List Mgmt. Carlton's 2018 Draft Thread II

[passmark]

Stocker looks like a real strong player from his highlights. Looks really good.

Carlton must rate him highly because the deal they have done could turn very ugly. Imagine if stocker struggles in the vfl next year, which is possible for a first year player, and Carlton finish bottom 5, and as many expect the crows play deep into finals.

Ultimately Carltons recruiters have rated Stocker higher than most other clubs. If they are wrong and Carlton finishes near the bottom next year the critics will come from far and wide.

I think we underestimate just how much of a gamble this is. Forget about points, how many people would trade a top 5 pick for 2 late first rounders. It’s all well and good to be positive but the downside must be always be acknowledged and there is plenty here.

It’s a very ballsy call.



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If the last two seasons are anything to go by Stocker will likely play round 1 and stay in for some time.

 

[katmanblue]

Stocker looks like a real strong player from his highlights. Looks really good.

Carlton must rate him highly because the deal they have done could turn very ugly. Imagine if stocker struggles in the vfl next year, which is possible for a first year player, and Carlton finish bottom 5, and as many expect the crows play deep into finals.

Ultimately Carltons recruiters have rated Stocker higher than most other clubs. If they are wrong and Carlton finishes near the bottom next year the critics will come from far and wide.

I think we underestimate just how much of a gamble this is. Forget about points, how many people would trade a top 5 pick for 2 late first rounders. It’s all well and good to be positive but the downside must be always be acknowledged and there is plenty here.

It’s a very ballsy call.



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Then, it's a swing and a miss.

We are at the stage were we can take some risks. They aren't all going to come off.

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[Manhattanite]

Stocker looks like a real strong player from his highlights. Looks really good.

Carlton must rate him highly because the deal they have done could turn very ugly. Imagine if stocker struggles in the vfl next year, which is possible for a first year player, and Carlton finish bottom 5, and as many expect the crows play deep into finals.

Ultimately Carltons recruiters have rated Stocker higher than most other clubs. If they are wrong and Carlton finishes near the bottom next year the critics will come from far and wide.

I think we underestimate just how much of a gamble this is. Forget about points, how many people would trade a top 5 pick for 2 late first rounders. It’s all well and good to be positive but the downside must be always be acknowledged and there is plenty here.

It’s a very ballsy call.



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We won’t be able to assess the trade next year itself as Stocker will take 3-6 years to show his true potential.

If SOS and the team considered Stocker say Pick 10 (and not 19) then the deal is in effect our 2019 Pick for a Pick 10 and Crows 2019 Pick. So in points it probably is OK. But as you said this goes beyond points.

Personally I think we will finish about 15th so we gave up Pick 4 for about 2019 Pick 12 and Stocker. So in points it’s fair. But what we do with that Pick 12 next year and how Stocker stacks up over his career will truly determine the final value of the deal.


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[footyfan1978]

We won’t be able to assess the trade next year itself as Stocker will take 3-6 years to show his true potential.

It is same with every pick and draftee for every single draft. You never know if pick 4 is going to be a bust or win until many years later in retrospect. You NEVER know at the time though, when you pick a player or trade a draft pick. You can only ever speculate at the time of decision. That is the nature of the system. It is a gamble and you got to back yourself to get more right than wrong over time, just like you would in game of poker.

You never know when you draft Murray Vance if that early pick is going to be what it seemed worth heaps before a draft. You never know when you draft Luke Livingston if he going to be the next Nick Riewoldt or next Ryan Fitzgerald or Gumbleton. You never know when you draft Lukosias if he going to be the next Jack Watts or Buddy Franklin. You never know if you draft Rankine if he going to be the next Cyril Rioli, Alwyn Davey or Richard Tambling. You never know when you draft Kris Massie if he going to be the next Bruce Doull or Alan Montgomery. Those approaching it like it not a gamble are the silly ones. Those playing knowing it is a gamble and backing themselves, knowing they cannot get every thing work are the wise ones. I really liking our approach now and hated it at start of decade. We got such a smarter group managing our list area now the direction is one can feel a lot of confidence in as a member now. I am not going to like every decision or see wisdom in all or ever expect it all to work but if most do and club are as open as they can be with the direction and decisions, I can not ask more than that. Well done SOS, Agresta, Brodie, Bolts and the whole recruiting team.

Welcome aboard Liam Stocker. Real happy you part of team and great club we have here.

 

[jezzatigerbrent]

We won’t be able to assess the trade next year itself as Stocker will take 3-6 years to show his true potential.

If SOS and the team considered Stocker say Pick 10 (and not 19) then the deal is in effect our 2019 Pick for a Pick 10 and Crows 2019 Pick. So in points it probably is OK. But as you said this goes beyond points.

Personally I think we will finish about 15th so we gave up Pick 4 for about 2019 Pick 12 and Stocker. So in points it’s fair. But what we do with that Pick 12 next year and how Stocker stacks up over his career will truly determine the final value of the deal.


