List Mgmt. Carlton's 2018 Draft Thread II

[HARKER]

What do you mean? When there was nobody else, guys like O'Shea and Shaw played. That's what I'm referring to. At one point last season we had 3-4 players in the NBs, injuries were that bad.

3-4 players is a bit of a stretch, but the numbers did hit at as low as 8-9 for a game or two.

I mentioned this several months ago, but the whole 'protecting the kids stuff' didn't come about, when Schumacher was taking on the midfield duties whilst Shaw and Mullett were playing wide trying to get cheap possessions. Who exactly was protecting who here?

That drafting didn't work as if it had, you'd think at least one of them along with O'Shea would have remained on the list.
It's OK to acknowledge it being a fail and not just an E fail. This was a F fail.

Anyway, at least these two guys have possible roles assigned and if they don't.....it will be an F again.
Let's see how it pans out. It's not as overtly bad as last year, but it's a little dodgy from this distance.

 

[Mondyboy]

Agree with most but not Amos, the job he did in2017 with our defence was fantastic the mistake was moving him to midfield this year, which we have now rectified by moving him back to where he belongs in defence where he made his name working with the great Geelong defences. With Docherty back as general and Amos back as line coach our defence in 2019 will be back to its best and that includes team defence as well. What we desperately need is a midfield coach which is why missing out on Mitchell was a big loss. Need to find that in a hurry, would be worth getting Diesel back even part time to help out.

Fair enough.


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[Arr0w]

Agree with most but not Amos, the job he did in2017 with our defence was fantastic the mistake was moving him to midfield this year, which we have now rectified by moving him back to where he belongs in defence where he made his name working with the great Geelong defences. With Docherty back as general and Amos back as line coach our defence in 2019 will be back to its best and that includes team defence as well. What we desperately need is a midfield coach which is why missing out on Mitchell was a big loss. Need to find that in a hurry, would be worth getting Diesel back even part time to help out.

Difficult for any line coach last year, given the injuries we had. Many people were bagging Amos, unfairly.

Tigers rated poorly for stoppages, yet still made top 4.

The most important aspect, of sustained success is continuity

 

[HARKER]

Have to agree with Shandog man... SOS himself said they were there to play reserves..without the horror run of injury thats what would have happened. I think list management is more than just acquiring the top shelf talent. There will always be a spread and the idea is incremental improvement in the depth. Or to put it another way ensuring our worst players now are better than our worst players before.

You're welcome to agree to whatever feels/seems right for you.

'SOS said they were there to play reserves'. I know he did and how poor is that.
What sort of incentive are you giving players that come into your club with such an admission.

I can't see how anyone can justify the senior trio we brought in last year.
I sure didn't when they were selected and I saw with my own eyes in the NB's why it was such poor recruitment.

We can make stuff up as much as we want but the proof is in the pudding........They're all gone and added nothing whilst with us.

 

[murphster]

3-4 players is a bit of a stretch, but the numbers did hit at as low as 8-9 for a game or two.

I mentioned this several months ago, but the whole 'protecting the kids stuff' didn't come about, when Schumacher was taking on the midfield duties whilst Shaw and Mullett were playing wide trying to get cheap possessions. Who exactly was protecting who here?

That drafting didn't work as if it had, you'd think at least one of them along with O'Shea would have remained on the list.
It's OK to acknowledge it being a fail and not just an E fail. This was a F fail.

Anyway, at least these two guys have possible roles assigned and if they don't.....it will be an F again.
Let's see how it pans out. It's not as overtly bad as last year, but it's a little dodgy from this distance.

I actually think Goddard is a great replacement for Rowe if we can get his body right, totally different proposition to O’shea and Mullet and even Bugg, he is a long term prospect and at 22 is the perfect age, unless we get injuries again he has time to build some form in the VFL and get himself right, SOS has had this change planned for a long time so I have faith that he knows what he is about with this one. Goddard is no one year top up he is an upgrade.

 

[murphster]

Difficult for any line coach last year, given the injuries we had. Many people were bagging Amos, unfairly.

Tigers rated poorly for stoppages, yet still made top 4.

