You were talking about honorable losses 12 months ago.
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Carlton's list
- Thread starter fishardansin
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You were talking about honorable losses 12 months ago.
And Collingwood kicked him out for the wrong reasons.
Yeah ok.
Seems like a pretty smooth transition so far, rebuilding the list from with in the eight.
But enough of Colllingwoood, this threads about Carltons list.
Malthouse was motivated by anger and revenge when he joined the Blues. Thats no mind-set to lead a club. It leads to bad decision making, eg the recruitment of Dale Thomas.
Eddie didn't want Buckley to coach any other team. If Buckley hadn't come along do you think Malthouse would still be coaching Collingwood? Collingwood supporters always say Mick continued coaching for the wrong reasons but, seeing as though he's a coaching legend, shouldn't he be able to decide when he retires, not the Collingwood football club?
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Start a thread about Colllingwood then. Its been done to death. Buckleys doing a good job so far.
And no, the CLUB decides when a coaches time is up. Its NEVER about the individual. Its why Essendon are in such a deep hole these days. They let Sheedy control his own destiny for about five years too many, then turned on Knights because he was an outsider trying to change the culture, and then let Hird destroy the place.
It's fine if a club wishes to move a coach on but for the supporters of his old club to suggest he shouldn't continue to do what he loves doing because he was let go, is a bit annoying. A club can sack a coach but they can't force him to retire. My point, to bring it back to Carlton, is that Mick is the right person to lead our rebuild and isn't just coaching out of spite. I agree that Buckley is doing a good job at Collingwood for what it's worth.
Warrad Jaite
Surely I am not the only one who thinks the navy blue suits Pinhead Patton to a tee?
Blues should tank and throw pick 1 and a couple of the mid tier guys at GWS to get him... Simpson and Walker maybe...
Blues should tank and throw pick 1 and a couple of the mid tier guys at GWS to get him... Simpson and Walker maybe...
Malthouse was recruited for short term success. Having wasted two years and now being another two years older, suddenly he's the man for the rebuild? I dont think so. He has set the rebuild back two years already by selling a story to the Carlton Board that he coudl do wonders with the list they already had, and all he needed to top it off was Dale Thomas.
I can barely name a single young player who Malthouse has started to develop at Carlton. Menzel doesnt count, being a first round pick and a natural born talent.
I can barely name a single young player who Malthouse has started to develop at Carlton. Menzel doesnt count, being a first round pick and a natural born talent.
Where to start with the Carlton list? They have made some spectacularly bad decisions over the last 5+ years. Its an accumulation of poor list management decisions that leaves them where they are now and can't all be blamed on Mick Malthouse, however I guess he hasn't made things better.
The question is where to from here? Do they bite the bullet and hit rock bottom so they can re-build, which sets them back effectively 10 years to Pagan times. Or do they try to keep cobbling together bits & pieces to stay relevant. I get the feeling this is exactly what Malthouse will do if he is retained. I think possibly this is what the club hierachy will do as well as they will not want to accept that they have gone so far backwards.
Its a really hard one, as I don't think bottoming out is necessarily a good thing to do or fixes problems as we have seen over the years. The draft is a lottery and it will take a long time. Trading only works if you have something worth trading.
The major problem with the Blues is their key positon players and they are not easy to come by. Their depth is truly terrible, but that can be fixed by smart recuiting and drafting but requires a big axe through most of those bottom tier players.
If they get the list build wrong they face the prospect of being irrelevant for the next 5 years. Unfortunately it could quite easily go wrong as they continue to make bad decisions.
Malthouse was always going to have a short term view and still will. They had a good chance to turn the ship around 2 years ago, but they committed to a quick fix. The club is lacking in strong leadership which means mixed decisions are made. They need to decide where they want to be in 5 years and start heading that way. Right now they have no direction.
Port have shown it can be done, but you have to get rid of the prevailing culture and quickly.
