shot, but the second or third last play that leads up to the assist. Carey would be the king of both concepts.
Yeah especially in that game that idea of "player's gravity" really applied.
 
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Hojuman

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I think that's why it was disappointing - for Carey standards, we expected him to obliterate Dunkley and kick 5+ goals to be the indisputable Norm Smith medallist. However, I think this game also highlights how special he is, and to an extent this thread tries to highlight that Carey was such a multi-faceted player, that he will impact the game in other ways that other players simply couldn't, at least not consistently.

Carey racked up 22 "quiet" disposals, had 9 marks, and kicked a goal. When you watch the game though, check out how many goals involve him spilling the ball from a marking contest to advantage, pulling opposition players away from his teammates, creating "chaos" ball situations that the forwards like Allison and Freeborn preyed on, etc. Again, if goal assists were recorded back then, he would have had a few. I could be wrong, but I think he was top 3 in Norm Smith voting.

In basketball, there's a concept called a players "gravity" that pulls opposition players in or out that directly benefit the player's teammates. There's also the concept of "hockey assists" that aren't the last possession leading up to the goal scoring shot, but the second or third last play that leads up to the assist. Carey would be the king of both concepts.

Had 11 goal kickers in that g.f. Thanks Wayne.
 

7577969923

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 20, 2018
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I think that's why it was disappointing - for Carey standards, we expected him to obliterate Dunkley and kick 5+ goals to be the indisputable Norm Smith medallist. However, I think this game also highlights how special he is, and to an extent this thread tries to highlight that Carey was such a multi-faceted player, that he will impact the game in other ways that other players simply couldn't, at least not consistently.

Carey racked up 22 "quiet" disposals, had 9 marks, and kicked a goal. When you watch the game though, check out how many goals involve him spilling the ball from a marking contest to advantage, pulling opposition players away from his teammates, creating "chaos" ball situations that the forwards like Allison and Freeborn preyed on, etc. Again, if goal assists were recorded back then, he would have had a few. I could be wrong, but I think he was top 3 in Norm Smith voting.

In basketball, there's a concept called a players "gravity" that pulls opposition players in or out that directly benefit the player's teammates. There's also the concept of "hockey assists" that aren't the last possession leading up to the goal scoring shot, but the second or third last play that leads up to the assist. Carey would be the king of both concepts.

I think if goal assists had have been recorded over his career he would be so far clear in front of the second-best that it would be reminiscent of the Don's batting average.
 

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TennisPlayerAndy

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93 was the year when we really went bang and it was clear that North were a serious, looming threat. Longmire was still bagging goals, McAdam burst onto the scene and Carey was fulfilling his potential. The stretch of games from round 3 to round 10 was the most exciting and exhilarating run of games I have ever been witness to as a North supporter. And Carey was just a colossus.

Round 3 vs Geelong at Kardinia Park
NM 108 vs Gee 84
Carey: 11 kicks, 8 handballs, 10 marks and 2 goals

Round 4 vs Melbourne
NM 128 vs Mel 99
Carey: 14 kicks, 5 handballs, 9 marks, 7 goals 2 behinds

Round 5 vs Richmond
NM 159 vs Rich 122
Carey: 11 kicks, 7 handballs, 11 marks, 4 goals 4 behinds

Round 6 vs Sydney
NM 229 vs Syd 105
Carey: 12 kicks, 14 handballs, 8 marks, 3 goals 2 behinds

Round 7 vs Footscray
NM 141 vs Foots 110
Carey: 14 kicks, 6 handballs, 13 marks, 4 goals 1 behind (Stats don't do this game justice. He was utterly imperious)

Rounds 8 vs Adelaide @ AO
NM 121 vs Adel 123
Carey: 12 kicks, 5 handballs, 10 marks, 5 goals 3 behinds

Round 9 vs Carlton
NM 134 vs Car 96
Carey: 14 kicks, 6 handballs, 6 marks, 5 goals 3 behinds

Round 10 vs Collingwood (my favourite non GF game ever)
NM 126 vs Coll 43
Carey: 15 kicks, 8 handballs, 9 marks, 3 goals 4 behinds

Carey averaged 12.9 kicks, 7.5 handballs, 9.5 marks, 4.1 goals per game over this period. 20.4 disposals, almost 10 marks and 4 goals a game. Get the fu** out of here.
I know this is a year later but, he held the opposition in absolute contempt.