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''
the ancillary benefit in getting the ball out of the middle to assist Paddy Cripps (having missed out on Dylan Shiel) has to be factored in also. If Liam Stocker can be an effective inside Beast who learns[12 months of development now rather than later/2019] to take the punishment and has a willingness to absorb punishment, burst from a stoppage, yet still distribute with Precision disposal and extract the ball then he is the type of player we are desperately looking for .
I think we desperately wanted Dylan Shiel , and that classy,bull body type/ with similar attributes that could effectively assist Cripps . That was a glaring weakness and gave us a chance to cease leaving Cripps so isolated and we are hoping that Liam Stocker can be developed along similar lines .>> Silvagni and Co also hoping that Setterfield and an injury free Kennedy do similar
why not develop now rather than later if he's our man and I trust SOS

 

[TooBlue14]

No more top 10 picks for us. Let’s move on a trade in mature 25 year olds (obviously if needed) we could be in a position to only use the rookie draft if all our existing players show something at AFL level. Next year players like macreadie, Kerr, Polson, cuningham could be playing out of their skins but if there are no spots in our best 22 available other clubs might come running for them. And they may start wanting first team games. We’re still some time away but we can’t fit all our kids into the team atm.

 

[inyourcool]

Do we have any spots left on our list? Or is it full, more so with rookies?

Is SSP an option? S Fisher perhaps?

 

[footyfan1978]

Do we have any spots left on our list? Or is it full, more so with rookies?

Is SSP an option? S Fisher perhaps?

Yes, we have a spot left on purpose to keep options open to add someone in pre-season supplemental selection period (SSP) or the mid-season draft for rookie list. The SSP is from December till mid March. It is designed to allow a club to add an extra player if someone went down in pre-season period liked happened with us last pre-season of Docherty or someone like Nick Duigan needing to retire in pre-season that happened about five years back. But clubs can use it other ways like Giants doing with Shane Mumford or Dons with Zac Clarke too. We left one rookie list spot vacant so rather than it only be possible if someone injured we using it with purpose to add someone early in new year or later in mid-season draft if no one we super keen on during pre-season period.

I guess if you a Sam Fisher or Jed Lamb if you still allowed to train with us some chance get added after Christmas but you can not bank on it if you are the player yourself. I'd be happy to add a Josh Williams or Nathan Freeman too or even a Mitch Grigg.

 

[GapInIkonPark]

If the last two seasons are anything to go by Stocker will likely play round 1 and stay in for some time.

Round 3

Roughly when Zac Fisher and LO’B made their respective debuts.

 

[inyourcool]

Thanks footyfan78

That type of flexibility is handy but I hope we reward one of our NB's with this pathway in particular Fisher who I think can offer something at AFL level

 

[footyfan1978]

Thanks footyfan78

That type of flexibility is handy but I hope we reward one of our NB's with this pathway in particular Fisher who I think can offer something at AFL level

Yes, I agree with the sentiment we should encourage this pathway as much as possible for the VFL team members.

 

[gandaal]

Finbar probably has the worst highlights package of any drafted player I've ever seen.

 

[BlueView]

SOS mentioned in this interview that Stocker was able to play in a number of roles, does anyone know the other positions where he’s proficient?


http://m.carltonfc.com.au/video/2018-11-22/silvagni-recaps-night-one

 

[HBF]

Finbar probably has the worst highlights package of any drafted player I've ever seen.

Troy Menzel had some of the best and look what happened to him.

 

[F_therest]

SOS mentioned in this interview that Stocker was able to play in a number of roles, does anyone know the other positions where he’s proficient?


http://m.carltonfc.com.au/video/2018-11-22/silvagni-recaps-night-one

Read somewhere up forward.

Soon he could spend some time next year playing that mobile medium forward role like Butler, caddy at Richmond.

 

[goreds]

Club absolutely wrapped with Stocker.

2 recruiters(Carlton) had him top 7 and 1 thinks higher because of missed opportunity this year ( broken jaw).

Reasons: inside/outside mid. Turns to opposite side when under pressure. Disaplined with the ball in hand(lowers eyes and gives quick in close), speed and size/frame.

On next years pick swap: not concerned about pick as will go for free agent and if/when they nominate us, deal gets done.

Are we a long way down the track with free agents? Yes, a very long way...

On Finbar, has ‘it’ and huge upside and wants to develop.

 

[Wily trout]

Over the years I have read many Blues posters comments about how Players X were still available when we picked Y players instead, and that we should have picked X. I loved how excited our recruitment team were when the deal was done and they picked Stocker, they were over the moon.
I have a feeling in the near future, there will be a few teams supporters having the same types of conversations on their respective boards, along the lines of 'Stocker was still available when we picked X, imagine how good it would have been if we picked him instead of X'.
I don't really care about points or where the Crows finish (well maybe I would like them to crash and burn), I reckon we will be trading our first next year for a mature player anyway. The way I see it, is we got the kid we really, really rated, and that's the most important part of the equation.