The question is where to from here? Do they bite the bullet and hit rock bottom so they can re-build, which sets them back effectively 10 years to Pagan times. Or do they try to keep cobbling together bits & pieces to stay relevant. I get the feeling this is exactly what Malthouse will do if he is retained. I think possibly this is what the club hierachy will do as well as they will not want to accept that they have gone so far backwards.
Its a really hard one, as I don't think bottoming out is necessarily a good thing to do or fixes problems as we have seen over the years. The draft is a lottery and it will take a long time. Trading only works if you have something worth trading.
The major problem with the Blues is their key positon players and they are not easy to come by. Their depth is truly terrible, but that can be fixed by smart recuiting and drafting but requires a big axe through most of those bottom tier players.
If they get the list build wrong they face the prospect of being irrelevant for the next 5 years. Unfortunately it could quite easily go wrong as they continue to make bad decisions.
Malthouse was always going to have a short term view and still will. They had a good chance to turn the ship around 2 years ago, but they committed to a quick fix. The club is lacking in strong leadership which means mixed decisions are made. They need to decide where they want to be in 5 years and start heading that way. Right now they have no direction.
Port have shown it can be done, but you have to get rid of the prevailing culture and quickly.
What a ridiculous statement.
What about Buckley?
Curnow has been much, much better under Malthouse too?
I like that first round picks, "natural born talent" don't count as being developed.
Bizarre.
I'm not arguing against Malthouse. I believe a coach is a coach and developing players and developing a team should all be done simultaneously regardless of what stage the list management is at. But I also think if you are a consistent middle of the road team that's getting even worse then at some stage you're better off doing a St Kilda and making some aggressive moves especially whilst Gibbs, Murphy and Henderson are young enough to see improvement out the other side.
Trading Hampson was a good deal. It got you Docherty who looks like a decent back flanker and has plenty of improvement in him.
But who's going to be next on the trading block to fetch a top 30 if not top 20 pick?
I can't help but think the finals win last year fooled the Carlton footy department in to giving Mick another year to see if the team could achieve some finals success when a rebuild was needed. Waite and Walker are two who probably had some value last year but now don't.
Crankyhawk
Hall of Famer
Well looking at the predict the premiers for the next 5 years thread, shows that anyone can win it in 5 years.
I didnt say there were none, I said there were barely any. Even you could struggle to name three. And yes first round picks are expected to deliver the goods regardless of who the coach is.
More players have gone backwards under Malthouse than have gone forwards. And thats an indictment on his and the clubs ill concieved short term view.
Chism
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Honestly i don't know why you bothered with him!! I did laugh though at the statement and it is one of the funnier things i have seen posted to discredit someone or something!
Besides Buckley and Menzel we have a heap of kids coming through but everyone just says we don't have any to fit in with the crowd on here. Cripps , Holman and Blaine who debuted last night have been doing everything right in the 2's and they will be playing more soon enough.
Levi Casboult seems to coming along o.k under Mick and is still very young and raw. His kicking is the only thing that needs work and he could be anything in 2 years.
There is just no patience anymore when discussing another teams list with a negative view point in mind and unless a young player comes out and totally dominates in his first few games they are all spuds. It is not our kids this season that have held us back it is the more experienced types coupled with Judd and Kruezer being out for 90% of the season. You take a teams 1st ruck out and a midfielder like Judd of course we are going to struggle a bit and these guys are pretty hard to replace.
Old Dark Blues
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Buckley was always going to star.
And Curnow was awesome before Malthouse arrived.
Lets take a look at Graham, Temay, Watson, .....ooops. But yeah - lets just keep on playing Brock.
HEre's a tip - you know that Menzel bloke, absolute natural star - wants out.
Didn't get a kick on Sunday, sorry 2. Almost same stats as Blair, sub at 3/4 time.
Why ? Game plan.
Not the only one.
Especially Watson.
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Not going after Sydney for the failure of most of their first round picks from the last ten years?
