Carlton - How did they get to here?

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Same old problems underlined by the Trigg appointment and rapid firing. Why would Carlton of all clubs hire a convicted cap cheater for its CEO?

Now Carlton has hired a footy manager from another failing entity. To what end? To deliver success that Lloyd hasnt experienced or cultivated in his lengthy stint at Freo?

Carlton's coach is on his training wheels and unproven although we are seeing high picks like Weitering played fwd and then going backwards. Its an indictment on Carlton that Weitering was better in his first yr than he is now.

So really, the argument that Carlton has its s**t together and can be trusted is highly suspect.

Carton should be forced to be externally reviewed by the AFL and make prescribed changes if they want special assistance.

Also Carlton's inability to keep good players or alternately deliberately trading good players like Tuohy out has led them to their 2 win season. Either way something is still deeply wrong at Carlton and has been for a long time.

Maybe Carlton fans are just so used to mediocrity they just don't even recognise it anymore.

Rewarding Carlton's long term and ongoing incompetence with even more priority picks is just ruining kids careers and wont help.

Where to start ...

We didn't recruit Trigg to cheat the cap so that episode is irrelevant. He did some very good things at Carlton, especially around our diversity, social issues and AFLW issues. He did not move to Melbourne and continued to commute. He did not grow our membership. We got someone who knows how to do that. Trigg was a stabilising influence that we need to start us off and he served his purpose.

A lot of coaches are on training wheels and unproven, until they prove something. I fail to get your point. Was he an AFL assistant coach prior? Are you suggesting we needed to recycle another sacked former coach?

Weitering was meant to be a swingman. He played forward a lot as a junior. It's an indictment on Weitering that he has fallen away. Fortunately, he's really starting to knuckle down and rediscover his drive again. AFL is a tough game.

Carlton have and are reviewing constantly. Right now, we have some ex Dogs bloke doing a review of our fitness and medical departments.

Carlton lost players who were disillusioned under Malthouse. Some were conditional in their play. Some were going out partying and fighting. We changed our culture for the better and cashed in big time on some of the trades. If they weren't going to help us have success, then we had to rebuild properly and use their currency. Tuohy was not the difference between winning and losing for us. He wanted more money than we offered, Geelong swooped and we turned him into Marchbank.

Carlton fans know exactly where we are, but more importantly where we have been. We know infinitely more than you do about our players, and our future hopes now vs then. We understand how much the culture has changed and what the mood is like around the place. Spare us your mediocrity talks when you take a superficial look at results, and have no clue as to what we have done to address things.

Those kids whose careers are being ruined as you suggest, keep extending their contracts en masse ... why do you think that is?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Carlton traded out senior talent for draft picks, and exacerbated that by letting used senior bodies go they embraced being bad as a way of gaming the system to reap the rewards from being bad, don't want to reward such crap.

being bad is strategy. well suck it up.

Ha, gaming the system ... yeah right. Where was our currency going to come from to rebuild our list Einstein? One first rounder per year for ... how long exactly? Well after those players we traded out were done and dusted, that's for sure.

 

[BRWB]

Ha, gaming the system ... yeah right. Where was our currency going to come from to rebuild our list Einstein? One first rounder per year for ... how long exactly? Well after those players we traded out were done and dusted, that's for sure.

So now you are relying on 'high performance manager' or footy manager from the Dogs, Lowe to review high performance and injuries...the same guy who oversaw record injuries at the Dogs. The same guy who oversaw and mismanaged the McCartney fiasco.

That would be like employing a footy manager who was a list manager who built the list of a club that just lost by 130 points and had 23 goals straight kicked against it.

Keep trying to justify it, but trying to sell Trigg as both a great appointment and a great sacking is laughable.

Carlton are kidding themselves if they think they are on track.

They arent kidding anyone else.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

So now you are relying on 'high performance manager' or footy manager from the Dogs, Lowe to review high performance and injuries...the same guy who oversaw record injuries at the Dogs. The same guy who oversaw and mismanaged the McCartney fiasco.

That would be like employing a footy manager who was a list manager who built the list of a club that just lost by 130 points and had 23 goals straight kicked against it.

Keep trying to justify it, but trying to sell Trigg as both a great appointment and a great sacking is laughable.

Carlton are kidding themselves if they think they are on track.

They arent kidding anyone else.

Plenty of scribes think we are on the right track. Glad you have appointed yourself the spokesperson for everyone else in the football world. Time will tell. I'll still be here.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Traded Zack Tuohy for Billie Smedts? That is being so disingenuous.