14 Kicks, 13 Marks, 7 Handballs.

Kicked 6.2.
 

ferball

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I think if goal assists had have been recorded over his career he would be so far clear in front of the second-best that it would be reminiscent of the Don's batting average.
Do you remember when he played that charity match a few years ago? I remember watching it and thinking "he used to do that all the time, that's right" as he constantly set up ... maybe Erin Phillips. It was like a timewarp watching him run a tighter circle than anyone and hit her up unmarked in front of the goal. It is almost never on highlight pacjages but is one of my most ... common I spose ... memories of him.
 

7577969923

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 20, 2018
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I was curious bout the perception that Carey was consistently overlooked by the umpires when it came to Brownlow voting so I geeked out and did a little bit of analysis.

I filtered all of the games Carey played based on the following parameters:

Disposals - 16+
Goals - 3+
Home & Away games only
Brownlow votes - 0

16 or more possessions and 3 or more goals meet anyone's definition of a high-quality match by a centre-half forward. There were 48 games where Carey met these criteria. Over those matches, he averaged 19.6 disposals and 3.6 goals.

Within that subset of data there were 21 games, effectively a whole season of games, where Carey kicked 4 plus goals per game. The averages on those games were 19.9 disposals and 4.3 goals. We have discussed in another thread how 20 plus 2 is an elite season. Carey effectively produced a season of 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes.

Carey polled Brownlow votes in 30 games. In those games, he averaged 20.8 possessions and 4.7 goals. He received an average of 2.16 votes for each of those games. So the difference between his polling games and his non-polling games was less than 1 possession and 0.4 of a goal.

I think there is pretty compelling evidence that Duck was denied at least 50 Brownlow votes he should have received over his career.
 

The Dougster

Team Captain
Dec 12, 2020
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I was curious bout the perception that Carey was consistently overlooked by the umpires when it came to Brownlow voting so I geeked out and did a little bit of analysis.

I filtered all of the games Carey played based on the following parameters:

Disposals - 16+
Goals - 3+
Home & Away games only
Brownlow votes - 0

16 or more possessions and 3 or more goals meet anyone's definition of a high-quality match by a centre-half forward. There were 48 games where Carey met these criteria. Over those matches, he averaged 19.6 disposals and 3.6 goals.

Within that subset of data there were 21 games, effectively a whole season of games, where Carey kicked 4 plus goals per game. The averages on those games were 19.9 disposals and 4.3 goals. We have discussed in another thread how 20 plus 2 is an elite season. Carey effectively produced a season of 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes.

Carey polled Brownlow votes in 30 games. In those games, he averaged 20.8 possessions and 4.7 goals. He received an average of 2.16 votes for each of those games. So the difference between his polling games and his non-polling games was less than 1 possession and 0.4 of a goal.

I think there is pretty compelling evidence that Duck was denied at least 50 Brownlow votes he should have received over his career.
Umpire Russo springs to mind and Duck saying "Wasn't he the umpire that didn't give Diesel a vote after 44 possessions"
 

shinboner magic

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I was curious bout the perception that Carey was consistently overlooked by the umpires when it came to Brownlow voting so I geeked out and did a little bit of analysis.

I filtered all of the games Carey played based on the following parameters:

Disposals - 16+
Goals - 3+
Home & Away games only
Brownlow votes - 0

16 or more possessions and 3 or more goals meet anyone's definition of a high-quality match by a centre-half forward. There were 48 games where Carey met these criteria. Over those matches, he averaged 19.6 disposals and 3.6 goals.

Within that subset of data there were 21 games, effectively a whole season of games, where Carey kicked 4 plus goals per game. The averages on those games were 19.9 disposals and 4.3 goals. We have discussed in another thread how 20 plus 2 is an elite season. Carey effectively produced a season of 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes.

Carey polled Brownlow votes in 30 games. In those games, he averaged 20.8 possessions and 4.7 goals. He received an average of 2.16 votes for each of those games. So the difference between his polling games and his non-polling games was less than 1 possession and 0.4 of a goal.

I think there is pretty compelling evidence that Duck was denied at least 50 Brownlow votes he should have received over his career.
Well the Duck was quite mouthy and his body language towards the maggots was obvious.
 

