Analysis Carlton - Has there ever been a team with as many traded-in players?

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RobsJourney

RobsJourney

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Oct 13, 2010
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(Preface: This post ended up way longer than I intended)
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Never made a post on the mainboard, howdy and hope all are well. This may have already been brought up before and if so I apologise.

I should mention that I'm not taking the piss out of Carlton here, I'm just genuinely curious if there is a stat anywhere for this.

When Cerra comes back in for round 3 and with the likely swap of McDonald (Melb) for Young (Dogs), Carlton's 22 will be even more heavily made up of players from other teams.

I'm not a Blues fan so I might be wrong on this, but here is a mock-up of their best 26, not too far off what they will be fielding this weekend. Those in bold are players acquired from other clubs:


B: Marchbank, Weitering, Docherty
HB: Williams, McGovern, Saad
C: Walsh, Cripps, Fisher
HF: Martin, C. Curnow, Durdin
F: Silvagni, McKay, Cuningham
R: Pittonet, Cerra, Kennedy
Int: De Koning, Hewett, O'Brien, E. Curnow

emg: Setterfield, Newman, Williamson, Dow


In the best 22 alone there are ten players traded in. Five of the players Carlton did draft were top 10 picks, two of which were pick 1, two were top 10 picks, and then lastly Cripps was almost top ten (pick 13 but may as well have been pick 1 or 2, only Bontempelli rivals him from that draft).

I left out guys like McDonald, Young, Plowman, Newnes, and Stocker, all in my mind probably just as worthy of being an emergency as the guys I put there, and perhaps Blues fans even see some of them as being best 26 or even best 22 worthy. Well... even four of those five were traded in.

Again, I'm not having a crack I'm just genuinely curious if there is a stat anywhere for the team that fielded (or had on their list in any given year) the most players that were not originally drafted by the club?

Just for reference - and also to get ahead of anyone who potentially has a stab at Richmond for me making this post - the Tigers fielded five players in the 2019 Grand Final not originally drafted by the club; Bachar Houli, Josh Caddy, Tom Lynch, Toby Nankervis, and Dion Prestia. Carlton might comparably be able to say something similar about any number of their trade-ins, but it's worth noting that of those Richmond five, three were on the scrap heap anyway (Houli, Caddy, and Nankervis) with their respective clubs, so weren't exactly "poached".

Anyhow, Carlton is looking very strong both on paper and on-field at the moment, but wow, I don't know that I've ever seen such a diverse 22, such a mix of super-high draft picks plus traded-in players. Surely their time is now?

I think at this point it has become very astute list management, but I imagine some might think differently.

Lastly, they must have the most stretched salary cap in the league now surely? All of Weitering, Williams, Saad, Walsh, Cripps, McKay, Cerra and if not now (due to injury) then soon C. Curnow, would be on fairly massive coin?

Anyway cheers, one more time I'll say this is not a stab at your team, you've genuinely been exciting to watch so far this season, all the best.
 
Sydney in the mid to late 2000's had a lot. From memory Jolly, Mattner, Shaw, Craig Bolton, Hall, Davis, Richards, Kennedy, McGlynn, Mumford. I am sure I am forgetting more than a few.
 

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RobsJourney said:
(Preface: This post ended up way longer than I intended)
----------------------------------------------------------------


Never made a post on the mainboard, howdy and hope all are well. This may have already been brought up before and if so I apologise.

I should mention that I'm not taking the piss out of Carlton here, I'm just genuinely curious if there is a stat anywhere for this.

When Cerra comes back in for round 3 and with the likely swap of McDonald (Melb) for Young (Dogs), Carlton's 22 will be even more heavily made up of players from other teams.

I'm not a Blues fan so I might be wrong on this, but here is a mock-up of their best 26, not too far off what they will be fielding this weekend. Those in bold are players acquired from other clubs:


B: Marchbank, Weitering, Docherty
HB: Williams, McGovern, Saad
C: Walsh, Cripps, Fisher
HF: Martin, C. Curnow, Durdin
F: Silvagni, McKay, Cuningham
R: Pittonet, Cerra, Kennedy
Int: De Koning, Hewett, O'Brien, E. Curnow

emg: Setterfield, Newman, Williamson, Dow


In the best 22 alone there are ten players traded in. Five of the players Carlton did draft were top 10 picks, two of which were pick 1, two were top 10 picks, and then lastly Cripps was almost top ten (pick 13 but may as well have been pick 1 or 2, only Bontempelli rivals him from that draft).

I left out guys like McDonald, Young, Plowman, Newnes, and Stocker, all in my mind probably just as worthy of being an emergency as the guys I put there, and perhaps Blues fans even see some of them as being best 26 or even best 22 worthy. Well... even four of those five were traded in.

Again, I'm not having a crack I'm just genuinely curious if there is a stat anywhere for the team that fielded (or had on their list in any given year) the most players that were not originally drafted by the club?

