Carlton Pitches For Multimillion Dollar Stadium Upgrade

[sosos]

It is Carlton FC's corporate responsibility to maintain their heritage listed asset. I applaud them for finally getting around to doing it.

If they can source government money to help pay for it then that is just good business.

Though I acknowledge all the
social justice concerns, I just don't think they apply here given the heritage, AFLW etc.

 

[gandaal]

I didn't say it was an imaginary situation. You've missed my point again.

You say that there's money budgeted. I point out one example where it isn't. You claim that I've missed your point.

Back on topic. Funding for stadiums like this one, or punt road (Punt road??? WTF?) are a waste of public money. Whether you're a conservative who want fiscal responsibility, or a liberal who wants extra support for those who need it, this project is a dud.

 

[teagueyubeauty]

It's not a dud, it's for a competition in its infancy that one day may grow big enough to be able to be played in bigger stadiums.
There is no small to medium stadia available in this town that fits the business model AFLW have built.
It makes perfect economic sense to upgrade a current stadium that suits the current need rather than build one from the ground up.

 

[ShanDog]

You say that there's money budgeted. I point out one example where it isn't. You claim that I've missed your point.

Back on topic. Funding for stadiums like this one, or punt road (Punt road??? WTF?) are a waste of public money. Whether you're a conservative who want fiscal responsibility, or a liberal who wants extra support for those who need it, this project is a dud.

WTF? Do yiu think "There is money budgeted to education, health etc" means that every single aspect of these areas has sufficient and appropriate funding? You have so totally missed the point I was making waaaay back at the start that you've misunderstood everything since.

 

[drunkill]

I sense the Developer's disdain for heritage.

Gardiner Stand IS heritage listed and I seriously doubt they would allow you to just move it.

http://vhd.heritagecouncil.vic.gov.au/places/65541

CFC have been negligent in maintaining this asset over the years and I am glad they are finally like looking at fixing the dilapidated state but please do not stomp on heritage and spread misinformation in your quest build a new facility.

"Level of Significance: File Only."

Not listed, just known to them and put on their list of known buildings. If you look at the ~2007 planning report for the administration facility it mentions the Gardiner stand has no heritage category assignment.

Heritage
13. Princes Park is located in a Heritage Overlay, in a level 1 streetscape and the stadium itself has a C grading in the Council’s Heritage Inventory. Individual stands within the ground have not been given a specific grading however advice from Council’s Heritage Advisor indicates that the Gardiner Stand contributes to the grounds heritage significance and has both architectural and historic significance. The Heatley Stand also contributes to the early 20th century development of the ground but is considered of lesser significance. The Harris Stand does not have any heritage significance.
​

It contributes to the ground and heritage significance, much like the Heatley stand did, which is not gone; which is why it should not be demolished but an argument for relocation could be made, especially if it was the club donating the stand to the melbourne city council and the public for use elsewhere in Princes Park.


I know no ~$100m redevelopment will happen (like Kardinia stadium over the past decade) but the article mentions it is the AFL looking at upgrading either PP or Punt Road (or both?) who would then seek local, state and federal government support in its endevour.

The state government is looking at funding a docklands stadium upgrade but it sounds like some of that money could be split off for one of these two projects in the initial stages.

While Stage 2 of my idea would be great to begin with I imagine it would be the most costly given the job of demolishing the existing grandstand and re-locating all the tenants within it.

But hey, again, my plan is a wishlist, no serious chance of it happening, could work as a masterplan to be worked on over a quarter of a century though.

Edit: By the way, not a developer or involved in the construction industry at all, I do like heritage buildings and preserving them too, just interested in planning is all.

 

[sosos]

Why not just restore the Gardiner and modify your design?

 

[drunkill]

Could do that, but a third of it is unusable because the training hall cuts off the view of the goals. My plan would be to relocate that training to the rear of a new stand in that location, underneath a grandstand, directly north of the swimmingpool with an entrance connecting the two.
Crappy paintover:

This also allows for the re-introduction of seating along the boundary in that location in the pocket.

And convert the rest of the training space facing the oval into a function room or indoor dining/bar & toilet access.

Edit: No view of the goals from a third of the Gardiner stand, note that the real training shed is closer to the ground than this early planning diagram, closer to the black dotted line, this plan had a different walkway than what exists now in real life:

 

[Jimmae]

The current training facility and the Gardiner really leave the club hamstrung with seating capacity arrangements, but Ikon Park still has a current capacity of 20k.