 

[gandaal]

Troy Menzel had some of the best and look what happened to him.

I don't think it was football skill that let Troy down.

 

[murphbf08]

i love that clip of agresta assessong the draft saying that doing the trade to get stocker was a "no brainer" , and i agree as well, we either get pick 10-18 from the crows , plenty of good players recruited on this bracket, or more likely we trade it anyway. I'm actually really struggling to see the downside here . IMO it a sweetener from the crows for the mcgovern trade in which we over paid.How can't people see this, it's like their conditioned to carlton being crap and getting low picks and thats what the footy season is about. Snap out of it people we've got a bloody good list now and will be racing up the ladder, wether its this year or next.

 

[AlecDuncan]

I actually think Goddard is a great replacement for Rowe if we can get his body right, totally different proposition to O’shea and Mullet and even Bugg, he is a long term prospect and at 22 is the perfect age, unless we get injuries again he has time to build some form in the VFL and get himself right, SOS has had this change planned for a long time so I have faith that he knows what he is about with this one. Goddard is no one year top up he is an upgrade.

Yep, I can see the point of picking up HG - even if we already have McCreadie. Worth a punt.

The second rookie spot should have been for a creative small forward - our last crying need. Bugg ain't that.

 

[Bluey24]

We have 23 1st round picks on our list now following the drafts.

Is that a record?

 

[Doro]

i love that clip of agresta assessong the draft saying that doing the trade to get stocker was a "no brainer" , and i agree as well, we either get pick 10-18 from the crows , plenty of good players recruited on this bracket, or more likely we trade it anyway. I'm actually really struggling to see the downside here . IMO it a sweetener from the crows for the mcgovern trade in which we over paid.How can't people see this, it's like their conditioned to carlton being crap and getting low picks and thats what the footy season is about. Snap out of it people we've got a bloody good list now and will be racing up the ladder, wether its this year or next.

The downside if you can't see it, is a repeat of the season we just had next year. It's natural to be positive at this time of year, but trading a first rounder in our position is a big risk. It won't be an argument won on the internet though, only on-field.

 

[Bluey24]

Stocker looks like a real strong player from his highlights. Looks really good.

Carlton must rate him highly because the deal they have done could turn very ugly. Imagine if stocker struggles in the vfl next year, which is possible for a first year player, and Carlton finish bottom 5, and as many expect the crows play deep into finals.

Ultimately Carltons recruiters have rated Stocker higher than most other clubs. If they are wrong and Carlton finishes near the bottom next year the critics will come from far and wide.

I think we underestimate just how much of a gamble this is. Forget about points, how many people would trade a top 5 pick for 2 late first rounders. It’s all well and good to be positive but the downside must be always be acknowledged and there is plenty here.

It’s a very ballsy call.



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Fair enough. If we miss, we miss.....

I think SOS places a lot of weight on the character / intellect of potential draftees. Stocker's highlights are decent - granted he is an upper-ager - but he just speaks so. bloody. well. You can hear the determination and competitiveness in his voice. That's what gives me confidence.

 

[B if i Know]

Owies is a Cat B,not included

Yep. Still only 22 and 196cm and 96kgs. Had some bad injuries. Get him fit could be a great pick. Certainly need his type

Club absolutely wrapped with Stocker.

2 recruiters(Carlton) had him top 7 and 1 thinks higher because of missed opportunity this year ( broken jaw).

Reasons: inside/outside mid. Turns to opposite side when under pressure. Disaplined with the ball in hand(lowers eyes and gives quick in close), speed and size/frame.

On next years pick swap: not concerned about pick as will go for free agent and if/when they nominate us, deal gets done.

Are we a long way down the track with free agents? Yes, a very long way...

On Finbar, has ‘it’ and huge upside and wants to develop.

What do you think the chances were of us doing a deal with Adelaide before the draft of swapping 2019 1st's + getting pick 8?
Because in the minds of our List Management/Recruiting Team, this is exactly what's crystallized to get Liam Stocker on to our list. No wonder they reacted the way they did when the deal was done.
Time will tell how this will be rated, but right now, we're the only club that acted in Rd 1 on getting a player who slipped way past where we rated him....Double thumbs up for me.

 

[Doro]

Club absolutely wrapped with Stocker.

2 recruiters(Carlton) had him top 7 and 1 thinks higher because of missed opportunity this year ( broken jaw).

Reasons: inside/outside mid. Turns to opposite side when under pressure. Disaplined with the ball in hand(lowers eyes and gives quick in close), speed and size/frame.

On next years pick swap: not concerned about pick as will go for free agent and if/when they nominate us, deal gets done.

Are we a long way down the track with free agents? Yes, a very long way...

On Finbar, has ‘it’ and huge upside and wants to develop.

He'll be a good one to gauge how our recruiting network is travelling, the unknown late pick.