Carlton - How did they get to here?

[Lovers]

In 2011 Carlton lost a semi-final to West Coast in Perth by 3 points. From that team, coached by Brett Ratten, only Marc Murphy (then 24) and Kade Simpson (27) played last night.

Their team that day included the now retired Chris Judd (then 28), Andrew Carrazzo (27), Michael Jamison (25), Heath Scotland (31) and Andrew Walker (25) but also Eddie Betts (then 24), Jeff Garlett (22), Mitch Robinson (22), Zach Tuohy (21), Lachie Henderson (21) and Chris Yarran (20) who moved on to other clubs. Bryce Gibbs (22) and Matthew Kreuzer (22) missed the match.

Since 2011

Trades in – Rating 4/10 - This is more of an 8

Traded in Sam Docherty ahead of 2014 (for pick #33). - THATS A MASSIVE WIN
Traded in Andrejs Everitt (in effect for Shaun Hampson). Everitt was servicable
Traded in a host of GWS players ahead of 2016, 2017 and 2018 seasons including Jed Lamb, Andrew Phillips, Lachie Plowman, Caleb Marchbank, Jarrod Pickett and Matthew Kennedy. Kennedy plowman marchbank and soon pickett are all locks in the side
Gave up a pick #7 and #10, received a pick #17, #19 and #33.
Traded in Liam Jones for pick #46 ahead of 2015.

Trades out – Rating 3/10

Traded out Jeff Garlett in effect for pick #60 ahead of 2015.
Traded out Troy Menzel (former pick #11) for #33 and Sam Kerridge ahead of 2016.
this troy menzel trade was an absolute belter for carlton... got in kerridge sumner phillips lamb plowman and all it cost was trading menzel who was delisted, plowman alone is worth the trade
Traded out Lachie Henderson for pick #17 and Chris Yarran for #23 ahead of 2016.
Traded out Zach Tuohy for Billie Smedts ahead of 2017.

Free agency – Rating 1/10

Signed Dale Thomas as a free agent ahead of 2014. Thomas has been invaluable to a side with no experience off field at least has been useful on field pre 2017 pretty bad
Lost Eddie Betts as free agent ahead of 2014.

Drafts –Rating 4/10

From 2011 Sam Rowe played last night.
From 2012 Nick Graham and Levi Casboult were not selected last night. Zach Tuohy is now at Geelong.
From 2013 Patrick Cripps and Ed Curnow played. Nick Holman is now at the Gold Coast.
2014 was a write-off. Cripps and curnow are incredible, holman is still s**t just playing a tackling role in a empty side.

High-end talent from recent years - 2015’s Jacob Weitering (#1), Charlie Curnow (#12) and Harry McKay (#10), 2016’s Sam Petrevski-Seton (#6) and Zac Fisher (#27), and 2017’s Paddy Dow (Pick #3) and Lochie O’Brien (#10) still needs time to mature.

 

[Mego Red]

You failed your research at first hurdle of reading it.
Waite, Gibbs and Kruezer all missed that semi-final.
How you missed Waite, **** knows but s**t bloody research it is.

Could not be bothered reading rest as if you stuff up something that obvious do not hold out much hope for rest of post.

Really? THAT was the reason you decided not to read it?? Because he listed one player as on the ground instead of absent that week??

 

[Mego Red]

Yikes, you're pretty generous.

Everitt was mediocre at three clubs.

Plowman is a decent battler, and that trade was probably a nil all draw.

Daisy has been close to a disaster.

Ed Curnow probably doesn't play in half the sides in the AFL. Another solid battler.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Yikes, you're pretty generous.

Everitt was mediocre at three clubs.

Plowman is a decent battler, and that trade was probably a nil all draw.

Daisy has been close to a disaster.

Ed Curnow probably doesn't play in half the sides in the AFL. Another solid battler.

Everitt may have been mediocre, but he did what was required of him. The only thing bad about this was Malthouse later regretting the decision to bring him in. That tells me how ridiculous he is because there were far worse coming through the doors on bigger pay packets when he was at the helm (*cough* Jaksch).

Plowman's best is most certainly a valuable asset. Perhaps he will prosper more when the pressure gets taken off the backline.

Spot on with Daisy though. He's been okay the past couple of years, but that doesn't change the disaster that was getting him in the first place at the expense of Betts.

Rubbish with Ed. He's arguably the hardest working player in the league. That alone would have him first selected by coaches for just about every team. He's a strong pressure applier and the ideal link-up player, whose skill level seems rather dependent on the space a team creates (that way he'd be bombing it carelessly less).

 

[Pablito]

I stopped reading at tuohey for smedts.

If you go out of your way to articulately take a swing at a club without getting your facts straight, you look like a fool.

 

[footyfan1978]

Really? THAT was the reason you decided not to read it??

yes, do your research or * off with half baked flimsy views.

 

[Mego Red]

yes, do your research or **** off with half baked flimsy views.

Because he listed one player as on the ground instead of absent that week??

