Carlton's Draft penalties

[Chemical]

Originally posted by TheSheik
Trust me on this one Thrawny (and I don't stick my neck out like this unless I'm 100% positive), this is all very very true. I wish I could elaborate on it further but I just can't.

why bring it up then?

 

[LordLucifer]

Originally posted by chemical
why bring it up then?

Because earlier in the thread, an Essendon supporting poster by the name of 'Gimp' was taking a few potshots at the Blues in regards to the salary cap breaches we had.

 

[Chemical]

Originally posted by TheSheik
Because earlier in the thread, an Essendon supporting poster by the name of 'Gimp' was taking a few potshots at the Blues in regards to the salary cap breaches we had.

theGimp knows the infamous godsmack in real life. ignore him

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by theGimp
You must have known I would confirm both. Just like with this thread and your rabble club, you seem to have trouble accepting the consequences of your actions.

My actions? What actions would they be?

Spewing forth crap just because a friend of yours has a vendetta doesn't give you credibility you know.

Here is my slant on it .... again.

Carlton were busted fair and square for paying Stephen O'Reilly out for his last season outside of the salary cap. The gain to Carlton from this scenario, it gave us the opportunity to fill his place on the list with a young kid. I believe the amount in question was 100k or so.

Carlton voluntarily admitted to an agreement to pay SOS and Bradley outside of the cap to a level befitting players of their class. Potential benefit to Carlton, allowed us to retain two club champions and/or retain other players. Clearly wrong and unfair, no problem with that. We did not end up paying the money to the players concerned but the agreement was there and legally we were committed to paying it so legally we were over the cap.

So they are the breaches. They did not take place in 1995 so the flag was above board.

The spectre of these payments was raised in 2000 or 2001 but the AFL did nothing at the time. Please note that as Carlton finished in the 8 in both seasons, potential draft penalties would not be as steep.

When the AFL decided to investigate late in the 2002 season, the rumours of previous years suddenly took on a life of their own and suddenly the media knew everything and were hanging us out to dry. By this time everyone knew we would be receiving picks 1 and 2 in the draft.

In the official washup, Carlton payed out a player no longer up to standard and made a promise to pay extra to two stars they wanted to retain. Our penalty for this was 930k and loss of a draft picks 1, 2, 31 and I think 35 plus pick 1 in the preseason draft for 2002 and picks 5 and 21 in the 2003 draft.

If the investigation had have been carried out when they were first rumoured in 2000 and had have been rushed through in time for the draft like they were in 2002, we stood to lose two picks just outside the top 10, two high 20's picks and two early 40's picks plus high preseason picks.

Timing was crucial here and while we did the crime there is no doubting that it was timed to inflict maximum pain and was completely arbitrary.

No denial, the club cheated and deserved to be punished and not just a slap on the wrist either since the old board simply did not get it and refused to move with the times but the way it happened and when it happened means that the likelihood of any team EVER losing as much again regardless of their history or severity of the breach is unlikely to ever be duplicated.

You can continue to say we are in denial and not moving forward but all you would be doing is ignoring that we acknowledge the facts of the matter and feel that the penalties and the way it all transpired that sits like a lead weight in the pits of our stomachs. Many people fall victim to the 'they've cheated since the dawn of time' mentality and like most things, the more they say it, the more it becomes fact instead of what is really is ... speculation.

Get over it? We are moving forward onfield and gaining in confidence even. However, did Collingwood fans get over our president gloating over the 5 point GF win in 79? That one gets used as an excuse for slinging off at Carlton from time to time. Did Essendon fans get over the 99 prelim? That one gets used a bit too. Did the fans of other clubs that John Elliott called 'insignificant' or 'rabble' get over that? The fact that they still use that as ammunition to rub it into us when we are down suggests not. They all move forward and look forward to what the next game or season may bring but they never really forget or get over it.

Search yourself, anything about the past still act as a spur or raise your pulse rate when you think about it? Hypocrisy is present EVERYWHERE.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by theGimp
I meant CLUB. Hence the theme of this thread... hellooo.. anyone there ?
For a moderator in the Carlton board you have missed alot in the last year or two. If that aint a rabble what is ?

I think you are missing a lot and Thrawn is completely right in what he is saying.

The team onfield were a 'rabble' (disagree with the terminology but for the point of this arguement...) in 2002 and 2003 but there is no indication that the club was a rabble. The team is a part of the club. The club consists of more than just an onfield team.

I would suggest that the club was more or a 'rabble' in the late 90's through to 2001 when the team was performing very well. Spiralling debt being concealed and inept recruiting and planning meant we were being set up for a fall down the track. When the team did take a tumble onfield in 2002 and the draft penalties crippled us, the club was busily righting the ship and acting as anything but a rabble. Our recruiting philosophy has been fantastic ever since in spite of draft penalties and our debt is being cleared hand over fist. We still have to address home ground vs sponsorship issues and believe we are being railroaded into fast tracking it either by Collo's TD interest or the inexplicable free to air television scheduling this season.

We may have appeared to have been in disarray with the trials of Angwin and Norman this season but we dealt with it with sensitivity and an eye on the bigger picture. We also had to erase the remnants of a bygone era with older players rebelling against the new regime but these are all positives in the end. Sweeping the club clean may appear to be messy and choke the place with dust but when the dust clears, we are left with a bright and shiny club.

 

[theGimp]

Originally posted by TheSheik
Because earlier in the thread, an Essendon supporting poster by the name of 'Gimp' was taking a few potshots at the Blues in regards to the salary cap breaches we had.

