Carey vs Statistical Equals and Betters

[Damon_3388]

How would you guys compare Carey and Derm in their later years with Adelaide and Collingwood/Sydney respectively?

They were both shadows of their best selves as they got older, but Carey definitely aged better.

At the age Carey was at the time of the first game of his two-year stint for Adelaide (31 years, 307 days), Brereton was already nine months retired.

Going back further, at the same age that Brereton was essentially cooked as a footballer (just turned 27, end of 1991), Carey was in the midst of arguably his finest individual season in 1998, after returning from shoulder surgery - 25 games, 489 disposals (career-high), 193 marks (2nd-most of his career), 80 goals (2nd-most of his career), 40 tackles (career high), 20 Brownlow votes (career-high, equal-6th in the count), GF appearance, All-Australian Captain, AFLPA MVP and club B&F. Carey would go on to have two more great years after that (All-Australian Captain and double-figure Brownlow votes in both 1999 and 2000, along with a Premiership in 1999 too), before an injury-riddled 2001, the season off in 2002, and then the Adelaide years.

 

[Monkey King]

Did I say they were? Youre the one arguing that winning flags don't matter in the worth of a career the obviously do and very heavily

Did I say you said that?

I’ve not posted any such thing. I just said flags are not the only thing that matters.

 

[Monkey King]

By the same age that Brereton was essentially cooked as a footballer (just turned 27, end of 1991),

I think I recall Dermie having to sell his sports car around this time coz his hips were so shot that just getting in and out of the thing was causing them to flare up badly.

 

[Fluro Boots]

I personally think Derm would trade 3 flags in exchange to be regarded as the best player of all time by many.

I personally think any player that would do so wouldn't deserve the mantle.

 

[Fluro Boots]

Carey was the successor to the throne, and his reign was one of legend

 

[JVseven]

Where’s Carey at?

 

[MightyHawks]

I personally think Derm would trade 3 flags in exchange to be regarded as the best player of all time by many.

Sure

5 time Day 2 time Night sounds ok

 

[Roddy]

I love Derm, he’s one of my favourite players of all time. But I think Carey is the greatest forward ever to play the game. Derm suffers only by comparison.
This is as individual players. I’d still WAY prefer Derm’s career.

 

[doppleganger]

What a funny thread.

First off have OP providing a stats comparison where Carey is roughly 20% better in most key stats like disposals, marks and goals.

That in itself pretty much should be the end of it, Dermie was great yet Carey was 20% better.

Then rest of thread is dribble about Dermie won more flags so had a more complete career...WTF does that have to do with who the better player is?

Premierships are a team based award.

Stevie Johnson won multiple flags for the Cats, G.Ablett Snr didn't win any...has nothing to do with their respective individual talents.

 

[Tas]

Hawks during the era had an insanely strong side, Carey walked up into a mediocre side when he was young and pretty much made the top 4 for almost the entirety of his career once he was appointed captain when Pagan took over.

He would just rip apart games week after week, it is something statistics don't show, in some games Carey had to compete against 3 or more people hanging on to him and was well contained for a half or even three quarters, but he would often rise to the occasion and win the game in the space of a quarter or so. Statistically that may seem like a mediocre effort but in the context of what was going on it was often a Herculean effort.

When you hear someone like Dunstall talk about what it was like to play with that Hawthorn side and then see him talk about the other players of that generation like Lockett, Ablett and Carey who played in far weaker sides and his admiration for what they were able to achieve in those sides, it says a lot about not reading too much into statistics, especially statistics across different eras.

As good as I think Franklin is as a player, Paul Roos recently said he is nowhere near as good as Carey was. Not sure where Franklin is statistically, he will probably surpass Carey if he hasn't already, but even Paul Roos said "We’re all Buddy fans,” Roos concluded, “but if I had to pick between Buddy or Wayne Carey, I’d pick Wayne Carey every week."

 

[hilly]

Would the likes of Nick Riewoldt and Matthew Pavlich have the right to be satisfied with their careers?

100%.

The measure of flags, especially in the modern age of being a professional footballer, is overrated.

Oh and Carey easily. Unfair on Brereton who was a great player in his own right.

 

[Duskfire]

I always find it hard to compare players directly, mostly because each individual has their own roles to play. However in terms of reputation, Wayne Carey will probably be remembered for as long as the sport exists, I doubt Dermie will.

However I do admire Dermiew perseverance. He seemed constantly buggered yet his pain threshold was amazing.

 

[aflcliche]

It seems Carey gets rated lower the longer he's retired

 

[Collins-Langford-Ayres]

Tier 1 - Carey
Tier 2 - Riewoldt and Pav
Tier 3 - Brereton and Kernahan
Tier 4 - Brown and Tredrea
Tier 5 - Loewe and Schwartz

 

[Bestevaer]

I personally think Derm would trade 3 flags in exchange to be regarded as the best player of all time by many.

Pretty sure Dermie rates himself highly, also pretty sure he rates his own opinions above all else.

Great player, great Hawk, one of my favorites, but Carey was next level. Nothing wrong with saying that.
When people say a player is/was great, he's not less great because another player is better.

 

[longdonkey]

I know that.
I was being a little bit sarcastic.

Fair enough - sometimes you read some out there opinions and the sarcasm filter doesn't work.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Hawks during the era had an insanely strong side, Carey walked up into a mediocre side when he was young and pretty much made the top 4 for almost the entirety of his career once he was appointed captain when Pagan took over.