Getting it to 30k while modernising the wing stands might be workable if it eats up the empty space either side of the training facility, but I'd suggest anything upwards of that involves the removal of the Gardiner and the modification of the training facility. Maybe 35k.

 

[sosos]

Well ditch it and go Punt Road. You cannot simply remove the Gardiner.

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

It's not a dud, it's for a competition in its infancy that one day may grow big enough to be able to be played in bigger stadiums.
There is no small to medium stadia available in this town that fits the business model AFLW have built.
It makes perfect economic sense to upgrade a current stadium that suits the current need rather than build one from the ground up.

The idea that AFLW needs any purpose built stadium at this point is nuts, regardless of whether its an upgrade or new one. Make the AFL pay for it if they want it but public money should go nowhere near it for all the reasons Gaandal highlighted.

Punt and Whitten are perfect for it anyway. Part of the attraction is the atmosphere - summer, sitting on the grass, high density crowd

 

[drunkill]

Punt road has the remaining few cricket games when the AFLW would be starting doesn't it? Could be offset perhaps when Junction Oval is brought back online for cricket use.

Also the point is 8-10k (Punt or Whitten) is not enough already. As mentioned in the article, the AFL is planning on paying for all of this, they may seek additional government funding for whichever of these projects goes ahead, which they would no doubt get because it boosts women's and community sport.

The government were looking at funding Docklands stadium (a different issue)

 

[Canyouhearthedrums]

Whitten oval is 13-14K. Lets see the crowds remain at that level for a couple of years before we start talking about stadiums. Not to mention that the crow figures outside round 1 and the GF we're all in the 7k - 8k range

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Whether you like it or not public money has and always will be used to put into facilities that provide an opportunity for Victorians to continue to enjoy their favourite pastimes.

Whilst I agree we can do more for social services, even though we have one of the best systems in the world, money will be spread across all areas of the social spectrum.

Football binds the community far more than anything else, whether you are rich/poor or somewhere in between.

In case you didn't notice, many games had to be moved to PP in the AFLW last season. If you want the growth in the competition and the ensuing windfall of funds and engagement out of that you need to spend money to make money.

 

[Jimmae]

Well ditch it and go Punt Road. You cannot simply remove the Gardiner.

If they want it preserved and the site needs the space to upgrade, it can be moved. Of all that is there, it can definitely be moved. They can take it apart and rebuild it down the road if that's the cheaper option.

Whitten oval is 13-14K. Lets see the crowds remain at that level for a couple of years before we start talking about stadiums.

All signs point to the AFLW being a fully fledged format sometime in the 2020-2022 range, probably on the nearer side of that.

If the seasons overlap (and for OH&S, I'm sure they will), then this is something that needs to get underway sooner rather than later.

 

[Doro]

I don't think we need any grandiose expansion plans at this stage, just an upgrade of existing facilities. 20 - 25k and locality is perfect for AFLW and perhaps opens the door for 1 or 2 men's low drawing men's games a year, when a fully ticketed game is possible.

 

[sosos]

From memory the locals objected to lights as well.

If they want it preserved and the site needs the space to upgrade, it can be moved. Of all that is there, it can definitely be moved. They can take it apart and rebuild it down the road if that's the cheaper option.

You need to read the overlay.

"the Gardiner Stand contributes to the grounds heritage significance and has both architectural and historic significance"


Moving it would completely undermine the site as a whole.

 

[ShanDog]

Whether you like it or not public money has and always will be used to put into facilities that provide an opportunity for Victorians to continue to enjoy their favourite pastimes.

Whilst I agree we can do more for social services, even though we have one of the best systems in the world, money will be spread across all areas of the social spectrum.

Football binds the community far more than anything else, whether you are rich/poor or somewhere in between.

In case you didn't notice, many games had to be moved to PP in the AFLW last season. If you want the growth in the competition and the ensuing windfall of funds and engagement out of that you need to spend money to make money.

Exactly - and we haven't even touched on the numerous effects large infrastructure spending has on this involved in construction, design, ongoing employment, local economies....

 

[Silent Alarm]

Anyone who wants to see that old grandstand moved or torn down is an idiot - it needs to be restored. We are losing too many classic grandstands and they're becoming a total rarity in professional sports here. You'd embrace it. It would add to the idea of it being a unique, boutique experience.