The complete Tuohy trade from a Carlton perspective was Tuohy and our 2017 second rounder out, for Marchbank, Pickett and GWS future second rounder coming back. That GWS pick was swapped with later Hawthorn selections that helped pick up Williamson. There was also later picks swapped between Carlton, GWS and Geelong.

Gave up a pick 7 and 10 and got back 17, 19 and 33 - can you plain this to me? Disingenuous again I see.

Why is only half of the Menzal trade included in the OP? Disingenuous again.

Anders Everitt traded practically for Shaun Hampson? Err no, Shaun Hampson was practically traded for Sam Docherty (one pick difference in our favour)

Why isn’t the pick swap with the Dogs to get the Charlie Curnow pick mentioned? Oops guess you missed that one?

Not to mention, we on traded that Geelong first rounder for Henderson and got #8 back from GWS.

He's also showing the value of picks after academy picks #33 for Menzel when we traded it on when it was worth #28.

Menzel and Yarran are no longer in the system. We made out like bandits with most of our trades.

More superficial rubbish and I'm wondering why the main board threads have just migrated here. Wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[BRWB]

Plenty of scribes think we are on the right track. Glad you have appointed yourself the spokesperson for everyone else in the football world. Time will tell. I'll still be here.

Time will tell. But please dont chocolate coat a turd and say its a mars bar by saying Carlton has its s**t together while making suspect appointments like Lowe and Lloyd.

At least the AFL has finally wised up to a degree and arent just throwing picks at the problem. And it is a problem. Carton have been easybeats for far too long. They have negatively impacted network ratings when they get prime time and they have regularly distorted fixtures when teams dont get to play them twice and distorted drafts with regular priority picks.

AFL should have stepped in like they did with Melbourne. Pfft Trigg and Bolton. Ask Jackson and Roos how much and get them to do it all again.

 

[TheKing101]

Pretty simple when you appoint the wrong people to the job .........things go pear shape pretty quickly.

Do it too many times in quick succession and it really turns to s**t.

These guys in general.
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Two of theses in particular.

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The final piece of the puzzle was appointing "Yesterdays Man" with a massive ego and unhealthy sense of self importance as Head Coach .... you can learn a lot form MM but its difficult to teach him anything.... suffers badly from "Not Invented Here Syndrome"

View attachment 532894

And the public shafting of an younger more "in touch" Coach who just happened to be a Club Stalwart.
When you turn on your own..... and bring outsiders in to be the saviour ( and they fail ) ... things start to implode.


View attachment 532896


As bad as Carlton are at the moment IMO they are on the right track, its going to take time , but I think they now have better people in place and structures at the Club.

Always easy to sink the slipper in when a Club is at an all time low.

And having lived in Melbourne for a decade ,when Carlton were up and about at the pointy end of things , I do understand those who take joy in dishing it out to ..... an at times arrogant supporter base.

Some , certainly not all Carlton fans got caught up in the "John Elliot" brashness , cockiness and belief of self entitlement.

The "Comeuppance " that they have endured of recent is a bitter pill to swallow but Ultimately it will make them culturally a much better Club.

At the end of the day the AFL need brand Carlton firing and they will ensure that it happens.

A very good and fair summary.

 

[My name geoff]

What if we finish above Adelaide.... is that you SOS?

You guys need to understand that Silvagni has shown a habit of picking the weakest negotiators at trade time and targeting them for deals. He did this to us when he was at GWS. There are absolutely no surprises that he has the crows on his speed dial around this time of year.

He will be picking through the crows carcas this trade week so no doubt we will get some more quality trades done at the expense of Reid and co.

 

[Drewie11]

You guys need to understand that Silvagni has shown a habit of picking the weakest negotiators at trade time and targeting them for deals. He did this to us when he was at GWS. There are absolutely no surprises that he has the crows on his speed dial around this time of year.

He will be picking through the crows carcas this trade week so no doubt we will get some more quality trades done at the expense of Reid and co.

He has seen a habit on picking on weakest negotiators? He has picked mostly rejects from GWS that he picked originally when he was there. GWS would be ahead on the trades they’ve done with SOS

 

[chunkylover53]

He has seen a habit on picking on weakest negotiators? He has picked mostly rejects from GWS that he picked originally when he was there. GWS would be ahead on the trades they’ve done with SOS

Nah. I can't be bothered trawling through who GWS took with the second rounders we gave up to get everyone, but we are doing well.

we've gotten Plowman, Marchbank and Setterfield as best 22 players for the next decade and Phillips who has been very handy depth (tore your mob a new one this year).

The gravitation toward GWS was their forced list culling and exceeding salary cap - they had to cull players and did so cheap. So yeah I guess they were in a position to be weak negotiators.