Perhaps you should read the thread from start to finish before saying things like this, my first post to this thread was a reply to an insult, You guys get off by telling me about glass houses, and taking potshots... please.

I will say it agian, if you cant stand the heat... blah blah... and as for the Sheik, spraying rubbish like Essendon should consider themselves lucky because you say so... laughable any you know it.

Back it up or keep it shut.

Chemical, thanks for your completely pointless input to this thread, I know someone who you dont like so I dont know what Im talking about.
Now there's a way to get your credibility back.

 

[bogan_blue]

At least Carlton doesn't have a premiership victory that is tainted by premiership salary cap rorts like Essendon in 93 (and most probably 2000)
Our club has far more intergrity than the scum from Windy Hill.

 

[theGimp]

Originally posted by bogan_blue
At least Carlton doesn't have a premiership victory that is tainted by premiership salary cap rorts like Essendon in 93 (and most probably 2000)
Our club has far more intergrity than the scum from Windy Hill.

I have heard that you are one of the most moronic individuals to post on this site.... case proved.

Do you even know what decade this is ?
How unfortunate for you, how did you manage to compile this brilliant statement without throwing up all over yourself ?

Any more brilliant Carlton supporters wanna back up this tool ?

Cant wait.

 

[Deej]

Originally posted by kahuna71
fair enough. most will probably agree that the penalty is too harsh.

First you're saying bravo that someone says the we were punished according to the crime, now you're saying the punishment was probably too harsh. Do you change your tune according to whether you like who you're talking to, or do you actually have a genuine opinion on what happened that doesn't revolve around being spiteful?

I agree we should've been punished, and did back then too. But the penalties were outrageously harsh, they were inconsistent with what has transpired before and since with essendon, they were enforced half way through the draft/trade process which is akin to changing the rules at half time, and they were deliberated and decided upon by a bloke who was once president of a club that broke the salary cap under his reign. One of the most corrupt and pathetic moments in AFL history, and I will never forget it.

 

[Badabing]

Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
Carlton were busted fair and square for paying Stephen O'Reilly out for his last season outside of the salary cap. The gain to Carlton from this scenario, it gave us the opportunity to fill his place on the list with a young kid. I believe the amount in question was 100k or so.

Carlton voluntarily admitted to an agreement to pay SOS and Bradley outside of the cap to a level befitting players of their class. Potential benefit to Carlton, allowed us to retain two club champions and/or retain other players. Clearly wrong and unfair, no problem with that. We did not end up paying the money to the players concerned but the agreement was there and legally we were committed to paying it so legally we were over the cap.

So they are the breaches. They did not take place in 1995 so the flag was above board.

The spectre of these payments was raised in 2000 or 2001 but the AFL did nothing at the time. Please note that as Carlton finished in the 8 in both seasons, potential draft penalties would not be as steep.

When the AFL decided to investigate late in the 2002 season, the rumours of previous years suddenly took on a life of their own and suddenly the media knew everything and were hanging us out to dry. By this time everyone knew we would be receiving picks 1 and 2 in the draft.

In the official washup, Carlton payed out a player no longer up to standard and made a promise to pay extra to two stars they wanted to retain. Our penalty for this was 930k and loss of a draft picks 1, 2, 31 and I think 35 plus pick 1 in the preseason draft for 2002 and picks 5 and 21 in the 2003 draft.

If the investigation had have been carried out when they were first rumoured in 2000 and had have been rushed through in time for the draft like they were in 2002, we stood to lose two picks just outside the top 10, two high 20's picks and two early 40's picks plus high preseason picks.

Timing was crucial here and while we did the crime there is no doubting that it was timed to inflict maximum pain and was completely arbitrary.

No denial, the club cheated and deserved to be punished and not just a slap on the wrist either since the old board simply did not get it and refused to move with the times but the way it happened and when it happened means that the likelihood of any team EVER losing as much again regardless of their history or severity of the breach is unlikely to ever be duplicated.

You can continue to say we are in denial and not moving forward but all you would be doing is ignoring that we acknowledge the facts of the matter and feel that the penalties and the way it all transpired that sits like a lead weight in the pits of our stomachs. Many people fall victim to the 'they've cheated since the dawn of time' mentality and like most things, the more they say it, the more it becomes fact instead of what is really is ... speculation.

Get over it? We are moving forward onfield and gaining in confidence even. However, did Collingwood fans get over our president gloating over the 5 point GF win in 79? That one gets used as an excuse for slinging off at Carlton from time to time. Did Essendon fans get over the 99 prelim? That one gets used a bit too. Did the fans of other clubs that John Elliott called 'insignificant' or 'rabble' get over that? The fact that they still use that as ammunition to rub it into us when we are down suggests not. They all move forward and look forward to what the next game or season may bring but they never really forget or get over it.

Search yourself, anything about the past still act as a spur or raise your pulse rate when you think about it? Hypocrisy is present EVERYWHERE.

What he said.....

Seriously though - very well put ODN's. I think most CFC supporters would agree that it wasn't the fact that we got caught but more the timing and magnitude of the penalties. I also agree that while we look forward and try to remain positive (what choice do we have) this is something that will stay with me (and my children) for many years to come. I know too well the feeling of "a lead weight in the pits of our stomachs" as it is still with me everytime the topic is mentioned. When the wheel does eventually turn (again) this will just make it all the sweeter.

I do think though that you and indeed any one of us who tries to explain this to non-carlton people is wasting your time. Too many have taken too much pleasure out of seeing the events of 2002-2003 unfold so how could you possibly expect anyone to sympathise with us or even begin to understand what we have been through. Again this all makes for a much sweeter victory when it DOES come...and as we (blues) all know it WILL come.