7577969923

Norm Smith Medallist
Sep 20, 2018
5,831
15,132
AFL Club
North Melbourne
I was curious bout the perception that Carey was consistently overlooked by the umpires when it came to Brownlow voting so I geeked out and did a little bit of analysis.

I filtered all of the games Carey played based on the following parameters:

Disposals - 16+
Goals - 3+
Home & Away games only
Brownlow votes - 0

16 or more possessions and 3 or more goals meet anyone's definition of a high-quality match by a centre-half forward. There were 48 games where Carey met these criteria. Over those matches, he averaged 19.6 disposals and 3.6 goals.

Within that subset of data there were 21 games, effectively a whole season of games, where Carey kicked 4 plus goals per game. The averages on those games were 19.9 disposals and 4.3 goals. We have discussed in another thread how 20 plus 2 is an elite season. Carey effectively produced a season of 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes.

Carey polled Brownlow votes in 30 games. In those games, he averaged 20.8 possessions and 4.7 goals. He received an average of 2.16 votes for each of those games. So the difference between his polling games and his non-polling games was less than 1 possession and 0.4 of a goal.

I think there is pretty compelling evidence that Duck was denied at least 50 Brownlow votes he should have received over his career.
His finals record across 23 matches was 17.4 possessions and 3 goals. Goalless in 3 of those finals. And the maggots didn't give him any Brownlow votes in those games either. Stern look.
 

Swallow_Wood

Club Legend
Jun 11, 2015
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I was curious bout the perception that Carey was consistently overlooked by the umpires when it came to Brownlow voting so I geeked out and did a little bit of analysis.

I filtered all of the games Carey played based on the following parameters:

Disposals - 16+
Goals - 3+
Home & Away games only
Brownlow votes - 0

16 or more possessions and 3 or more goals meet anyone's definition of a high-quality match by a centre-half forward. There were 48 games where Carey met these criteria. Over those matches, he averaged 19.6 disposals and 3.6 goals.

Within that subset of data there were 21 games, effectively a whole season of games, where Carey kicked 4 plus goals per game. The averages on those games were 19.9 disposals and 4.3 goals. We have discussed in another thread how 20 plus 2 is an elite season. Carey effectively produced a season of 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes.

Carey polled Brownlow votes in 30 games. In those games, he averaged 20.8 possessions and 4.7 goals. He received an average of 2.16 votes for each of those games. So the difference between his polling games and his non-polling games was less than 1 possession and 0.4 of a goal.

I think there is pretty compelling evidence that Duck was denied at least 50 Brownlow votes he should have received over his career.
Quality work mate and what a crazy lack of respect by the umpiring fraternity.
 

3051

Debutant
Sep 20, 2015
149
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AFL Club
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I was curious bout the perception that Carey was consistently overlooked by the umpires when it came to Brownlow voting so I geeked out and did a little bit of analysis.

I filtered all of the games Carey played based on the following parameters:

Disposals - 16+
Goals - 3+
Home & Away games only
Brownlow votes - 0

16 or more possessions and 3 or more goals meet anyone's definition of a high-quality match by a centre-half forward. There were 48 games where Carey met these criteria. Over those matches, he averaged 19.6 disposals and 3.6 goals.

Within that subset of data there were 21 games, effectively a whole season of games, where Carey kicked 4 plus goals per game. The averages on those games were 19.9 disposals and 4.3 goals. We have discussed in another thread how 20 plus 2 is an elite season. Carey effectively produced a season of 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes.

Carey polled Brownlow votes in 30 games. In those games, he averaged 20.8 possessions and 4.7 goals. He received an average of 2.16 votes for each of those games. So the difference between his polling games and his non-polling games was less than 1 possession and 0.4 of a goal.

I think there is pretty compelling evidence that Duck was denied at least 50 Brownlow votes he should have received over his career.
This is incredible analysis, and pretty damning stuff on the umpires. 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes. That's disgraceful. Plus McKernan in 96, North were robbed a couple of Brownlows in the 90s. At least we took home a couple of flags as a FU to the AFL.
 