I reckon you'd move the training facilities backward and put up a high, big stand behind the goals and bring the capacity to around 25,000 that way. Then restore the Gardiner. Repair the rest of the stadium and get it up to the expectation of the football fan of 2017. Then in a few years try upgrading the dingy old stand at the northern end but to be honest if everything else looked clean and new even that could have some historical push and pull. You don't want to make Optus Oval devoid of what makes it a nice alternative and rip out everything it represents (classic suburban football). I like the idea of having food trucks out the back of the northern parklands
- goes well with the carnival summer feel of the women's stuff and would add an edge to any real AFL being played there.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Doro]

Anyone who wants to see that old grandstand moved or torn down is an idiot - it needs to be restored. We are losing too many classic grandstands and they're becoming a total rarity in professional sports here. You'd embrace it. It would add to the idea of it being a unique, boutique experience.

I reckon you'd move the training facilities backward and put up a high, big stand behind the goals and bring the capacity to around 25,000 that way. Then restore the Gardiner. Repair the rest of the stadium and get it up to the expectation of the football fan of 2017. Then in a few years try upgrading the dingy old stand at the northern end but to be honest if everything else looked clean and new even that could have some historical push and pull. You don't want to make Optus Oval devoid of what makes it a nice alternative and rip out everything it represents (classic suburban football). I like the idea of having food trucks out the back of the northern parklands
- goes well with the carnival summer feel of the women's stuff and would add an edge to any real AFL being played there.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

The training facilities were a $20 mil state of the art investment less than 10 years ago, so moving them is not really a viable option. The placement was probably a bit short sighted, it's done though. I agree with your thoughts about keeping a heritage feel to the ground.

 

[ITCHY EYEBALLS]

You say that there's money budgeted. I point out one example where it isn't. You claim that I've missed your point.

Back on topic. Funding for stadiums like this one, or punt road (Punt road??? WTF?) are a waste of public money. Whether you're a conservative who want fiscal responsibility, or a liberal who wants extra support for those who need it, this project is a dud.

So were the Desal Plant and Nth/Sth Pipeline.
Don't pretend that the Left haven't squandered Billions of OUR money, but I digress.
We are talking about the Carlton Football Club, and anything that is for the betterment of the club has my support.

 

[ctacp]

Do we really need another big sports stadium in Melbourne? I know as a Carlton supporter I'm meant to be all for Princes Park being redeveloped, but if politicians have millions to flush down the toilet surely there are more important things we could spend that money on.

How about social support for struggling families? Some of the stories I've heard or seen personally would give you nightmares at night. Thousands of families need extra support that they just aren't getting

Better funded public schools to support our kids and bridge the poverty gap? Or just support for the most helpless of our children? Its sad that there's kids in Grade 3 or higher all over the state who can't read or write but don't qualify for funded support because they're "too smart".

Increase support for the homeless? Why the **** do I walk down a street in a capital city in Australia and see people sleeping outside in doorways at night?

Indigenous support? How is it still the case that in Australia being indigenous results in your life expectancy dropping 20 years? Our continuing national disgrace.

So instead the government wants to spend millions of our money supporting an industry where the average wage of its employees recently jumped to half a mill a year? Is that seriously what we're doing? Absolutely bull****

Well 1 politician flushed over a billion dollars away for nothing, so whats a few million?

 

[Jimmae]

From memory the locals objected to lights as well.


You need to read the overlay.

"the Gardiner Stand contributes to the grounds heritage significance and has both architectural and historic significance"


Moving it would completely undermine the site as a whole.

Eventually, something has to give in the name of progress. Yes I understand that it's the second oldest VFL stand left, but I'm not advocating for the structure to be bulldozed or completely reworked into something else.

It's a 1400-person stand that we can put on adjacent oval and make into cultural site that can extend or modify the existing club walking tours, as well as offering seating for local footy.

Its style can be honoured in future designs.

 

[CrazyJoeFevola]

Bring back the Social Club!!!

 

[Aphrodite]

Bring back the Social Club!!!

I miss the good old days!

 

[sosos]

Eventually, something has to give in the name of progress. Yes I understand that it's the second oldest VFL stand left, but I'm not advocating for the structure to be bulldozed or completely reworked into something else.

It's a 1400-person stand that we can put on adjacent oval and make into cultural site that can extend or modify the existing club walking tours, as well as offering seating for local footy.

Its style can be honoured in future designs.

One step up from the fate of the Cork Hotel but not by much.

Lip service to heritage will be a public relations disaster. The new socially aware Carlton won't go anywhere near a proposal like that.