He WAS still part of your team. That he was on or off the ground for one week is meaningless next to the point he was making.

 

[adammania9]

One shame about Carlton is the robbing of Nick Duigan’s career. He wasn’t young but he was fantastic, and would have been a key pillar in leading this rebuild. Some pundits thought he’d succeed Judd as captain before his injuries.

 

[Monocle]

Pretty simple when you appoint the wrong people to the job .........things go pear shape pretty quickly.

Do it too many times in quick succession and it really turns to s**t.

These guys in general.


Two of theses in particular.



The final piece of the puzzle was appointing "Yesterdays Man" with a massive ego and unhealthy sense of self importance as Head Coach .... you can learn a lot form MM but its difficult to teach him anything.... suffers badly from "Not Invented Here Syndrome"



And the public shafting of an younger more "in touch" Coach who just happened to be a Club Stalwart.
When you turn on your own..... and bring outsiders in to be the saviour ( and they fail ) ... things start to implode.





As bad as Carlton are at the moment IMO they are on the right track, its going to take time , but I think they now have better people in place and structures at the Club.

Always easy to sink the slipper in when a Club is at an all time low.

And having lived in Melbourne for a decade ,when Carlton were up and about at the pointy end of things , I do understand those who take joy in dishing it out to ..... an at times arrogant supporter base.

Some , certainly not all Carlton fans got caught up in the "John Elliot" brashness , cockiness and belief of self entitlement.

The "Comeuppance " that they have endured of recent is a bitter pill to swallow but Ultimately it will make them culturally a much better Club.

At the end of the day the AFL need brand Carlton firing and they will ensure that it happens.

 

[Tbonefreo]

I miss Ratten eating his lollies

 

[theGav56]

Unfortunately the Friday night gravy train negatively impacts my potential sympathy.

What I hope doesn't happen is compo picks. This club needs to get it's player development focus tuned up before that happens.

 

[footyfan1978]

Because he listed one player as on the ground instead of absent that week??

Read my previous post.

 

[footyfan1978]

I miss Ratten eating his lollies

I miss Timmy Watson eating jelly babies at the after match press conference.

 

[Tbonefreo]

I miss Timmy Watson eating jelly babies at the after match press conference.

Remember Goddard?

Best part of our game bar none those ******* snacks

 

[footyfan1978]

Remember Goddard?

Best part of our game bar none those ******* snacks

I will NEVER forget Goddard. Never!!!
Ironically, it is how we got here...

 

[Malifice]

Ed Curnow probably doesn't play in half the sides in the AFL. Another solid battler.

What? He's one of the best taggers in the AFL. He wins his fair share of it as well.

Ranked 4th in Total Tackles

Ranked 20th in Total Supercoach Score

Ranked 19th in Total AFL Fantasy Score

Ranked 19th in Total Stoppage Clearances

Ranked 3rd in Tackles Per Game

Ranked 19th in Supercoach Score Per Game

Ranked 12th in AFL Fantasy Score Per Game

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-carlton-blues--edward-curnow

Hes averaging over 26 disposals (11 contested) and 5 clearances per game. He's had 5 games of 30+ disposals this year.

He doesnt have much hurt factor, but he'd easily get in pretty much every side in the AFL. We could get in another 2 or 3 A grade mids, and Ed is still best 22.

 

[Mego Red]

What? He's one of the best taggers in the AFL. He wins his fair share of it as well.

Ranked 4th in Total Tackles

Ranked 20th in Total Supercoach Score

Ranked 19th in Total AFL Fantasy Score

Ranked 19th in Total Stoppage Clearances

Ranked 3rd in Tackles Per Game

Ranked 19th in Supercoach Score Per Game

Ranked 12th in AFL Fantasy Score Per Game

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pp-carlton-blues--edward-curnow

Hes averaging over 26 disposals (11 contested) and 5 clearances per game. He's had 5 games of 30+ disposals this year.

He doesnt have much hurt factor, but he'd easily get in pretty much every side in the AFL. We could get in another 2 or 3 A grade mids, and Ed is still best 22.

I think most sides have four or five mids a LONG way better than Ed Curnow. In a few sides, he scrapes in as one of the last mids picked.

Don't get confused by getting stats in a terrible team. Most players would do that. It's the lack of hurt that he offers that would hold him back.

 

[Malifice]

I think most sides have four or five mids a LONG way better than Ed Curnow. In a few sides, he scrapes in as one of the last mids picked.

OK. Well now I think you're either totally naive about football, or a troll. Neither of those things are good things to be.

You're constantly doing it, and it makes it hard to just discuss football with you without you wanting to troll or be needlessly partisan.

Ed Curnow is comfortably best 22 in every side in the AFL, Crows included. Only Geelong might struggle to slot him in seeing as they already have Selwood doing the tagging role.

 

[Mego Red]

OK. Well now I think you're either totally naive about football, or a troll. Neither of those things are good things to be.

You're constantly doing it, and it makes it hard to just discuss football with you without you wanting to troll or be needlessly partisan.

