Review Carlton - How did they get to here?

zeggie

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Feb 9, 2012
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I wouldn't call 15 + Martin for 9 "stupid overs". I'd call that a fair deal, it values him somewhere around pick 21 which sounds about right. If Carlton aren't willing to play ball for a reasonable price, that isn't Gold Coast's fault.
No offence but your sole reference is "that" tweet I assume?

The GCS LM said themselves the proposed offer was 9 + 2020 second for Martin + 15.

If you're going to criticize, at least criticize the correct proposed offer.
 

Johnny Bananas

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No offence but your sole reference is "that" tweet I assume?

The GCS LM said themselves the proposed offer was 9 + 2020 second for Martin + 15.

If you're going to criticize, at least criticize the correct proposed offer.
No, my reference was trade radio asking said GC LM if that was the deal he proposed, him responding affirmatively and also saying that Carlton refused to go above a future 2nd and future 3rd.

Anyway, even that deal you posted isn't "stupid overs". It's the equivalent of a late first, which is at most slight overs for a player of Martin's talent and age.
 

Buzzasto DaSilva

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Good luck getting anyone to sign a long term deal from now on.

A win for GC would’ve been a top 25 pick and another pick around 45 next year. But you got high on the concessions.
I predict the opposite. This is a massive turning point for the Suns. People said the same thing to us when we denied Cam McCarthy a trade to Freo, yet we have signed up every single player we wanted to keep (Setterfield aside).

Well done to the Suns and shame on Silvagni for not coming up with the goods. Suns are more than amicable to trade with. Yet throughout the last few years- Gibbs, Papley and Martin have all failed to have deals done in the trade period, and the common denominator is Stephen Silvagni.

Not good enough. Carlton fans should be expecting more.
 

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zeggie

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No, my reference was trade radio asking said GC LM if that was the deal he proposed, him responding affirmatively and also saying that Carlton refused to go above a future 2nd and future 3rd.

Anyway, even that deal you posted isn't "stupid overs". It's the equivalent of a late first, which is at most slight overs for a player of Martin's talent and age.
Point still stands. If you're going to criticize, make sure you actually know what you're criticizing. You're criticizing a trade that was never proposed.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

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I predict the opposite. This is a massive turning point for the Suns. People said the same thing to us when we denied Cam McCarthy a trade to Freo, yet we have signed up every single player we wanted to keep (Setterfield aside).

Well done to the Suns and shame on Silvagni for not coming up with the goods. Suns are more than amicable to trade with. Yet throughout the last few years- Gibbs, Papley and Martin have all failed to have deals done in the trade period, and the common denominator is Stephen Silvagni.

Not good enough. Carlton fans should be expecting more.
Players still sign at GWS because you are a good side with a good culture. McCarthy was also a contracted player, Martin had done his time and this was the second year in a row he’d asked for a trade.

If a future second and third for an uncontracted 24 year old playing 2s is not “the goods”, then I’m not sure what is. Consider a younger similarly talented Ah Chee went for less. As I said earlier they got high on the concessions.
 
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Orange Agent

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Launch a restraint of trade challenge, AFLPA would be getting involved as well. Not something the AFL would like to deal with after handing all of those concessions to GC.
I don't know why people continually post this rubbish on here. Just look up the definition of restraint of trade, has zero to do with AFL footballers.
 

Happy Idiot

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No offence but your sole reference is "that" tweet I assume?

The GCS LM said themselves the proposed offer was 9 + 2020 second for Martin + 15.

If you're going to criticize, at least criticize the correct proposed offer.
Exactly the mindset that resulted in a non-trade. You're happy to pot the proposed Martin+15 with 9+2020 second coming back, and are rock solid with the future 2nd and future 3rd that Carlton proposed. Like a stick in the mud.

The real trade would have appeared if SOS suddenly became nimble enough to actually counter — say, drop off that pesky second. If you think that is waaaaaay overs, especially in the face of your other major target falling over, then good luck to you and SOS. You might just need it.
 

zeggie

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Exactly the mindset that resulted in a non-trade. You're happy to pot the proposed Martin+15 with 9+2020 second coming back, and are rock solid with the future 2nd and future 3rd that Carlton proposed. Like a stick in the mud.

The real trade would have appeared if SOS suddenly became nimble enough to actually counter — say, drop off that pesky second. If you think that is waaaaaay overs, especially in the face of your other major target falling over, then good luck to you and SOS. You might just need it.
The only reason GCS wouldn't accept a 2nd and 3rd is your massive AFL handout.

Your own posters said as such. Everyone knows this.

Any other year, or without your unprecedented handout, this trade happens.
 

Happy Idiot

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The only reason GCS wouldn't accept a 2nd and 3rd is your massive AFL handout.

Your own posters said as such. Everyone knows this.

Any other year, or without your unprecedented handout, this trade happens.
So what? The handout is the reality that our club and SOS both knew. Again if he was nimble enough, he'd have worked within that scenario.
 

zeggie

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I don't know why people continually post this rubbish on here. Just look up the definition of restraint of trade, has zero to do with AFL footballers.
Yeah that's what the English Premier League said. Nek minnit - court finds in favour of the player and changes everything.

That's also what MLB said. Massive player strike. Players win.

Also what the NRL said. Their draft abolished. Players win.

AFL is well behind the times. We only just got free agency for example. AFL won't be far away from draft and trade reforms. The players ARE this competition. Without them we are left with overpaid suits earning their bonuses altering rules like score reviews for the lols.
 
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dlb99

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I predict the opposite. This is a massive turning point for the Suns. People said the same thing to us when we denied Cam McCarthy a trade to Freo, yet we have signed up every single player we wanted to keep (Setterfield aside).