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The Dougster

Team Captain
Dec 12, 2020
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This is incredible analysis, and pretty damning stuff on the umpires. 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes. That's disgraceful. Plus McKernan in 96, North were robbed a couple of Brownlows in the 90s. At least we took home a couple of flags as a FU to the AFL.
I doubt we ever topped the list of team votes for the Brownlow in the 90's. Even in 96,98 & 99 but like you said. Happy with our flags
 

Only Forwards

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2008
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I was curious bout the perception that Carey was consistently overlooked by the umpires when it came to Brownlow voting so I geeked out and did a little bit of analysis.

I filtered all of the games Carey played based on the following parameters:

Disposals - 16+
Goals - 3+
Home & Away games only
Brownlow votes - 0

16 or more possessions and 3 or more goals meet anyone's definition of a high-quality match by a centre-half forward. There were 48 games where Carey met these criteria. Over those matches, he averaged 19.6 disposals and 3.6 goals.

Within that subset of data there were 21 games, effectively a whole season of games, where Carey kicked 4 plus goals per game. The averages on those games were 19.9 disposals and 4.3 goals. We have discussed in another thread how 20 plus 2 is an elite season. Carey effectively produced a season of 20 plus 4 for zero Brownlow votes.

Carey polled Brownlow votes in 30 games. In those games, he averaged 20.8 possessions and 4.7 goals. He received an average of 2.16 votes for each of those games. So the difference between his polling games and his non-polling games was less than 1 possession and 0.4 of a goal.

I think there is pretty compelling evidence that Duck was denied at least 50 Brownlow votes he should have received over his career.
Those stats are ridiculous.

And it solidifies for me that the Brownlow is a joke.

Leigh Matthews trophy is better, still flawed, but better.
 

WayneShimmiesTheBush

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Its always an interesting footy conversation when it comes to who people believe is the greatest player to have played the game. One thing that is pretty consistent in the conversation, is it is generally between three guys, Carey, Matthews and Ablett Sr, all absolutely great players. Hawthorn fans will always say Matthews, Geelong fans will say Ablett Sr and North fans will say Carey.

In my eyes Carey is the greatest and is the most complete player to have played the game, he could do everything. But for me the one thing that I believe makes Carey the greatest when comparing the three players is, I know that Carey could do everything that Sr and Matthews could do, however, I also know that Sr and Matthews couldn't do everything that Carey could do. I might be a little biased but this to me is the reason I have him as the greatest of all time. He was a freak on the field and it was one hell of a pleasure watching him tearing up the opposition.
 

Hojuman

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Its always an interesting footy conversation when it comes to who people believe is the greatest player to have played the game. One thing that is pretty consistent in the conversation, is it is generally between three guys, Carey, Matthews and Ablett Sr, all absolutely great players. Hawthorn fans will always say Matthews, Geelong fans will say Ablett Sr and North fans will say Carey.

In my eyes Carey is the greatest and is the most complete player to have played the game, he could do everything. But for me the one thing that I believe makes Carey the greatest when comparing the three players is, I know that Carey could do everything that Sr and Matthews could do, however, I also know that Sr and Matthews couldn't do everything that Carey could do. I might be a little biased but this to me is the reason I have him as the greatest of all time. He was a freak on the field and it was one hell of a pleasure watching him tearing up the opposition.

Best thing is a few boomers here saw them all play.
1. Carey
2. Ablett
3. Matthews.

Mind you if Ablett had have jagged 2 or 3 flags, kicked bags doing it, l'd probably chuck him at 1. Know alot of people hate flags as a measure, but, it is the ultimate prize.
 

gokangas

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Best thing is a few boomers here saw them all play.
1. Carey
2. Ablett
3. Matthews.

Mind you if Ablett had have jagged 2 or 3 flags, kicked bags doing it, l'd probably chuck him at 1. Know alot of people hate flags as a measure, but, it is the ultimate prize.
Don't rate Ablett as high as many. My best three are Carey, Matthews, ummmmmmmmmmmm - get back to you on three.
 

3051

Debutant
Sep 20, 2015
149
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Best thing is a few boomers here saw them all play.
1. Carey
2. Ablett
3. Matthews.

Mind you if Ablett had have jagged 2 or 3 flags, kicked bags doing it, l'd probably chuck him at 1. Know alot of people hate flags as a measure, but, it is the ultimate prize.
What a privilege it is to be a fan of one of the clubs these 3 legends played for.