Just for reference - and also to get ahead of anyone who potentially has a stab at Richmond for me making this post - the Tigers fielded five players in the 2019 Grand Final not originally drafted by the club; Bachar Houli, Josh Caddy, Tom Lynch, Toby Nankervis, and Dion Prestia. Carlton might comparably be able to say something similar about any number of their trade-ins, but it's worth noting that of those Richmond five, three were on the scrap heap anyway (Houli, Caddy, and Nankervis) with their respective clubs, so weren't exactly "poached".

Anyhow, Carlton is looking very strong both on paper and on-field at the moment, but wow, I don't know that I've ever seen such a diverse 22, such a mix of super-high draft picks plus traded-in players. Surely their time is now?

I think at this point it has become very astute list management, but I imagine some might think differently.

Lastly, they must have the most stretched salary cap in the league now surely? All of Weitering, Williams, Saad, Walsh, Cripps, McKay, Cerra and if not now (due to injury) then soon C. Curnow, would be on fairly massive coin?

Anyway cheers, one more time I'll say this is not a stab at your team, you've genuinely been exciting to watch so far this season, all the best.
Click to expand...
We do have a fair few, but importantly some of them have been around almost their entire senior AFL careers. Docherty, Kennedy, Marchbank, Pittonet and Setterfield I would barely even consider imports at this point. Theyve been around long enough and early enough in their careers that its practically the equivalent of being drafted here.

The salary cap comes down simply to front ending contracts when we had absolute spuds on the list and nobody else worth paying
 
The Hawthorn 3-peat team that people seem to point to as a team of trade-ins only had a maximum of 7:
Josh Gibson, Ben McEvoy, Shaun Burgoyne, Brian Lake, James Frawley (2015 only), Jack Gunston, David Hale, Matt Spangher (2014 only), Jon Simpkin (2013 only)

Other trade-ins in the squad that didn't play in the big games:
O'Rourke, Ceglar

The current Carlton team does seem to have a lot - but as the game becomes more professional, this is what we would expect to see.
 
00Stinger said:
St Kilda at some stage over the last year or two might be the only other one I can think of
Click to expand...

St Kilda just this year have:
  • Butler
  • Campbell
  • Crouch
  • Hannebery
  • Higgins
  • Hill
  • Howard
  • Jones
  • Kent
  • Membrey
  • Ryder
  • Steele

All of whom can make legitimate claims to being best 22.
 
Forward Press said:
St Kilda just this year have:
  • Butler
  • Campbell
  • Crouch
  • Hannebery
  • Higgins
  • Hill
  • Howard
  • Jones
  • Kent
  • Membrey
  • Ryder
  • Steele

All of whom can make legitimate claims to being best 22.
Click to expand...
Strange that most their salary cap goes on that collective when there’s only two or three in that list worth keeping longer than another season.
 
Refreshing to see a fair and balanced post on the matter. Great stuff.

It’s an interesting way to build the list and it stems from the lack of talent we had at the beginning of the rebuild. We butchered about 5 drafts in a row before 2015 and needed to supplement the age profile somehow. GWS created the perfect storm.

I expect to see “homegrown” talents Philp, Kemp, Honey and Carroll push for best 22 over the next 18 months. I also expect us to chase a ready made KPD this off-season, quality dependent on cap space. I don’t care where the talent comes from as long as it is there.
 
We traded in a lot of youngsters to assist with our rebuild; most would consider them Carlton players (did Setterfield and Kennedy even get a game for GWS?).

Saad & Williams were genuine top-ups - I'll give you that.

In a perfect world Cerra and Hewett aren't required as we picked Dow and SPS who should've kicked on, but didn't. Smart recruiting to cover our poor drafting/development tbh.

I'll be shocked if our salary cap is bursting. SOS overpaid and front-loaded a lot of the players you listed early in their careers so they would take unders later. From all reports Cripps took unders as has Walsh. No way does Williams get his $ figure renewed either. C Curnow has been getting paid $800k a year since he was 20 and has been injured the whole time, he should be cheap on his next contract.
 
refresh said:
Or looks to go elsewhere
Click to expand...
You think a bloke whos been on the injury list for 3 years getting paid boatloads of cash to sit on the sidelines is going to turn his back on the club thats taken care of him and that his brother plays for because his next contract wont be as large?
 
The most I can think of off the top of my head is GWS from 2016 to 2017 with a dozen or so players
Doubtful they all got a run in the same game. My guess is possibly 9 or 10 of them in the team at any one time.