Ed Curnow is comfortably best 22 in every side in the AFL, Crows included. Only Geelong might struggle to slot him in seeing as they already have Selwood doing the tagging role.

Sorry, but it's exceedingly naive to think the third or fourth best midfielder in a historically terrible side is going to make the first 22 of every other team.

I don't think he is in any of the top eight sides.

 

[Malifice]

Sorry, but it's exceedingly naive to think the third or fourth best midfielder in a historically terrible side is going to make the first 22 of every other team.

I don't think he is in any of the top eight sides.

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

 

[Mego Red]

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

You didn't argue my point.

Every bad side in history has had players who still racked up stats.

That doesn't mean they would do the same in more competitive programs.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm insensitive. There is nothing to be gained by trolling Carlton supporters, so I'm not sure why you think that would be my motivation. Some Carlton supporters seem naive and are lashing out in some threads but that's understandable.

All I've done here is make the very obvious point that the third or fourth best midfielder in a side that is having a historically bad season isn't a guaranteed starter in better teams.

 

[premiershipvigil]

Carlton should sack Bolton and Silvagni they are showing little capacity to improve.

Until they get the basics right on game day and stop recruiting family members they will be nothing.

 

[Rusty_lucas]

You didn't argue my point.

Every bad side in history has had players who still racked up stats.

That doesn't mean they would do the same in more competitive programs.

I'm sorry if you feel I'm insensitive. There is nothing to be gained by trolling Carlton supporters, so I'm not sure why you think that would be my motivation. Some Carlton supporters seem naive and are lashing out in some threads but that's understandable.

All I've done here is make the very obvious point that the third or fourth best midfielder in a side that is having a historically bad season isn't a guaranteed starter in better teams.

i dont think you are trolling but i think you are definitely underrating him as a player or just dont watch him play enough. Hes no star and you are correct that he has minimal hurt factor with ball in hand but he is one of the best defensive players in the competition.

Every team in the top 8 has 1-2 of these players (hutchins, greenwood, s selwood, shiels, to name a few). i think curnow stacks up pretty well to all of these players.

 

[BRWB]

So you've counted high draft picks that came to us from other clubs as though they have maintained that ranking.

You say you have analysed the table in depth and determined there might be other issues at Carlton that a PP won't fix.

I wish people would listen to what the club have been saying all year, which has been echoed by our supporters on BigFooty. We lack a balanced age profile. We have very few decent players in the 24-28 year old range. We have few decent players above 24 in general for that matter.

Yes, we traded some out because most of them wanted out anyway and they were our only currency to rebuild our team via the draft. We have added a huge amount of youth in a short period of time and it is going to take time for them to come into their own. We can possibly fast track that by adding quality experienced players here and there, so the likes of Dow or Fisher don't have to be our second most checked midfielders in their 1st and 2nd seasons.

We have changed a heap in our football department, in terms of recruiting staff and development coaches. The personnel we have now were put in place to start the rebuild, and are not to blame for how we got into the position to have to undertake some a brutal rebuild. The problems were there, they have been addressed.

Same old problems underlined by the Trigg appointment and rapid firing. Why would Carlton of all clubs hire a convicted cap cheater for its CEO?

Now Carlton has hired a footy manager from another failing entity. To what end? To deliver success that Lloyd hasnt experienced or cultivated in his lengthy stint at Freo?

Carlton's coach is on his training wheels and unproven although we are seeing high picks like Weitering played fwd and then going backwards. Its an indictment on Carlton that Weitering was better in his first yr than he is now.

So really, the argument that Carlton has its s**t together and can be trusted is highly suspect.

Carton should be forced to be externally reviewed by the AFL and make prescribed changes if they want special assistance.

Also Carlton's inability to keep good players or alternately deliberately trading good players like Tuohy out has led them to their 2 win season. Either way something is still deeply wrong at Carlton and has been for a long time.

Maybe Carlton fans are just so used to mediocrity they just don't even recognise it anymore.

Rewarding Carlton's long term and ongoing incompetence with even more priority picks is just ruining kids careers and wont help.

 

[pugsville]

I couldn't care less what you think of us.

Fact is, we drafted poorly and we developed poorly for a long time. We also went for the magic Malthouse option. Many people in and around the club weren't thrilled with this situation.

When you say Carlton created the situation, are we talking Carlton the institution, the supporters, the walls of the clubhouse, the Princes Park turf? Are we talking people that are no longer there making the decisions? Have we addressed those decision makers? Is this a perpetual blame we all must share forevermore?

Every single club that fails does so because of decisions they made somewhere along the way. The AFL can't afford to have such an imbalance at the bottom. The only question is, can they afford to wait for our young players to mature, and will those young players want to wait?

Carlton traded out senior talent for draft picks, and exacerbated that by letting used senior bodies go they embraced being bad as a way of gaming the system to reap the rewards from being bad, don't want to reward such crap.

being bad is strategy. well suck it up.