Well done to the Suns and shame on Silvagni for not coming up with the goods. Suns are more than amicable to trade with. Yet throughout the last few years- Gibbs, Papley and Martin have all failed to have deals done in the trade period, and the common denominator is Stephen Silvagni.

Not good enough. Carlton fans should be expecting more.
Gibbs and Papley contracted. Deal failed just like Daniher and Kelly (last year). Clubs now are playing tough, which is fine. Nothing specific to SOS since Geelong and Dons have done the same thing.

We were never involving pick 9 for Martin. He is not worth it.
Deal fails, so be it.
Martin is uncontracted.
Suns either need to pay up big for 1 year, or let him walk for nothing. He’s a free agent next year anyway.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

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So what? The handout is the reality that our club and SOS both knew. Again if he was nimble enough, he'd have worked within that scenario.
It was widely reported that Martin had chose us early in September, we were loosely chasing him last year and ramped it up throughout 2019.

The ridiculous handout package did not drop until September 30th. Before then it was widely accepted you’d ‘only’ get pick 1, not 4 first round picks.

Without those concessions this trade gets done for fair value. List managers shouldn’t have to consider the prospect of 4 first round gimmies when courting a player. It is what it is I guess.
 

Happy Idiot

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It was widely reported that Martin had chose us early in September, we were loosely chasing him last year and ramped it up throughout 2019.

The ridiculous handout package did not drop until September 30th. Before then it was widely accepted you’d ‘only’ get pick 1, not 4 first round picks.

Without those concessions this trade gets done for fair value. List managers shouldn’t have to consider the prospect of 4 first round gimmies when courting a player. It is what it is I guess.
All well and good, except that is the reality of the trade period SOS entered. And that is the set of variables he didn't operate well with.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

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All well and good, except that is the reality of the trade period SOS entered. And that is the set of variables he didn't operate well with.
It was an unprecedented reality no one could’ve guessed. Doubt we (or the Dogs/Dons/whoever) go near as hard for him if we’d known the extent of the handouts. 2 priority picks would’ve been a shock, 4 is unheard of.

Glad we didn’t cave in and take him for overs but this thread shows we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
 

Happy Idiot

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It was an unprecedented reality no one could’ve guessed. Doubt we (or the Dogs/Dons/whoever) go near as hard for him if we’d known the extent of the handouts. 2 priority picks would’ve been a shock, 4 is unheard of.

Glad we didn’t cave in and take him for overs but this thread shows we are damned if we do and damned if we don’t.
No, it was absolutely known pre-trade period. If there is one role, at one time of the year that needs flexibility to be part of their skill-set, it's the list manager during the trade period. SOS did not deliver for you — and the value the Suns missed out on was very, very minimal.

Even on the Cartlon boards there seems to be split concern about SOS not having a plan B.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

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No, it was absolutely known pre-trade period. If there is one role, at one time of the year that needs flexibility to be part of their skill-set, it's the list manager during the trade period. SOS did not deliver for you — and the value the Suns missed out on was very, very minimal.

Even on the Cartlon boards there seems to be split concern about SOS not having a plan B.
It was only seen as minimal value due to the ridiculous concessions that again, no one could’ve guessed months out. Talks with other clubs and managers don’t just begin on the first Monday of trade period. When you chase an uncontracted player during the year that is worth a second round pick, you expect to pay a second round pick. No club in their right mind would offer up a first for Martin this season, and in any other circumstance you accept the offer we put down for Martin.

Maybe our plan B was taking a player we really like at 9, or trading up/down/to 2020 on draft night, instead of paying overs for a player you are only holding out of spite.
 

Happy Idiot

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It was only seen as minimal value due to the ridiculous concessions that again, no one could’ve guessed months out. Talks with other clubs and managers don’t just begin on the first Monday of trade period. When you chase an uncontracted player during the year that is worth a second round pick, you expect to pay a second round pick. No club in their right mind would offer up a first for Martin this season, and in any other circumstance you accept the offer we put down for Martin.

Maybe our plan B was taking a player we really like at 9, or trading up/down/to 2020 on draft night, instead of paying overs for a player you are only holding out of spite.
Again, I'll say that SOS didn't appear to have any flexibility. If you think a list manager is locked into their plans, with no wiggle room, months out from trade period then we need to agree to disagree. In this scenario you actually had advanced warning of our concessions and couldn't get it done — at the very least didn't inform Jack that you couldn't get it done.

Nowhere is it suggested the late offers were about giving up a first. That's disingenuous. We were wanting you to slide in the first and that's a deal I believe many clubs would have done.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

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Again, I'll say that SOS didn't appear to have any flexibility. If you think a list manager is locked into their plans, with no wiggle room, months out from trade period then we need to agree to disagree. In this scenario you actually had advanced warning of our concessions and couldn't get it done — at the very least didn't inform Jack that you couldn't get it done.

Nowhere is it suggested the late offers were about giving up a first. That's disingenuous. We were wanting you to slide in the first and that's a deal I believe many clubs would have done.
Anymore flexibility and we begin to overpay. A future 2nd and 3rd is a very fair deal. The concessions didn’t seem to stop the Ah Chee trade from going through smoothly.

I understand why you wanted us to overpay. Doesn’t mean we should roll over and do it. We had planned all year to offer up reasonable value for an uncontracted player as most clubs do. Ultimately Melbourne or Carlton will effectively recruit him for free and you made your stand. Credit to GC I guess.
 

Happy Idiot

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What are you talking about? SOS declared what plan B is, on camera, 5 mins after the trade period ended.

What did SOS do to anger you so much?
Anger? You again with the mind-reading. I'm just really sure he's not worth an avatar!

As for plan B, or the lack thereof, it's simply what I've been able to glean from the Carlton boards. Quite the split opinion. Interestingly the Sunnies seem very unified. Huh, who woulda thought?
 

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