List Mgmt. Carlton's 2018 Draft Thread (cont. in Part 2)

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

So you are saying that just about every recruiter in the land is wrong. Definitely not vanilla. He is a natural footballer if that’s what you mean? Out of interest, who would you take ahead of him and why?

To be fair if we are talking best available recruiters probably get it wrong 9 times out of ten

 

[Blue Runnings]

I take it you've spoken to each and every recruiter in the country??? That still doesn't change the fact he's vanilla.

View attachment 577324
Photos by yours truly.

He even wears a vanilla jumper FFS. Could it get any more vanilla???

Just as I thought still can’t say why you think he is vanilla and who you would choose over him. And yes let’s just say I’m not very well connected with the TAC cup, you are right. Anyways, respect your opinion and let’s pull this conversation out in 2 - 3 years time.

 

[Blue__Balls]

So in other words you couldn't find anything he's done that's not vanilla???

Why does he need to have some kind of fancy point of difference, beyond doing almost everything to a high standard, consistently?

We've got a number of high impact players who don't look like being high production, so is there anything wrong with valuing the consistent, balanced midfielder who runs all day and gets the ball at will?

Cripps winning it on the inside, supported by Setterfield and Kennedy.
Fisher, SPS, Dow, Cuningham, O'Brien, Pickett - all doing damage when they get the ball.

Walsh seems a good, complementary player for that group. A smart, neat footballer, who works hard all game to provide an option and connect the play. Disposal good enough, defensive work good enough, contested footy good enough. He may not be "dynamic", but that doesn't diminish his value to our side, if he can be that second player (besides Cripps) who is able to average 25-30 touches by his third season, and allow the more damaging midfielders to find space to use their tools.

Josh Kelly was vanilla.
Angus Brayshaw was vanilla.
Darcy Parish was vanilla.
Andrew McGrath was vanilla.
Andrew Brayshaw was vanilla.
Adam Cerra was vanilla.

Not all were Pick 1 - but they all deserve to be in the conversation for their draft year. They were also "safe" picks. Not guaranteed to be match-winners, but reliable, consistent, balanced players who had an extremely high chance of becoming quality AFL midfielders.

Reckon Walsh is in the same basket, and that's probably what we need to add.

 

[The Smoking Gun]

I love Vanilla ice cream. Especially when you get to add some topping, some nuts and put it alongside a flavoursome milkshake... Makes a great ice cream sandwich. Vanilla adds flavour in so many ways and is very versatile! I reckon we have all the support in place now to develop this "Bland" flavour nicely.

I agree Walsh is vanilla. But he's the Super premium $10 bucks for a small tub vanilla

The good news is vanilla matches well with all the other flavours

Edit: Blubagger71 sniped me by a couple seconds. Good minds think alike

Now we're starting to get somewhere gentlemen. Walsh is never going to be the type that wins a game off his own boot. Nor is he going stand on someone's head to take a weekly speccie and nor is he the type who'll rip a game to shreds in a 10 minute burst. He'll never have explosive acceleration or be super quick.

What Walsh does do better than anyone else in this draft pool is consistently play the percentages to his advantage. Right side, left side, inside, outside, it's all the same. Being vanilla is a large part of what makes Walsh what he is and to why his is so consistent. You two blokes get it. Vanilla is not always a bad thing and in Walsh's case it's a good thing.

 

[Bostonian]

None of that changes the fact that Walsh will be the most Vanilla Pick 1 in recent memory.

And the surest bet to play 200 games.

We aren't in a position yet where we can shoot for the stars and use our pick on far riskier propositions.

Maybe in a few years time we can, but not now.

 

[The Smoking Gun]

Doesn't have a bad game.
Very high football IQ.
Regularly has 30 possessions.
Intelligent individual
Team player and leader
Can kick, mark and handball also.

What I think we miss sometimes is what an individual can add to the whole.
We're looking for 'tricks' more so than team players and that can be a mistake.
At a distance, Walsh seems to be the type that won't stop until he gets the very best of himself.
I felt the same way about Cripps early on and as I did about Dow. Reckon Walsh is in this family.

Vanilla Harks. Admit it.

Just as I thought still can’t say why you think he is vanilla and who you would choose over him. And yes let’s just say I’m not very well connected with the TAC cup, you are right. Anyways, respect your opinion and let’s pull this conversation out in 2 - 3 years time.

See my previous post knackers.

He's still vanilla. Deal with it!!!

Why does he need to have some kind of fancy point of difference, beyond doing almost everything to a high standard, consistently?

We've got a number of high impact players who don't look like being high production, so is there anything wrong with valuing the consistent, balanced midfielder who runs all day and gets the ball at will?

Cripps winning it on the inside, supported by Setterfield and Kennedy.
Fisher, SPS, Dow, Cuningham, O'Brien, Pickett - all doing damage when they get the ball.