He would just rip apart games week after week, it is something statistics don't show, in some games Carey had to compete against 3 or more people hanging on to him and was well contained for a half or even three quarters, but he would often rise to the occasion and win the game in the space of a quarter or so. Statistically that may seem like a mediocre effort but in the context of what was going on it was often a Herculean effort.

When you hear someone like Dunstall talk about what it was like to play with that Hawthorn side and then see him talk about the other players of that generation like Lockett, Ablett and Carey who played in far weaker sides and his admiration for what they were able to achieve in those sides, it says a lot about not reading too much into statistics, especially statistics across different eras.

As good as I think Franklin is as a player, Paul Roos recently said he is nowhere near as good as Carey was. Not sure where Franklin is statistically, he will probably surpass Carey if he hasn't already, but even Paul Roos said "We’re all Buddy fans,” Roos concluded, “but if I had to pick between Buddy or Wayne Carey, I’d pick Wayne Carey every week."

Not having a go at Carey's brilliance or place as the best CHF, but the North that Carey walked into with his other mates were a ridiculously talented side who I thought was guaranteed 2 flags if not more. I think most people question whether they under achieved, while still celebrating their achievements. Carey was never a one man team.

 

[Luv_our_club]

I always find it hard to compare players directly, mostly because each individual has their own roles to play. However in terms of reputation, Wayne Carey will probably be remembered for as long as the sport exists, I doubt Dermie will.

However I do admire Dermiew perseverance. He seemed constantly buggered yet his pain threshold was amazing.

Dermott will be forgotten on the day that the 1989 Grand Final is forgotten. Wishful thinking! ha ha

In terms of his "ranking" he has already been forgotten, massively underrated or ignored, imo. I think this may be due to a number of things: his inconsistency during H&A due to suspension and injury; his violence on field pissed people off; his commentary style, his virtually career ending injuries in his mid 20s. I am just guessing really, but people say these things.

Carey's ability and influence are not captured by stats, whereas other players are flattered by stats. But you are right, people will forever shower praise on him.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Tier 1 - Carey
Tier 2 - Riewoldt and Pav
Tier 3 - Brereton and Kernahan
Tier 4 - Brown and Tredrea
Tier 5 - Loewe and Schwartz

I don't mind this table. I am sure there are greats pre-1980's that fit in there too. Some people would be offended having Derm on the same line as Sticks. i would have them both ahead of Pav.


And is Buddy a CHF? I supposed that will be answered when he retires.
A lot of people rate Hall very highly, too. And some rate Richo as a CHF... I see him more FF.

 

[demondavey]

Where’s Carey at?

You're all over that call aren't you? I've seen you sneakily whip that out in your random thread postings

 

[demondavey]

Tier 1 - Carey
Tier 2 - Riewoldt and Pav
Tier 3 - Brereton and Kernahan
Tier 4 - Brown and Tredrea
Tier 5 - Loewe and Schwartz

Carey & Franklin
Tier 2 - Riewoldt & Kernahan
Tier 3 - Pav, Tredrea, Loewe & Brereton
Tier 4 - Schwartz & Brown.

Brereton gets the nod in tier 3 due to his ability to perform in finals, not due to consistency and longevity. There's no way Brown is ahead of Loewe, I just don't rate him as much as people do.

 

[demondavey]

I don't mind this table. I am sure there are greats pre-1980's that fit in there too. Some people would be offended having Derm on the same line as Sticks. i would have them both ahead of Pav.


And is Buddy a CHF? I supposed that will be answered when he retires.
A lot of people rate Hall very highly, too. And some rate Richo as a CHF... I see him more FF.

I see Richo and Hall as FF. From what I've seen of FF (say 2000 on) and including plugger, Dunstall and Ablett as they were next level:

Lockett, Ablett & Dunstall
Tier 1 - Lloyd, Hall & Richo
Tier 2 - Lynch, S Rocca, Neitz
Tier 3 - Fevola, Bradshaw, Modra
Tier 4 - O'loughlin, Riewoldt, Roughead

 

[RUNVS]

As good as I think Franklin is as a player, Paul Roos recently said he is nowhere near as good as Carey was. Not sure where Franklin is statistically, he will probably surpass Carey if he hasn't already, but even Paul Roos said "We’re all Buddy fans,” Roos concluded, “but if I had to pick between Buddy or Wayne Carey, I’d pick Wayne Carey every week."

We can actually compare them as Carey played 272 games and Frankin is on 271 games right now

Franklin (stat) Carey
2949 (Kicks) 3217
1291 (Handballs) 1272
4240 (Disposals) 4489
1480 (Marks) 1830
860 (Goals) 727
616 (Behinds) 457
714 (Tackles) 319

 

[demondavey]

We can actually compare them as Carey played 272 games and Frankin is on 271 games right now

Franklin (stat) Carey
2949 (Kicks) 3217
1291 (Handballs) 1272
4240 (Disposals) 4489
1480 (Marks) 1830
860 (Goals) 727
616 (Behinds) 457
714 (Tackles) 319

Carey - kicks, disposals, marks.
Buddy - Handballs, goals, behinds, tackles.

As Franklin is still going, you'd think he would get the duck covered. The interesting one is marks, Carey is well ahead here, which shows that Franklin is absolutely a rover at ground level and doesn't need to mark to impact.

 

[Damon_3388]

Tier 1 - Carey
Tier 2 - Riewoldt and Pav
Tier 3 - Brereton and Kernahan
Tier 4 - Brown and Tredrea
Tier 5 - Loewe and Schwartz

Loewe underrated, Pavlich and Schwartz overrated here.