Carnivore

[faible]

Genuinely got to stop calling what you are posting science

HTNOTH is a noted anti-science contrarian. I assumed he'd leave it on the Conspiracy board and not bring it here, since most of the rest of us tend to leave that kind of stuff at the door here, but alas.

He'll argue in circles all day long and cherry pick the most minute of minutiae to respond to ignoring the breath of any argument you make. Don't waste the energy.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

HTNOTH is a noted anti-science contrarian. I assumed he'd leave it on the Conspiracy board and not bring it here, since most of the rest of us tend to leave that kind of stuff at the door here, but alas.

He'll argue in circles all day long and cherry pick the most minute of minutiae to respond to ignoring the breath of any argument you make. Don't waste the energy.

faible is a noted liar. I've toweled him up so many times on the board he just mentioned, he's in a state of being perpetually triggered whenever I make a post there. Looks like his derangement has reached the level where he's now stalking me here.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

So in response to my suggestion that all you had was an ad hom argument against one of the 4 participants .... you have now produced more of the same against the same participant.

This is interesting. Do you think modern lambs, for example, might have been selectively bred?

 

[M Malice]

Interesting discussion, sorry in advance for the long post, I truncated it as much as possible.

I am a 66 year old male, 185cm and 74kg, I've been around that weight all my adult life apart from dropping to 62kg while undergoing chemo and radiation therapy in 2019. I have experimented a lot with my diet particularly over the last 8 years. I exercise regularly ie Pilates and Kettlebell classes, both are more aerobic than anaerobic, both classes I use high repetition low weight dumbbells and kettlebells. Also 4-5 times a week I go on long steady pace walks.. and multi day trekking a few times a year.

Never been vegan, but have experimented with what was verging on vegetarian a few of times.

Just over 2 years ago I decided I'd try Carnivore, the main factors in that decision were that meat/eggs are the most nutrient dense and most bioavailable food sources and that carbohydrates are not an essential macro nutrient(I did not know that until I researched it) whereas protein and healthy fats are.

I did try strict carnivore for a few month long stretches but couldn't and didn't want to commit to it fully. I settled on 95% Carnivore, mostly Lamb and eggs. I threw in some avocado and berries with a goat milk smoothie as a treat/snack later in the day. I did try one meal a day for a while but found 2 smaller meals worked better for me. I also have a banana around 20 minutes before the workouts I mentioned above(did them mostly fasted previously), only recently started doing that and feel like I have a bit more oomph.

I had a health scare 9 weeks ago, for no apparent reason I started feeling nauseous and fatigued, my blood pressure also dropped quite markedly(circa 85/60) which resulted in light headedness. I had multiple blood tests along with an Ultrasound, CAT Scan, followed by a PET scan, the worry was my cancer had returned however everything turned out clear apart from I have a zero pain inguinal hernia and my FSH levels were elevated substantially(33). It is still a mystery as to why I was feeling that way, only the last 2 weeks I have been getting slowly back to my normal self.

A side effect was I could not stomach heavy meals while sick so I ditched the lamb during this time and started eating less dense meals which included the likes of junk food, rice and mass produced frozen meals, also had an unusual craving for sweets which I gave in to.

I have rejigged my diet and as of today am around 80% Carnivore, my diet consists of lamb, chicken, fish, eggs, frozen avocado/berries, cherries, banana(pre workout only), Chobani genuine Greek yogurt, goat milk, pumpkin, peas, butter and salt. I take a few supplements ie. Vitamin C, Omega 3 liquid with main meal, EAA & Electrolytes drink mix pre and during workouts, and Cocoa Via flavanols in the smoothie. When I dine out I am not strict on what I eat but will not ever go anywhere near salads(yuk), breads(sourdough on the rare occasion), pasta or cereals, will eat rice but rarely.

A few personal observations>

1- Everyone's metabolism is different, no such thing as one style diet fits all.
2- Definitely crave more when eating carbs, I can understand why junk food is so addictive, even though I love the taste of meat I do not crave it, high protein/fat meals substantially more satiating.
3- Fibre is not essential(for me anyway) my bowel movements did change when on a high meat/eggs diet but not negatively, there was zero constipation but I did go a lot less(2-3 times a week) which I ascribe to my body utilizing the high quality bio available nutrients in meat/eggs which leaves a lot less waste.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

This is interesting. Do you think modern lambs, for example, might have been selectively bred?