The most important aspect, of sustained success is continuity

Exackery and the ArrOw hits a bullseye.

 

[HARKER]

Harks, I’m glad you brought up those three because you’ve actually proven my point for me!

Last year, Mullett played 13 AFL games, O’Shea 11 and even Matty Shaw managed 2. I would say that is an outstanding result, to get that many games out of players we got for nothing.

You may say that they were all crap, had no impact and are now delisted. That’s spot on, yet despite them obviously being battlers, they STILL got games ahead of the next best alternatives. In a side that we all acknowledge was incredibly young already. Does the alternative not concern you? If we didn’t have those three, who would’ve played in their place? Because I can guarantee, they were not playing ahead of any quality youngsters who were raring to go. We were stretched to our absolute limits.

And to the possible argument that we would’ve been better served with someone like Schumacher (who, by the way, was a skinny first year player from the bottom of the draft)... really? We were clearly willing to play the kids, in fact to an unprecedented extent. When a side is already that young & inexperienced, and certain players are still trying to find their feet at the 2nd level, you do them - and their young teammates - far more harm than good by throwing them to the wolves.

We have enough raw, developing youth on the main list that we need to nurture. That is our clear focus. More kids, who are even less developed, are not what they need. Even at VFL level, how are kids going to develop if the Bullants are getting flogged every week because they’re too young?

For what it’s worth, I actually think Bugg may play quite a few games as a pressure forward anyway, but if he or Goddard play even a handful of games - I’ll consider that a success. It probably means we were decimated by injury and had no other option but to call in our insurance policies, and like last year, we’ll be very glad we have them.

I didn't say they were crap, but did say that the recruitment of the trio was so.
Yes, we had a lot of injuries and a couple were afforded opportunity, but it wasn't for what they were serving up in the NB's
Let's have a look at some game preview threads begging for O'Shea and Mullett not to be selected......Thank **** Shaw wasn't in the frame too much as he was somewhat worse than those two.

In simple terms, I understand the reason for having wanted the senior players and here's what I put forward back then; Why three back-men when they were the types we needed least? We were rarely short of back-men last year even for all we lost. We didn't have any mids though.

Anyway, all the best to our two new rookies and maybe we net a better result than that achieved from the now-departed trio, this year.

 

[Blueyourmyboy!!]

1/4 of our list was drafted in the first round between 2015 & 2018

And if they all come on...holy shit we will destroy the comp.

 

[murphster]

I didn't say they were crap, but did say that the recruitment of the trio was so.
Yes, we had a lot of injuries and a couple were afforded opportunity, but it wasn't for what they were serving up in the NB's
Let's have a look at some game preview threads begging for O'Shea and Mullett not to be selected......Thank **** Shaw wasn't in the frame too much as he was somewhat worse than those two.

In simple terms, I understand the reason for having wanted the senior players and here's what I put forward back then; Why three back-men when they were the types we needed least? We were rarely short of back-men last year even for all we lost. We didn't have any mids though.

Anyway, all the best to our two new rookies and maybe we net a better result than that achieved from the now-departed trio, this year.

The way I see it is we had to bring in 3 mature back up players to pad out the list last year, this year we have brought in maybe 1 in Bugg but that comes down to perception. As I stated earlier Goddard is not a top up player IMO but a long term prospect which I think is proven out by the time SOS put into tracking him, and the fact he delisted Rowe to get him in. My point is we have reduced the need for top up players, which is good progress.

 

[Blue and Blue]

You're welcome to agree to whatever feels/seems right for you.

'SOS said they were there to play reserves'. I know he did and how poor is that.
What sort of incentive are you giving players that come into your club with such an admission.

I can't see how anyone can justify the senior trio we brought in last year.
I sure didn't when they were selected and I saw with my own eyes in the NB's why it was such poor recruitment.

We can make stuff up as much as we want but the proof is in the pudding........They're all gone and added nothing whilst with us.