Tom Scully (Melb) *
Phil Davis (Adel) *
Callan Ward (W.B) *
Heath Shaw (Coll)
Shane Mumford (Syd)
Steve Johnson (Geel)
Ryan Griffen (W.B)
Brett Deledio (Rich) 2017
Matt de Boer (Freo) 2017
Sam Reid (W.B.)
Rhys Palmer (Freo) 2016
Joel Patfull (Bris) 2016
Tendai Mzungu (Freo) 2017
Dawson Simpson (Geel) 2017

* The first 3 weren't traded in, but were out-of-contract 'year zero' signings,
 
WalshistheGOAT said:
You think a bloke whos been on the injury list for 3 years getting paid boatloads of cash to sit on the sidelines is going to turn his back on the club thats taken care of him and that his brother plays for because his next contract wont be as large?
Click to expand...
I can't speak for him. But market forces ensures that what you hope happens and a low below market contract is signed is just wishful thinking. A player agent would be sacked.
 

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refresh said:
I can't speak for him. But market forces ensures that what you hope happens and a low below market contract is signed is just wishful thinking. A player agent would be sacked.
Click to expand...
Not at all. Curnow has not shown an ability to stay on the park or impact games as consistently as he used to. A new contract wouldnt be in the same ballpark as when he was our leading goal kicker and the best young key in the comp. Market wise hes a huge flight risk and that diminishes his value
 
The current Essendon team has 10 trade ins...

Jake Stringer (W.B)
Devon Smith (GWS)
Dylan Shiel (GWS)
Peter Wright (G.C)
Jake Kelly (Adel)
Jye Caldwell (GWS)
Nick Hind (St K)
Tom Cutler (Bris)
James Stewart (GWS)
Will Snelling (Port)


Hawthorn has 11 players from others clubs (some out injured or in the VFL)

Ben McEvoy
Jack Gunston
Tom Mitchell
Jaeger O'Meara
Chad Wingard
Jack Scrimshaw
Sam Frost
Jarman Impey
Tom Phillips
Max Lynch
Kyle Hartigan



North Melbourne has a dozen or so

Aaron Hall (G.C)
Jared Polec (Port)
Jaiden Stephenson (Coll)
Hugh Greenwood (G.C)
Aiden Bonar (GWS)
Lachie Young (W.B)
Aidan Corr (GWS)
Josh Walker (Bris)
Callum Coleman-Jones (Rich)
Atu Bosenavalugi (Coll)
Jed Anderson (Haw)
Tom Lynch (Adel)
 
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RobsJourney said:
I'm just genuinely curious if there is a stat anywhere for the team that fielded (or had on their list in any given year) the most players that were not originally drafted by the club?
Click to expand...
Wow, you really have no idea about much beyond a few seasons it would seem.
I think there would be heaps.
So more obvious ones that should have come to your mind, in a few seconds would be Brisbane Bears in 1987.
I think some other obvious ones would be Fremantle in early days too.

They are the most obvious ones but there would be plenty if really look deep.

Even your own club, it does not seem too long ago Ricky Petterd, Chris Knights, Ivan Maric, Shaun grigg, Shaun Hampson, Troy Chaplin, Matt Thomas, Aaron Edwards, Orren Stephenson, Bachar Houli and Anthony Miles were around the club at same time to fill lots of holes.

In fact, thinking back to my own club again, I think when we lost drafts picks in early 2000's and Pagan was coach we would have had more from other clubs than we do now.

Right now seems a good mix to support the players we drafted with from ground zero at end of 2015 with some other players from other clubs to make up for some of horrible lack of drafting done in four or so years before that.

We in best place now in terms of list that we been in since building up from the draft became a thing.
End of 2015 our list was busted at ground zero territory and then deep into draft mode to build up foundations from the likes of Weitering, McKay, Curnow, Cuningham and Silvagni. Hopefully we have Cuniningham back from injury towards middle of season and can only improve from there.
 
Imported Premiership Dees:

ED LANGDON - best running wingman in the AFL, should be All-Australian.
JAKE LEVER - best intercept defender in the AFL of all time, current All-Australian.
STEVIE MAY - best full back in the AFL, current All-Australian.
BEN BROWN - best ful forward in the AFL and 2022 Coleman Medalist, Robbed of All-Australian previously because he played for unfashionable Kangaroo team. Will be All-Australian in 2022.
MITCH HIBBERD - Pumped Dustin Martin so hard he left the field at half time and has never been the same since. All-Australian.

That's how you add to a list.
Take notes pleb teams.
 
IMO this is not an optimal way to build a premiership list and I can't recall examples of it working with such a high level of imported players. It'll be really interesting to see if the Blues can pull it off to win a flag with this approach.

The reason I don't think it's optimal is whether via trade asset or salary, as a general rule you pay more to bring players across then drafting them/ paying them as home grown players.

Will be interested to see their list management approach in the off season.
 
refresh said:
Or looks to go elsewhere
Click to expand...