Of course. They weren't bred to provide a higher omega 3 to omega 6 fatty acid ratio though. If anything ancient lambs would have had a higher omega 3 to omega 6 fatty acid ratio.

 

[JHF1870]

Interesting discussion, sorry in advance for the long post, I truncated it as much as possible.

I am a 66 year old male, 185cm and 74kg, I've been around that weight all my adult life apart from dropping to 62kg while undergoing chemo and radiation therapy in 2019. I have experimented a lot with my diet particularly over the last 8 years. I exercise regularly ie Pilates and Kettlebell classes, both are more aerobic than anaerobic, both classes I use high repetition low weight dumbbells and kettlebells. Also 4-5 times a week I go on long steady pace walks.. and multi day trekking a few times a year.

Never been vegan, but have experimented with what was verging on vegetarian a few of times.

Just over 2 years ago I decided I'd try Carnivore, the main factors in that decision were that meat/eggs are the most nutrient dense and most bioavailable food sources and that carbohydrates are not an essential macro nutrient(I did not know that until I researched it) whereas protein and healthy fats are.

I did try strict carnivore for a few month long stretches but couldn't and didn't want to commit to it fully. I settled on 95% Carnivore, mostly Lamb and eggs. I threw in some avocado and berries with a goat milk smoothie as a treat/snack later in the day. I did try one meal a day for a while but found 2 smaller meals worked better for me. I also have a banana around 20 minutes before the workouts I mentioned above(did them mostly fasted previously), only recently started doing that and feel like I have a bit more oomph.

I had a health scare 9 weeks ago, for no apparent reason I started feeling nauseous and fatigued, my blood pressure also dropped quite markedly(circa 85/60) which resulted in light headedness. I had multiple blood tests along with an Ultrasound, CAT Scan, followed by a PET scan, the worry was my cancer had returned however everything turned out clear apart from I have a zero pain inguinal hernia and my FSH levels were elevated substantially(33). It is still a mystery as to why I was feeling that way, only the last 2 weeks I have been getting slowly back to my normal self.

A side effect was I could not stomach heavy meals while sick so I ditched the lamb during this time and started eating less dense meals which included the likes of junk food, rice and mass produced frozen meals, also had an unusual craving for sweets which I gave in to.

I have rejigged my diet and as of today am around 80% Carnivore, my diet consists of lamb, chicken, fish, eggs, frozen avocado/berries, cherries, banana(pre workout only), Chobani genuine Greek yogurt, goat milk, pumpkin, peas, butter and salt. I take a few supplements ie. Vitamin C, Omega 3 liquid with main meal, EAA & Electrolytes drink mix pre and during workouts, and Cocoa Via flavanols in the smoothie. When I dine out I am not strict on what I eat but will not ever go anywhere near salads(yuk), breads(sourdough on the rare occasion), pasta or cereals, will eat rice but rarely.

A few personal observations>

1- Everyone's metabolism is different, no such thing as one style diet fits all.
2- Definitely crave more when eating carbs, I can understand why junk food is so addictive, even though I love the taste of meat I do not crave it, high protein/fat meals substantially more satiating.
3- Fibre is not essential(for me anyway) my bowel movements did change when on a high meat/eggs diet but not negatively, there was zero constipation but I did go a lot less(2-3 times a week) which I ascribe to my body utilizing the high quality bio available nutrients in meat/eggs which leaves a lot less waste.

Good read. It's a challenge for all of us but good to see some progress. Our metabolism changes too when we get leaner than 15% bf. Our body instinctively fights back and reduces energy output when we reduce intake.

I used to eat Gyozas and dim sims etc but when cutting saw how poor the nutrition is so eat good carbs like potatoes and rice.

I've found my morning fruit smoothies seem to keep me happy without needing to ever binge on junk. It's like my daily treat.

I usually eat dark chocolate when I'm hungry but for the last 3 months have had one sugared red bull which made me sick and other than that, no sugar except maybe some panatone in the very early stages of my weight cut.