 

[My name geoff]

He has seen a habit on picking on weakest negotiators? He has picked mostly rejects from GWS that he picked originally when he was there. GWS would be ahead on the trades they’ve done with SOS

I’m interested to see how GWS are ahead on their trades with SOS..

I always enjoy looking at the group of players as they would line up in a team to fully soak up how badly SOS takes advantage of weak negotiators..

Young Reid (assuming we use pick 8 on Papley):

...... Plowman ......
...... ............ .......
O’Brien Stocker Papley
........ DeKoning......
........ McGovern......

Philips Kennedy ......


Still a few more holes SOS will plug in that team this offseason which I’m sure Young Reid will be helpless to stop. I hear B.Crouch and Talia are keen to jump on the Teague train so will see how that plays out.

 

[Drewie11]

I’m interested to see how GWS are ahead on their trades with SOS..

I always enjoy looking at the group of players as they would line up in a team to fully soak up how badly SOS takes advantage of weak negotiators..

Young Reid (assuming we use pick 8 on Papley):

...... Plowman ......
...... ............ .......
O’Brien Stocker Papley
........ DeKoning......
........ McGovern......

Philips Kennedy ......


Still a few more holes SOS will plug in that team this offseason which I’m sure Young Reid will be helpless to stop. I hear B.Crouch and Talia are keen to jump on the Teague train so will see how that plays out.

Where is Pickett, Jaksch, Whiley, Palmer, Lamb and Sumner in that team line up?

 

[My name geoff]

Where is Pickett, Jaksch, Whiley, Palmer, Lamb and Sumner in that team line up?

You mean the salary dumps? Do the crows even know what a salary dump is? I hear all you do with your salary cap is sign finished players on five year deals

And by the way, jaksch and Whiley was SOS shafting Carlton when he was at GWS

 

[Jeremias]

Where is Pickett, Jaksch, Whiley, Palmer, Lamb and Sumner in that team line up?

Two of these were recruited to Carlton when SOS was still working at the Giants.

Always love when posters make it easy to identify they don't know what they're talking about.

 

[Drewie11]

Two of these were recruited to Carlton when SOS was still working at the Giants.

Always love when posters make it easy to identify they don't know what they're talking about.

So he only bought the 500g packet of potato chips and not the 680g party pack

 

[My name geoff]

So he only bought the 500g packet of potato chips and not the 680g party pack

You don’t get the purpose of those trades.

To give you a better understanding of the difference between SOS and young Reid. Here is the list of players SOS has brought into the club in the past 3 off seasons that have played AFL. I’d be interested to see Young Reid’s list. Keep in mind that we beat your team comfortably this year

Curnow, Mckay, Silvagni, Petrevski-Seton, Weitering, Marchbank, Setterfield, McGovern, TDK, Philips, Plowman, Fisher, Cuningham, Walsh, Stocker, Kennedy, Macreadie, Lang, O’brien, Deluca, Gibbons, Dow, Garlett, Goddard, Williamson, Kerr, Newman, Polson, Shumacher

The fact that you guys even think that there is some competition between the Crows and Carlton shows how little you understand about football. All I am here to do is hopefully help crows fans become a little less deluded.

 

[Brasher]

You don’t get the purpose of those trades.

To give you a better understanding of the difference between SOS and young Reid. Here is the list of players SOS has brought into the club in the past 3 off seasons that have played AFL. I’d be interested to see Young Reid’s list. Keep in mind that we beat your team comfortably this year

Curnow, Mckay, Silvagni, Petrevski-Seton, Weitering, Marchbank, Setterfield, McGovern, TDK, Philips, Plowman, Fisher, Cuningham, Walsh, Stocker, Kennedy, Macreadie, Lang, O’brien, Deluca, Gibbons, Dow, Garlett, Goddard, Williamson, Kerr, Newman, Polson, Shumacher

The fact that you guys even think that there is some competition between the Crows and Carlton shows how little you understand about football. All I am here to do is hopefully help crows fans become a little less deluded.

Before you help us poor Crows fans out, especially when a lot of us don't need to be convinced regarding Reid anyway, you might want to learn to count first. Weitering, McKay and Curnow were drafted in 2015, by my count that's 4 off seasons ago, but I guess it suits your argument better yeah?

Actually since you take such pride in presenting the facts and helping us lesser beings out maybe you could list the relative draft position of both clubs over the corresponding period to provide a more balanced perspective.

 

[My name geoff]

Before you help us poor Crows fans out, especially when a lot of us don't need to be convinced regarding Reid anyway, you might want to learn to count first. Weitering, McKay and Curnow were drafted in 2015, by my count that's 4 off seasons ago, but I guess it suits your argument better yeah?