Walsh seems a good, complementary player for that group. A smart, neat footballer, who works hard all game to provide an option and connect the play. Disposal good enough, defensive work good enough, contested footy good enough. He may not be "dynamic", but that doesn't diminish his value to our side, if he can be that second player (besides Cripps) who is able to average 25-30 touches by his third season, and allow the more damaging midfielders to find space to use their tools.

Josh Kelly was vanilla.
Angus Brayshaw was vanilla.
Darcy Parish was vanilla.
Andrew McGrath was vanilla.
Andrew Brayshaw was vanilla.
Adam Cerra was vanilla.

Not all were Pick 1 - but they all deserve to be in the conversation for their draft year. They were also "safe" picks. Not guaranteed to be match-winners, but reliable, consistent, balanced players who had an extremely high chance of becoming quality AFL midfielders.

Reckon Walsh is in the same basket, and that's probably what we need to add.

I never said there did need to be a point of difference. I said he's vanilla. VANILLA.

FWIW, Both Brayshaw kids & Kelly's ability to transition from inside to outside at speed made them anything but vanilla in their draft years.
Cerra's elite disposal by hand & foot off both sides and his vision made him anything, but vanilla.
McGrath's speed and acceleration made him not vanilla.
I'm not sure Darcy Parish makes vanilla.

 

[Johnny James]

Doesn't have a bad game.
Very high football IQ.
Regularly has 30 possessions.
Intelligent individual
Team player and leader
Can kick, mark and handball also.

What I think we miss sometimes is what an individual can add to the whole.
We're looking for 'tricks' more so than team players and that can be a mistake.
At a distance, Walsh seems to be the type that won't stop until he gets the very best of himself.
I felt the same way about Cripps early on and as I did about Dow. Reckon Walsh is in this family.

Exactly Harks.
Very well said.

 

[The Smoking Gun]

And the surest bet to play 200 games.

We aren't in a position yet where we can shoot for the stars and use our pick on far riskier propositions.

Maybe in a few years time we can, but not now.

He's still vanilla, which something you haven't denied.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Vanilla Harks. Admit it.


See my previous post knackers.

He's still vanilla. Deal with it!!!


I never said there did need to be a point of difference. I said he's vanilla. VANILLA.

FWIW, Both Brayshaw kids & Kelly's ability to transition from inside to outside at speed made them anything but vanilla in their draft years.
Cerra's elite disposal by hand & foot off both sides and his vision made him anything, but vanilla.
McGrath's speed and acceleration made him not vanilla.
I'm not sure Darcy Parish makes vanilla.

Right. So you're taking the piss by using a word that typically has negative connotations when discussing a footballer, but silently, internally, interpreting it in a positive light - knowing full well that by using said word you're going to annoy people, and then you can string them along for a day or so for your own entertainment.

Mate, get a life. You're a twit.

 

[Arr0w]

For some reason, I feel like ice cream

 

[Bostonian]

He's still vanilla, which something you haven't denied.

Because its a nothing statement. So he turns into an Adam Treloar like player, would take that every day of the week.

 

[Blue Runnings]

Vanilla Harks. Admit it.


See my previous post knackers.

He's still vanilla. Deal with it!!!


I never said there did need to be a point of difference. I said he's vanilla. VANILLA.

FWIW, Both Brayshaw kids & Kelly's ability to transition from inside to outside at speed made them anything but vanilla in their draft years.
Cerra's elite disposal by hand & foot off both sides and his vision made him anything, but vanilla.
McGrath's speed and acceleration made him not vanilla.
I'm not sure Darcy Parish makes vanilla.

So knackers you still haven’t told me who you are choosing over him and why? I’m waiting ...

 

[Blue__Balls]

So knackers you still haven’t told me who you are choosing over him and why? I’m waiting ...

Don't feed him - he's well aware Walsh is the best fit for us, he's just using the word "vanilla" to get a rise out of people.

 

[tarczonandjane]

He's still vanilla, which something you haven't denied.

I’ve never seen him play, so have absolutely no idea whether or not he’s vanilla. But the whole conversation reminds me of Cazzesman’s review of Bryce Gibbs prior to the 2006 draft. He said something along the lines of “he does everything well, but nothing outstandingly.”

 

[HARKER]

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-10-23/tomorrows-heroes-izak-rankine

.......and so it begins.

EDIT: There's Ben Silvagni at the 1.20 mark.

 

[Omega Blue]

You know who else is vanilla, Tom Mitchell

 

[Mr_Plow]

I can't believe that in 2018 we are criticising players based on their opposite foot.

Nobody ******* uses their opposite foot anymore, lol.

Plenty of vanilla footballers have gone on to win Brownlows, Norm Smiths and captain premiership sides.

 

[Jimmae]

Shanked one in the you tube clip did he? His left side is no issue, better than most. By the way how was Judds and Murphy’s left side? They were / are horrible players.