I imagine its along the lines of.... theres a spot on good money compared to not being on a list at all but theres no guarantee of senior football. What do you say?.Well of course they say yes and get a short contract and a chance of more. And we fulfill the obligation that is not as easy as it seems because the thing is we have to have a full list. So theres not much to do besides that. There is no way that every single list ever didnt have a few make up the numbers in the reserves fellows. But thats a short term thing. It's list turnover as you know and now and then one will do alright. The talent pool is thinner than it used to be but the wages are much higher. We just can't have that perfect list and never ever could.

 

[Blueyourmyboy!!]

My partner. Who doesnt really follow footy but does like the blues. Is really excited about our trade and draft period. Actually most ive ever seen her invest in carlton. She keeps telling me she has this feeling about carlton. Loves charlie. And thinks with our ins we may push finals next year.... she inpresses me everyday

Put a ring on her finger.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

The most important aspect, of sustained success is continuity

Who'd athunk it

 

[Arr0w]

I didn't say they were crap, but did say that the recruitment of the trio was so.
Yes, we had a lot of injuries and a couple were afforded opportunity, but it wasn't for what they were serving up in the NB's
Let's have a look at some game preview threads begging for O'Shea and Mullett not to be selected......Thank **** Shaw wasn't in the frame too much as he was somewhat worse than those two.

In simple terms, I understand the reason for having wanted the senior players and here's what I put forward back then; Why three back-men when they were the types we needed least? We were rarely short of back-men last year even for all we lost. We didn't have any mids though.

Anyway, all the best to our two new rookies and maybe we net a better result than that achieved from the now-departed trio, this year.

Not sure it had any impact on our strategy, especially considering the cost

I wanted Banfield, rather than O'Shea or Shaw, but so be it.

All 3 are gone, time to move forward

 

[HARKER]

Not sure it had any impact on our strategy, especially considering the cost
I wanted Banfield, rather than O'Shea or Shaw, but so be it.
All 3 are gone, time to move forward

This is a draft thread and not the LM thread, so may not be appropriate for the discussion, but again the question would be; Have we learned from our mistakes?

Seems to me that there may not have been much to have been picked from after the ND and as much as others don't like him, Bugg doesn't bother me as at least there may be a role for him to play. Goddard? If we genuinely think know we can get on top of his issues, then it could be OK.

There wasn't a lot to get thrilled about by the time the RD came along, but you still have to set out to make every post a winner.

 

[Arr0w]

This is a draft thread and not the LM thread, so may not be appropriate for the discussion, but again the question would be; Have we learned from our mistakes?

Seems to me that there may not have been much to have been picked from after the ND and as much as others don't like him, Bugg doesn't bother me as at least there may be a role for him to play. Goddard? If we genuinely think know we can get on top of his issues, then it could be OK.

There wasn't a lot to get thrilled about by the time the RD came along, but you still have to set out to make every post a winner.

Everything is a balance.

We took 4 kids in the main draft, which I am happy about, Goddard and Bugg would be on 1 year deals.

Most sides, even clubs that have sustained success, have these types of fallback positions

 

[TerryWallet]

Agresta's cheeky smile.

Although SOS has been umming and arhing about it for days, Agresta has belled the cat here that Walsh was locked in a long time ago.

EP (and to be fair, most of the footy world) wins again.

I guess i'll stick with "Until he is wrong, he is usually right" for another 12 months.

 

[Mr_Plow]

Although SOS has been umming and arhing about it for days, Agresta has belled the cat here that Walsh was locked in a long time ago.

EP (and to be fair, most of the footy world) wins again.

I guess i'll stick with "Until he is wrong, he is usually right" for another 12 months.

We just need that customary debrief to end 2018 once and for all.

 

[The Bighouse]

We have 23 1st round picks on our list now following the drafts.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

Harks, I’m glad you brought up those three because you’ve actually proven my point for me!

Last year, Mullett played 13 AFL games, O’Shea 11 and even Matty Shaw managed 2. I would say that is an outstanding result, to get that many games out of players we got for nothing.

You may say that they were all crap, had no impact and are now delisted. That’s spot on, yet despite them obviously being battlers, they STILL got games ahead of the next best alternatives. In a side that we all acknowledge was incredibly young already. Does the alternative not concern you? If we didn’t have those three, who would’ve played in their place? Because I can guarantee, they were not playing ahead of any quality youngsters who were raring to go. We were stretched to our absolute limits.