Every club has draft failures. Seems reasonably petty to sink into a few Carlton youngsters, when it's obvious it's blokes like Walker, Garlett, Murphy, Henderson, McLean are not doing enough.
Old Dark Blues
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Because almost every player on the list has gone backwards. Casboult has had ONE good game.
Cripps has played 2 games, then dropped - then broken leg having been dropped. How many games has Holman played ? You seriously even wrote that ?
Blaine one game.
Pies had 7 players with under 50 games - blues had 2 - yeah, development.
IT's well known Menzel wants out as he feels he isn't getting a chance. How did Menzel go on Sunday ? Yup - almost same possessions as Blaine, first game subbed on in last quarter ? AWESOME development.
How about Graham ? That's going great too - did you see him running around ?
Watson ?
Giles ?
Anyone ?
Judd and Kruezer out ? Are you kidding me ? We have gone from top FOUR expectations, to bottom four and potential SPOON.
The players are flat, totally uninspired, have no taste for the game and are expressing their disdain. The club has had to come out and repeatedly state there is no rift and they believe in the game plan. Which is blatantly not true as they are saying otherwise.
Your bias is ridiculous - seriously - we both know.
There is NO development, we are not playing the kids, and those that are playing are going backwards at a rate of knots - you can't say otherwise because we are worse now than at any time since 2007 - when Pagan was fired.
Show some honest and integrity about the situation. Simply stone walling ANY question of Micks performance is absolutely ridiculous given the facts which are glaring everyone in the face.
There is no player development. None. Sorry - one - Dale Thomas appears to be playing slightly better than he was last year at Collingwood. LMAO.
How have Hawthorn being going with McEvoy? How did Geelong go last year with Dawson Simpson and Blicavs? Losing because of Kreuzer are you serious? Warnock may be a potato but he's actually going ok at times this year, more often than not at least halving the ruck dual. And claiming Judd as an out proves the point. Judd has been missing, but he's also got half a foot in to retirement if vibe of what he's been saying is anything to judge.
Players 23 and under on Carlton's list:
Good - Menzel.
Maybe - Buckley, Docherty, Cripps
Possible - Graham (54), Holman (51), McInnes (67), Temay (35), Giles (39) + Rookies
Bad - Lucas, Watson
So you're future right now is a very good medium forward (Menzel) a couple of half back flankers and one tall clearance mid and then 5 late draft picks and rookies who you say have been doing everything in the 2's yet have hardly been sighted in the senior team.
Of course it's not the kids fault. But most of your senior players aren't going to improve. Kids represent improvement as it happens with age. Yarran may go up a gear. Same with Casboult but he is 24 so I wouldn't expect huge improvement. Rowe is getting better but would surprise me if he ever got to a really high level. But besides that who is going to improve for Carlton going forward from your 22 last night? Menzel and Johnson right? Whilst Judd, Carrazo, McLean, Walker, Simpson get worse with age.
I look at that list above and I can't help but think Carlton need desperately to get more young talent in and way more draft picks than what they will get. I'm staggered a Carlton supporter thinks they have a 'heap of kids coming through'.
Old Dark Blues
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Rumour has it that Menzel is fuming and wants out.
Got 2 kicks on Sunday night.
Well developed.
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And it is looking like it will end up like Malcolm Blight's return
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The other issue with signing Thomas is they potentially gave a 1st round selection with the compensation for losing Betts.
Melbourne got Pick 23 for losing Syvlia to Fremantle. At worst, Betts would have been the same value.
The likes of Crouch, Hartung, Merrett and Taylor were taken around this pick.
At 27, Thomas isn't going to contribute anything to Carlton's next flag, the players above would have.
Melbourne got Pick 23 for losing Syvlia to Fremantle. At worst, Betts would have been the same value.
The likes of Crouch, Hartung, Merrett and Taylor were taken around this pick.
At 27, Thomas isn't going to contribute anything to Carlton's next flag, the players above would have.