I find Ablett to be comfortably included in a 'top 3 of all-time' discussion, but find it very unnatural for him to be number one. Yes, footy is a team sport and so using premierships isn't the best measure, but when we're nitpicking players as the GOAT, then unfortunately a 0-4 record in grand finals absolutely goes against Ablett, compared to Matthews and Carey. I do think that Ablett was a pinch unlucky to have to go up against the 80s dynasty Hawks, 90s Eagles, and a GOAT-candidate team in the '95 Blues, whom had crushed Carey's North a week earlier. But 0-4 is hard to stomach in terms of legacy.

The other aspect of winning is that I think winning should be weighted heavier for captains, and again, Ablett falls short compared to Matthews and Carey. Being the captain assumes a highly accountable, team-oriented player that excels in communication and motivating his troops. Being team oriented is probably Ablett's biggest criticism when discussing him as a GOAT - I'm not going there, except that he is being compared to premiership captains.

I've only seen highlights of Matthews, and so don't have a lot to go by except his reputation and stats. Matthews is tiers below Ablett and Carey in the freak/highlight-reel factor. His stats are mind-blowing with a peak in '77 that was and is still unprecedented. Part of four premierships, captained the '83 side. 8 best and fairests in a golden era for the Hawks is also pretty crazy. Pretty hard to fault Matthews at all, aside from his "dirtyness" that understandably could tarnish his GOAT credentials, though assume that it was a different era back then.

Carey doesn't beat Matthews in stats or winning though context (and probably North-bias) is very important when distinguishing the two. Whilst Carey is an anomaly in terms of disposals as a CHF, Matthews was a huge anomaly in terms of goals as a rover. Didn't watch Matthews play so have no idea about his playmaking ability - goal assists, etc. that weren't recorded. Again, we keep saying that Carey would have led this stat by miles against his contemporaries in the 90s, but how would he compare against Matthews?

Winning is interesting as obviously Matthews played in a golden era for the Hawks through the 70s and 80s, yielding four premierships from seven grand finals across 17 seasons. Carey won two premierships from three grand finals in 13 seasons. However, Matthews entered the league with a pretty strong Hawthorn captained by Parkin, spearheaded by Hudson, and coached by Kennedy. By his third season, the Hawks went 19-3 and won the premiership. Carey, in contrast, didn't play in a final until his fifth season in '93. He joined North in very different circumstances. He became the second youngest captain in history and was the main catalyst of a new dynasty. He was a two-time premiership winning captain to Matthews one-time.

The last point I want to discuss is their play styles. I mentioned that Matthews was not near Carey's flashiness. Aesthetics IMO matter here - this is probably the main reason Ablett is talked about as a GOAT compared to Dunstall, Lockett, etc. Carey comes close to Ablett in this regard. But Carey's play has versatility and function across the ground that the other two didn't, or couldn't demonstrate. Matthews himself mentioned that he didn't remember ever stepping foot in the backline. Carey, on the other hand, could be swung back or in the middle to swing games. It might be in this regard that Matthews picks Carey as his GOAT due to how many ways Carey can win the game for his team.

As I said, it's a privilege to have Carey as a consensus GOAT candidate.
 

shinboner magic

Brownlow Medallist
Apr 17, 2007
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Its always an interesting footy conversation when it comes to who people believe is the greatest player to have played the game. One thing that is pretty consistent in the conversation, is it is generally between three guys, Carey, Matthews and Ablett Sr, all absolutely great players. Hawthorn fans will always say Matthews, Geelong fans will say Ablett Sr and North fans will say Carey.

In my eyes Carey is the greatest and is the most complete player to have played the game, he could do everything. But for me the one thing that I believe makes Carey the greatest when comparing the three players is, I know that Carey could do everything that Sr and Matthews could do, however, I also know that Sr and Matthews couldn't do everything that Carey could do. I might be a little biased but this to me is the reason I have him as the greatest of all time. He was a freak on the field and it was one hell of a pleasure watching him tearing up the opposition.
It’s so great reading people’s memories of the Duck - it was such a great time to support our club.
Every story told takes you to those great days/nights/mornings
 

Twinkletoes

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Ablett was freakishly talented. Probably more so than Carey. It was very much the Ablett show though. Carey made all his teammates significantly better players.
Yep and, tbh, I feared Buddha Hocking more than Ablett Snr throughout the 90’s. Like Ablett Jnr v North, there was little we could do to quell Hocking’s dominance whereas we COULD stymie Ablett Snr.
 

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