And to the possible argument that we would’ve been better served with someone like Schumacher (who, by the way, was a skinny first year player from the bottom of the draft)... really? We were clearly willing to play the kids, in fact to an unprecedented extent. When a side is already that young & inexperienced, and certain players are still trying to find their feet at the 2nd level, you do them - and their young teammates - far more harm than good by throwing them to the wolves.

We have enough raw, developing youth on the main list that we need to nurture. That is our clear focus. More kids, who are even less developed, are not what they need. Even at VFL level, how are kids going to develop if the Bullants are getting flogged every week because they’re too young?

For what it’s worth, I actually think Bugg may play quite a few games as a pressure forward anyway, but if he or Goddard play even a handful of games - I’ll consider that a success. It probably means we were decimated by injury and had no other option but to call in our insurance policies, and like last year, we’ll be very glad we have them.

I'm not sure what this debate is about as it goes back to posts i haven't read.

But... Mullet, O'Shea and Shaw werent great picks and we can admit it even if SoS was involved. Everyone needs to be reviewed in what they are doing for Carlton football club. In the draft and trade side of things, Silver is killing it overall IMO...but on a couple of those recycle players, he didnt get it right.

Yes, he thought it best to get recycled 'AFL' players in preference, and yes, those players played games. But playing games doesnt say much, anyone would have played due to the injuries we had. And yes, they are better than a 17 year old kid but not better than some VFL talent if he could of spotted it.

The second tier footy does throw up a lot of good players and Carlton has really struggled to unearth much talent from it. Bombers got Hibberd, Freo got Barlow, Geelong got Kelly....many others but Carlton have lacked spotting a lot of second tier player success in recent times.

One reason why i think they should get better at spotting that talent is the mindset of the second tier player. they come in fresh, physically mature and with a huge chip on their shoulder to prove themselves. The recycled AFL fringe player can sometimes have a different mindset after failing. There are exceptions to what im saying for sure...but if you find a Kelly, Barlow, they are keepers. Bugg is just a stop gap.

 

[katmanblue]

Dumb question, but When’s the rookie draft ?

In about 12months. Hope that helps.

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[katmanblue]

Andrew Dice Clay

Jack and Jill went up the hill
Both with a buck and a quarter
...

Better not finish it.

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[katmanblue]

Why Goddard seriously... especially after training reports saying he's struggling with the running, really unnecessary

He wasn't that far behind but he was blowing hard. If he is a stay at home defender he'll be fine.

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[The Flying Doormat]

obviously the "West Australian" are full of dumb ass hipsters who don't know the difference between a football and a cantelope.

You should try reading some of the crap dickheads on flogbook are spinning on the issue... and they call themselves Carlton fans. Illiterate halfwits with single digit IQs.

 

[ray8182]

The way I see it is we had to bring in 3 mature back up players to pad out the list last year, this year we have brought in maybe 1 in Bugg but that comes down to perception. As I stated earlier Goddard is not a top up player IMO but a long term prospect which I think is proven out by the time SOS put into tracking him, and the fact he delisted Rowe to get him in. My point is we have reduced the need for top up players, which is good progress.

What’s the story with Goddards athleticism. I liked him In his draft year and he was seen as very athletic. Now l hear speed and agility are a problem for him.

Has the ankle injury at stkilda caused him problems?


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[ray8182]

Stocker looks like a real strong player from his highlights. Looks really good.

Carlton must rate him highly because the deal they have done could turn very ugly. Imagine if stocker struggles in the vfl next year, which is possible for a first year player, and Carlton finish bottom 5, and as many expect the crows play deep into finals.

Ultimately Carltons recruiters have rated Stocker higher than most other clubs. If they are wrong and Carlton finishes near the bottom next year the critics will come from far and wide.

I think we underestimate just how much of a gamble this is. Forget about points, how many people would trade a top 5 pick for 2 late first rounders. It’s all well and good to be positive but the downside must be always be acknowledged and there is plenty here.

It’s a very ballsy call.



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