When I went to bulking stage last time, Initially the bowell movements were incredibly difficult from the increased food and especially protein.


I wouldn't really call it 80% carnivore because then it's not really carnivore is it? You're opting for a more balanced diet.

Today I ripped open 4 blocks of regular gold chocolate, had 2 and I felt sick because it was too sweet. I love the fact that the conditioning has gotten me off junk food.

 

[raskolnikov]

I've done keto for the last 10 years with cycles of carnivore. I find carnivore too monotonous to stay on for too long.. I've settled on what is considered "ketovore". Meat-based but also include avocados, berries, natural yoghurt, greens and 90% chocolate. Benefits:

• As a type 1 diabetic more consistent blood sugar levels
• Less inflammation from CrossFit
• As an IBS/diverticulitis sufferer more regular bowel movements. I've been hospitalised numerous times over the last ten years. Every time after straying from keto/carnivore.

I've just come back from a month in Italy where I had no choice really but to abandon ketovore for a month.

My blood sugars became more uncontrolled and my diverticulitis flared up that at one stage I considered going to the emergency dept in Italy. Thankfully the next morning it had settled a bit. I had a great time but the anxiety about the possibility of ending up in hospital overseas made me quite glad to return in the end.

 

[T2B_]

I've been something close to keto-vore a lot of the time, and M Malice 's and raskolnikov 's posts especially resonate with me as the makeup of my diet is very similar.

I've never gone fully down the carnivore rabbit hole or into the communities as I haven't felt I needed to and I've quickly learned what my body will and won't tolerate, and like veganism and other camps it gets overly militant and dogmatic very quickly, but for sure my body responds much better to animal foods with some lower carb veggies and fruits. I'll still eat a slice of birthday cake and have a drink if I'm at a party or something on occasion, I may feel (physically) awful afterwards, but I return to normality and regular schedule afterwards no problem.

I hit goal weight some time ago and it's effortlessly stable now. My only vice these days when I'm out and about is those damn low carb protein bars and zero sugar sodas. Doesn't seem to impact me at all, weight or otherwise, and I suppose as far as vices go it's really not bad at all, but the stuff about artificial sweeteners etc can be very conflicting and who knows if that will have a negative impact on me in future.

 

[JHF1870]

I've been something close to keto-vore a lot of the time, and M Malice 's and raskolnikov 's posts especially resonate with me as the makeup of my diet is very similar.

I've never gone fully down the carnivore rabbit hole or into the communities as I haven't felt I needed to and I've quickly learned what my body will and won't tolerate, and like veganism and other camps it gets overly militant and dogmatic very quickly, but for sure my body responds much better to animal foods with some lower carb veggies and fruits. I'll still eat a slice of birthday cake and have a drink if I'm at a party or something on occasion, I may feel (physically) awful afterwards, but I return to normality and regular schedule afterwards no problem.

I hit goal weight some time ago and it's effortlessly stable now. My only vice these days when I'm out and about is those damn low carb protein bars and zero sugar sodas. Doesn't seem to impact me at all, weight or otherwise, and I suppose as far as vices go it's really not bad at all, but the stuff about artificial sweeteners etc can be very conflicting and who knows if that will have a negative impact on me in future.

My morning smoothies keep me in check. Fruit sugars help cravings.ive found 3 months cutting does wonders. The thought of eating pizza makes me ill.

I could go a good pasta though.

I think the 'clubs' become quite cultish and elitist

In terms of losing weight you could eat junk and lose weight.

 

[T2B_]

In terms of losing weight you could eat junk and lose weight.

You could but definitely don't recommend it. It certainly wouldn't work for me, anything too sugary and my body goes nuts, sugar rollercoaster etc you name it, could easily become a binge eater and willpower becomes an ever losing proposition.

The way I do things now for me personally I never have cravings or need all that willpower, as almost weird as that sounds. Pretty set and forget.

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

I've been something close to keto-vore a lot of the time, and M Malice 's and raskolnikov 's posts especially resonate with me as the makeup of my diet is very similar.