Judd was almost equal on his left, while Murphy is above average.

Horrible comparison.

Because its a nothing statement. So he turns into an Adam Treloar like player, would take that every day of the week.

Treloar tears out of stoppages, but otherwise the comparison is fair.

I’ve never seen him play, so have absolutely no idea whether or not he’s vanilla. But the whole conversation reminds me of Cazzesman’s review of Bryce Gibbs prior to the 2006 draft. He said something along the lines of “he does everything well, but nothing outstandingly.”

Gibbs had a prodigious kick and was able to rest as a medium forward it defender.

Walsh doesn't possess that versatility and skill by foot, but his endurance is much better.

Rozee has much more in common with Gibbs, but sacrifices the footy IQ for speed and agility.

 

[Blue and Silver]

You know who else is vanilla, Tom Mitchell

Extremely true.



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[Jimmae]

You know who else is vanilla, Tom Mitchell

A guy like Mitchell is played through to unlock opportunities for outside runners; he's a midfield pivot.

Walsh demands that outside ball more often than he dishes it off, to the tune of 60% of his disposals coming via handball receives and uncontested marks.

Even this year, Mitchell's numbers were not that high (especially in terms of handball receives). It's a side of his game that will likely get clamped down on at AFL level, and I'm not convinced he has that overall athletic package and disposal skills to get around that.

 

[Macca43]

Looking at the comments here complaining that Walsh is "vanilla" from the limited vision I have seen of both players I must say I was more excited by Setterfield than I am by Walsh but I still think Walsh is going to be an extraordinary player.

To me Walsh looks a lot like Murphy, he just out works his opponents up and down the field constantly providing an option, being the link in the chain and getting to the next contest. That may not be as exciting as Dow's burst speed, Cripps' contested work or even SPS's ability to find space it will be a very integral component of a midfield that is building a number of complimentary parts.

Setterfield on the other hand looks a lot like Bontempelli, great vision and clean hands at a contest and the ability to go forward and be a target with strong hands overhead.

 

[HARKER]

A guy like Mitchell is played through to unlock opportunities for outside runners; he's a midfield pivot.

Walsh demands that outside ball more often than he dishes it off, to the tune of 60% of his disposals coming via handball receives and uncontested marks.

Even this year, Mitchell's numbers were not that high (especially in terms of handball receives). It's a side of his game that will likely get clamped down on at AFL level, and I'm not convinced he has that overall athletic package and disposal skills to get around that.

So what when you're getting 30+ possessions a game?

The percentage isn't relative when numbers are so high and why does he get these possessions on the outside?
Is it possibly because his man can't keep up with him for the work-rate? That's not a bad thing now, is it?


So..........Who wants to fire up a Phantom Draft?

 

[Blue__Balls]

A guy like Mitchell is played through to unlock opportunities for outside runners; he's a midfield pivot.

Walsh demands that outside ball more often than he dishes it off, to the tune of 60% of his disposals coming via handball receives and uncontested marks.

Even this year, Mitchell's numbers were not that high (especially in terms of handball receives). It's a side of his game that will likely get clamped down on at AFL level, and I'm not convinced he has that overall athletic package and disposal skills to get around that.

You're comparing fully developed Mitchell in an AFL environment to a 17yo Walsh playing junior footy.

Whatever complaints we have about how Walsh gets his possessions at the moment don't hold much weight in terms of how he'll develop in the professional environment. Benchmarking draftees against their peers makes sense, but claiming that Walsh's handball receive ratio is higher than Mitchell doesn't mean a whole lot.

Personally, I'd be happy for the club to take Walsh or Smith at Pick 1 (or trading down). I'd be equally happy to end up with Rankine or Rozee. I see value in all of them, and don't watch enough of them to make an educated decision on which would be the best prospect. I also tend to be glass half full - so whoever we pick will have my full support, and I'll enjoy watching them play to their strengths for the next decade. On types - Walsh looks a good fit, Smith the same, Rankine a bit of a risk but potentially worth it, and Rozee reminds me of a heap of "outside" types who seem to come in and excel. Lukosius is one I'm just less naturally excited about, can't even really put my finger on why, and the Kings are the last thing we need.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

Perhaps Arr0w or The Smoking Gun could help me out here, is Harry Nolan worth a rookie spot as a key defender?

 

[La Dispute]

How’s got the higher ceiling out of Dow and Walsh?

My gut feel is we’ve got enough guys with huge ceilings (if they reach them) in Cripps, Setterfield, SPS and Fisher in our midfield. If Dow can put on another 7-8 kg of muscle he will start to dominate the clearances in a few years too.

I like the Marc Murphy comparison with Walsh - confidently outthinks and our works the players around him. Has X-factor which comes out at opportune moments. This is where I get the Selwood comparison as well.