Yeah just like Cripps was going to WCE (x2) or McKay to North, or not enough cap space for Walsh etc etc

I'll be shocked if any of our key players leave for $$$ without seeing any success with us. They seem like a pretty loyal group who have been on a good wicket financially since being at the club.
 
RobsJourney said:
B: Marchbank, Weitering, Docherty
HB: Williams, McGovern, Saad
C: Walsh, Cripps, Fisher
HF: Martin, C. Curnow, Durdin
F: Silvagni, McKay, Cuningham
R: Pittonet, Cerra, Kennedy
Int: De Koning, Hewett, O'Brien, E. Curnow

emg: Setterfield, Newman, Williamson, Dow

In the best 22 alone there are ten players traded in.
Click to expand...

Round 4, 2021: Fremantle v Hawthorn

Including Burgoyne the sub, 12 players from Hawthorn's team were from other clubs

B..... Sam Frost, Kyle Hartigan, Blake Hardwick
HB.. Jarman Impey, Michael Hartley, Changkuoth Jiath
C.... Dylan Moore, Jaeger O’Meara, Harry Morrison
HF.... Luke Breust, Tim O’Brien, Chad Wingard
F..... Tyler Brockman, Mitch Lewis, Dan Howe

FOLL... Ben McEvoy, Tom Mitchell, James Worpel

I/C... Jonathon Ceglar, Liam Shiels, Jack Scrimshaw, Tom Phillips

Sub... Shaun Burgoyne
 
Last edited:
juss said:
IMO this is not an optimal way to build a premiership list and I can't recall examples of it working with such a high level of imported players. It'll be really interesting to see if the Blues can pull it off to win a flag with this approach.

The reason I don't think it's optimal is whether via trade asset or salary, as a general rule you pay more to bring players across then drafting them/ paying them as home grown players.

Will be interested to see their list management approach in the off season.
Click to expand...

Of that list, who do you see that we would be overpaying vs. what they would be worth if we had drafted them ourselves?

I see Williams, McGovern (ends this year), maybe Saad? But apparently ours and Essendons offer weren't far off.

Who else?
 
juss said:
IMO this is not an optimal way to build a premiership list and I can't recall examples of it working with such a high level of imported players. It'll be really interesting to see if the Blues can pull it off to win a flag with this approach.
Click to expand...
Our previous premiership team had about 8 players that made their debut at other clubs when it 21 players a side.
We probably on track to have about 8 in our next one too.
 
If it comes off, and that is a big if, it will be deemed as elite strategy. Lots of the early moves were pulling in numbers to balance the profile and have a shot at the dartboard as it were. Plenty of fails there but no big loss to the overall list.

The last few years have definitely been on a needs basis and the list looks to be balancing up nicely bar a potential gaping KPD hole

AFL looks to overseas sports who have been working these same mechanics for years. The trading in and out of players is not going away and will only accelerate.


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com
 
Forward Press said:
St Kilda just this year have:
  • Butler
  • Campbell
  • Crouch
  • Hannebery
  • Higgins
  • Hill
  • Howard
  • Jones
  • Kent
  • Membrey
  • Ryder
  • Steele

All of whom can make legitimate claims to being best 22.
Click to expand...
I just randomly clicked on Saints game from last season.
Round 3 team in 2021 had Josh Battle and Jack Steele from GWS
Jack Higgins and Dan Butler from Richmond
Mason Wood from North
Shaun McKernan from Dons and Crows
Jake Carlisle from Dons
Brad Crouch from Crows
Brad Hill from Dockers and Dawks
Zak Jones from Swans
Tim Membrey from Swans
Dougal Howard from Powder

Also had Ryder, Kent, Hannebery, Paul Hunter and James Frawley that played in some other games in the season.

Lienert from Port another guy likely to play games this season for them.
 
juss said:
IMO this is not an optimal way to build a premiership list and I can't recall examples of it working with such a high level of imported players. It'll be really interesting to see if the Blues can pull it off to win a flag with this approach.

The reason I don't think it's optimal is whether via trade asset or salary, as a general rule you pay more to bring players across then drafting them/ paying them as home grown players.

Will be interested to see their list management approach in the off season.
Click to expand...

Fair points.

One thing to note with Carltons imports is that a fair few of them came at pretty much the start of their senior careers (Marchbank, Setterfield, Kennedy, Docherty, Pittonet). They werent big money aquisitions and pretty much like draftees with a few years in the system.

Then you have the big money recruits that were brought in when we were rubbish (McGovern, Martin). Their contracts are up next year and were heavily front loaded so wont really impact us going forward.

Of the recruits in the last 2 years Saad (600k), Cerra (700k) and Hewett (450k) all are getting paid market rate so not a huge issue salary capwise. Freo offered Cerra more then us and Essendon only 50k a year less for Saad.

The only guy that we overpaid to aquire that could hurt us going forward is Williams. If he is on 750-850k as reported for 6 years I doubt he can live up to his contract.
 
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