Actually since you take such pride in presenting the facts and helping us lesser beings out maybe you could list the relative draft position of both clubs over the corresponding period to provide a more balanced perspective.

Ohh yep, sorry you got us! Last 4 offseasons!! Pack up shop SOS and co, this list of players you have assembled is now rendered useless!

Let’s just put draft positions aside and look at the player trades in Silvagnis rebuild, to show how meaningless your straw clutching argument is. Have a look at this and cry into your cornflakes. Bolded players are no longer in AFL

Out:
Bryce Gibbs, Lachie Henderson, Troy Menzel, Tom Bell, Yarran, Tuohy

In:
Matt Kennedy, Lachie O’Brien, DeKoning, Lachie Plowman, Philips, Harry Mckay, Charlie Curnow, Cuningham, Marchbank, Macreadie, Williamson

 

[Rich01]

Ohh yep, sorry you got us! Last 4 offseasons!! Pack up shop SOS and co, this list of players you have assembled is now rendered useless!

Let’s just put draft positions aside and look at the player trades Silvagnis rebuild, to show how meaningless your straw clutch argument is. Have a look at this and cry into your cornflakes. Bolded players are no longer in AFL

Out:
Bryce Gibbs, Lachie Henderson, Troy Menzel, Tom Bell, Yarran, Tuohy

In:
Matt Kennedy, Lachie O’Brien, DeKoning, Lachie Plowman, Philips, Harry Mckay, Charlie Curnow, Cuningham, Marchbank, Macreadie, Williamson

You missed a fair few ins for the blues in that list as well, but they would all be bolded and not suit your argument.
And the picks swapped for some of these players - Matt Kennedy for Sam Taylor for example. And the Josh Dunkley pick.

 

[My name geoff]

You missed a fair few ins for the blues in that list as well, but they would all be bolded and not suit your argument.

The argument is ‘look at Carlton’s current list of players, look how we got them’ I have no idea why anyone in their right mind would mention delisted players along the way

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

You missed a fair few ins for the blues in that list as well, but they would all be bolded and not suit your argument.

He missed a few outs too. First and second rounders from previous list managers delisted with little to no value.

Not a single national draft selection since 2015 (SOS’ watch) delisted either. Doing well.

 

[Rich01]

He missed a few outs too. First and second rounders from previous list managers delisted with little to no value.

Not a single national draft selection since 2015 (SOS’ watch) delisted either. Doing well.

What other outs did he trade out that he missed?

 

[Rich01]

The argument is ‘look at Carlton’s current list of players, look how we got them’ I have no idea why anyone in their right mind would mention delisted players along the way

Yeah you got Matt Kennedy for the Sam Taylor pick. Charlie Curnow with the Josh Dunkley pick and Tom Bell pick. Ponied up the Ed Richards pick as part of the Gibbs trade. Gryan Miers as part of the Marchbank trade.

It’s no big deal, but SOS gave up a few good ones that you missed and that’s ‘how you got them’ as you say.

 

[Brasher]

Ohh yep, sorry you got us! Last 4 offseasons!! Pack up shop SOS and co, this list of players you have assembled is now rendered useless!

Let’s just put draft positions aside and look at the player trades in Silvagnis rebuild, to show how meaningless your straw clutching argument is. Have a look at this and cry into your cornflakes. Bolded players are no longer in AFL

Out:
Bryce Gibbs, Lachie Henderson, Troy Menzel, Tom Bell, Yarran, Tuohy

In:
Matt Kennedy, Lachie O’Brien, DeKoning, Lachie Plowman, Philips, Harry Mckay, Charlie Curnow, Cuningham, Marchbank, Macreadie, Williamson

I don't like cornflakes. never have, so your probably right on the crying bit.

Let's just put draft position aside?? it's the whole point of the thread!

But it doesn't suit your ridiculous narrative I guess!

Only you could take credit for moving on players your club drafted so poorly for in the first place.... talk about straw clutching,

Anyway only responded to your post in the first place because of how fantastically condescending some of your posts were and continue to be... lifes to short to bother wasting time on those quick to throw barbs but then divert their own short comings on others.

Seeya

 

[Kreuuuzeurns]

What other outs did he trade out that he missed?

I was referencing the first and second rounders from the previous regime that should currently be playing AFL but aren’t due to incompetent drafting/trading. Giles, Viojo-Rainbow, Jaksch, Boekhurst, Watson, Everitt off the top of my head. McCarthy, Lucas, Bootsma, Temay in the years before him.

A massive hole of players that should be in their prime now through years of valuable picks wasted. But you’ve been told this a million times before.