I've never gone fully down the carnivore rabbit hole or into the communities as I haven't felt I needed to and I've quickly learned what my body will and won't tolerate, and like veganism and other camps it gets overly militant and dogmatic very quickly, but for sure my body responds much better to animal foods with some lower carb veggies and fruits. I'll still eat a slice of birthday cake and have a drink if I'm at a party or something on occasion, I may feel (physically) awful afterwards, but I return to normality and regular schedule afterwards no problem.

I hit goal weight some time ago and it's effortlessly stable now. My only vice these days when I'm out and about is those damn low carb protein bars and zero sugar sodas. Doesn't seem to impact me at all, weight or otherwise, and I suppose as far as vices go it's really not bad at all, but the stuff about artificial sweeteners etc can be very conflicting and who knows if that will have a negative impact on me in future.

What about pizza? Do you still eat pizza!!!

 

[T2B_]

What about pizza? Do you still eat pizza!!!

No, only because like pasta, bread or anything that's very dense makeup of most grains, it'll cause me lots of stomach pain, brain fog and just generally feeling crappy. I'll sometimes make myself a deconstructed kind of pizza or make a base using alternatives like cloud or avocado bread. Not a perfect substitute but a lot less unpleasant for me.

 

[Jugada]

I've been something close to keto-vore a lot of the time, and M Malice 's and raskolnikov 's posts especially resonate with me as the makeup of my diet is very similar.

I've never gone fully down the carnivore rabbit hole or into the communities as I haven't felt I needed to and I've quickly learned what my body will and won't tolerate, and like veganism and other camps it gets overly militant and dogmatic very quickly, but for sure my body responds much better to animal foods with some lower carb veggies and fruits. I'll still eat a slice of birthday cake and have a drink if I'm at a party or something on occasion, I may feel (physically) awful afterwards, but I return to normality and regular schedule afterwards no problem.

I hit goal weight some time ago and it's effortlessly stable now. My only vice these days when I'm out and about is those damn low carb protein bars and zero sugar sodas. Doesn't seem to impact me at all, weight or otherwise, and I suppose as far as vices go it's really not bad at all, but the stuff about artificial sweeteners etc can be very conflicting and who knows if that will have a negative impact on me in future.

I wouldn't be concerned about artificial sweeteners. There are overwhelming amounts of credible studies showing it is fine. Just have to ignore the baseless fear mongering content that plenty love to put out

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

I wouldn't be concerned about artificial sweeteners. There are overwhelming amounts of credible studies showing it is fine. Just have to ignore the baseless fear mongering content that plenty love to put out

My 20 yo stepdaughter insists on drinking that crap (mainly Coke Zero) thinking she will lose weight. She's been drinking it for 6 months and has actually gained about 7 kg. I've told her that when you drink something sweet your body expects a decent hit of calories. When they don't eventuate I think it makes you hungry and you eat more. She's starting to realise it hasn't helped her now and is drinking a lot more water. No good for your microbiome apparently either.

 

[Jugada]

My 20 yo stepdaughter insists on drinking that crap (mainly Coke Zero) thinking she will lose weight. She's been drinking it for 6 months and has actually gained about 7 kg. I've told her that when you drink something sweet your body expects a decent hit of calories. When they don't eventuate I think it makes you hungry and you eat more. She's starting to realise it hasn't helped her now and is drinking a lot more water. No good for your microbiome apparently either.

The weight gain has nothing to do with the coke zero. Just drinking that alone isn't going to make you lose weight but if you are switching from sugar drinks to zero drinks it will be hugely beneficial

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

The weight gain has nothing to do with the coke zero. Just drinking that alone isn't going to make you lose weight but if you are switching from sugar drinks to zero drinks it will be hugely beneficial

 

[Jugada]

I'll repeat mate. The diet coke is not the thing that causes anyone to gain weight. You are just quoting nonsense click bait that even in the links they can't specifically correlate the artificial sweeteners as the problem

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]

I'll repeat mate. The diet coke is not the thing that causes anyone to gain weight. You are just quoting nonsense click bait that even in the links they can't specifically correlate the artificial sweeteners as the problem

So quick to dismiss an article written by a PhD who worked for years as a Research Scientist at a leading Adelaide hospital and the findings of a study involving 400,000 participants published by the Canadian Medical Association. I presume you are doing so on the basis of them being observational and not blinded. Presumably you won't be so quick to dismiss blinded, longitudinal studies?

 

[JHF1870]

I'll repeat mate. The diet coke is not the thing that causes anyone to gain weight. You are just quoting nonsense click bait that even in the links they can't specifically correlate the artificial sweeteners as the problem

I have read those articles before but not sure if peer reviewed. I drink zero sugar energy drinks all the time and anecdotally I don't seem to struggle with cravings at all. I personally haven't felt like drinking more zero sugar drinks have lead to a spike in food intake.

I've noticed for me it's things like cheese that can bring about increase in intake once I get a taste.

 

[M Malice]

You could but definitely don't recommend it. It certainly wouldn't work for me, anything too sugary and my body goes nuts, sugar rollercoaster etc you name it, could easily become a binge eater and willpower becomes an ever losing proposition.

The way I do things now for me personally I never have cravings or need all that willpower, as almost weird as that sounds. Pretty set and forget.

I'm quite similar, if I eat too many carbs I do not get satiated and find it very difficult to stop eating, I also feel less clear in the head and less hale and hearty, which is my usual state when predominately eating protein and fats.

Note- As I posted earlier I do eat a small amount of "healthy" carbs ie fruit/vegetables.

 

[T2B_]

I'm quite similar, if I eat too many carbs I do not get satiated and find it very difficult to stop eating, I also feel less clear in the head and less hale and hearty, which is my usual state when predominately eating protein and fats.

Note- As I posted earlier I do eat a small amount of "healthy" carbs ie fruit/vegetables.

Yeah exactly, that's basically me too.

Which is interesting regarding the stuff about artificial sweeteners etc above, as they don't seem to increase my appetite like actual sugar does. I haven't looked deep into the studies but I wonder if it's a case of correlations giving off the wrong vibe, like probably a lot of people surveyed are the ones that go to McDonald's and get a massive meal haul all to themselves, but also get a diet Coke lol.

 

[Andre]

I'll repeat mate. The diet coke is not the thing that causes anyone to gain weight. You are just quoting nonsense click bait that even in the links they can't specifically correlate the artificial sweeteners as the problem

Whose most of their subjects? Obese people who just switch to Diet Coke? I'd guess there'd be a big 'I went to the gym, so I can have a Big Mac now!' effect there (trading burning 200 or 300 calories for a thousand in). If you're disciplined then artificial sweeteners are great. When I'm HCLF and lower calories during spring / summer, Pepsi Max is great to get something in, that appeals to the taste buds in the way water obviously doesn't, without eating. If I had an eating disorder, I doubt Pepsi Max vs. Pepsi would move the needle at all, and like the studies just as likely to be a problem, with the built in excuse.

There's no magic bullet (unless you want to count Ozempic and the like, which aren't without side effects, short and it appears long term) for weight loss that works for all.

 

[M Malice]

Whose most of their subjects? Obese people who just switch to Diet Coke? I'd guess there'd be a big 'I went to the gym, so I can have a Big Mac now!' effect there (trading burning 200 or 300 calories for a thousand in). If you're disciplined then artificial sweeteners are great. When I'm HCLF and lower calories during spring / summer, Pepsi Max is great to get something in, that appeals to the taste buds in the way water obviously doesn't, without eating. If I had an eating disorder, I doubt Pepsi Max vs. Pepsi would move the needle at all, and like the studies just as likely to be a problem, with the built in excuse.

There's no magic bullet (unless you want to count Ozempic and the like, which aren't without side effects, short and it appears long term) for weight loss that works for all.

Yes, I have recently started drinking Remedy Sodaly no sugar soft drinks as a treat, 1 250ml can every day or 2, very tasty BTW, they also have a small amount of ACV.


No way that puts on weight for me however from a few overweight people I know the I just had a diet drink that means I can eat whatever the F I want mindset is a real factor. I know an overweight couple who will have zero coke with their rum but have a dozen rum and cokes in a sitting, all while also gorging on packets of chips and/or nuts. But yer we are having the zero coke for our health LOL!

 

[HitTheNailOnTheHead]