No Opposition Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

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kelvin_sheedy

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How much courage, heart and leadership has Hird shown over this whole thing. He has been smashed by the wolves and the rats who gnaw on the edge but he keeps his head high and goes about his business.

This is the guy that we need leading our club. He sets a great example of never giving up & standing by your principles. As a player, supporter and fan you cannot but admire the fact that he is still standing and fighting. What a great trait to have and pass on to a group of players.

Never been so certain that we need to keep him on as coach regardless of what the AFL, the media or anyone of those dirty rats think.
 

rines

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I understand their was a lot to process in Caro's latest, and I understand that some want the phrase 'knifed in the back' banned. However read this and explain exactly how it isn't, if true, an old fashioned knifing?

"it seems inexplicable that he would tell Hird just hours before the Crichton Medal count that he supported his decision to lodge his appeal and then proceed to chop him off at the knees by applying for his job before the Essendon faithful."

Now I raise this because this is the same version I heard at the time.. hence why I immediately thought it was a knife in the back. I understand that there are more lies than truth out there.. but when I start hearing the same version of a story through 2-3 independently different sources.. it starts to reverberate.

Let us be clear: Thompson privately supports Hird to appeal, knowing it may lead to his dismissal. Thompson tells the club his manager has spoken to Gold Coast. Thompson tells the club that they can't announce he is staying (which was the plan) as he has come to the conclusion "Senior Job or I walk". Thompson makes his 'public job interview' at the Medal Count.

Yep.. nothing to see here.. damn that Hird for making it all about himself. Lucky we can rely on his MENTOR to steer the ship to safety. :rolleyes:
 

Jab

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I love it how selective we are with the media. They say something that we disagree with and they're vultures. Say something that we agree with or that fits our line of thinking and we take it to the bank as fact to support our argument.

If Caro really does hate Hird and wants him to be sacked, do we really think that she wouldn't twist a few words or paint her own slant on whatever minor discussion that she has had?
 

rines

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I love it how selective we are with the media. They say something that we disagree with and they're vultures. Say something that we agree with or that fits our line of thinking and we take it to the bank as fact to support our argument.

If Caro really does hate Hird and wants him to be sacked, do we really think that she wouldn't twist a few words or paint her own slant on whatever minor discussion that she has had?
I actually put zero stock in what she says.. except that I heard a very similar story on Wednesday night too (and I posted that in here at the time)... so who knows?

As to the article.. I think it is a lot of crap.. I just find it interesting because it shows exactly what we can expect if the club appoints Thompson..

All I was suggesting is that it won't "end" if we sack Hird.. Caro will go on hating until the whole club burns.

Hence why I am clearly in the "fine if you want to sack Hird, maybe it is best.. but IF you sack Hird.. then clear both of them out.. in fact clear the whole lot of them out and start again.
 
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I love it how selective we are with the media. They say something that we disagree with and they're vultures. Say something that we agree with or that fits our line of thinking and we take it to the bank as fact to support our argument.

If Caro really does hate Hird and wants him to be sacked, do we really think that she wouldn't twist a few words or paint her own slant on whatever minor discussion that she has had?
Being selective is not confined to the media only.
If someone disagrees with us sees that someone being referred to as an idiot or worse.
It is my opinion that a lot of the narrative around this saga has been very unbalanced, in that it's been very negative and vitriolic in its delivery.
I don't and I'm sure others here don't expect everyone to agree with us but I would like to hear a bit more balance around the 'Hird is the architect of destruction' rhetoric
 

Jab

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Caro is trying to get a dog in the fight again, she hasn't had a scoop on this since big AD left and is clutching at straws. Her latest efforts to "break news" was when everyone thought that Hird was going to be sacked and she went with it as fact.

I personally don't believe that either Hird or Thompson would play the media against the other.
 

rines

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Caro is trying to get a dog in the fight again, she hasn't had a scoop on this since big AD left and is clutching at straws. Her latest efforts to "break news" was when everyone thought that Hird was going to be sacked and she went with it as fact.

I personally don't believe that either Hird or Thompson would play the media against the other.
No.. I don't either.

I think it is likely that people 'around' the two men may be leaking.. and the AFL is pushing an agenda.. but I would be really surprised if either man was directly responsible for any of the crap coming out.

FWIW.. I think Caro jumped early.. but every account was that Hird has been sacked.. and will be officially sacked on Monday.. so she may well be right that it was a 'timing' issue.

Who really knows.. but surely we can all agree the club has handled this appallingly no matter what happens from here???
 

Jab

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Being selective is not confined to the media only.
If someone disagrees with us sees that someone being referred to as an idiot or worse.
It is my opinion that a lot of the narrative around this saga has been very unbalanced, in that it's been very negative and vitriolic in its delivery.
I don't and I'm sure others here don't expect everyone to agree with us but I would like to hear a bit more balance around the 'Hird is the architect of destruction' rhetoric
People are probably worried that you will throw a radio at them. :p


Some people can look at the result they want and then search for information to support it. Unfortunately, I don't feel like we have had too much reliable information to base too much on, hence why I still don't know what to believe. That's my opinion, it doesn't mean that I'm right and it might even mean that I'm too gutless to pick a side. Who knows.

To answer your last question to me, rines, yes I do think that the club/board hasn't covered itself in glory with how they have dealt with this.
 

rines

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Being selective is not confined to the media only.
If someone disagrees with us sees that someone being referred to as an idiot or worse.
It is my opinion that a lot of the narrative around this saga has been very unbalanced, in that it's been very negative and vitriolic in its delivery.
I don't and I'm sure others here don't expect everyone to agree with us but I would like to hear a bit more balance around the 'Hird is the architect of destruction' rhetoric
Hard to put the emotion genie back in the bottle though.

Having had time to reflect on Wednesday night and the 72 hours that followed.. it shows that our club is a powder keg really. I would imagine that it isn't just supporters ready to 'fire the wagons' either.. would be easy to imagine that staff/players/members would all have some form of alliance.. maybe not as strong.. but who knows.

When you have such a powerful issue that has pushed us to all be emotionally invested in the outcome (ASADA stuff in general not just the coaching thing).. then it is near impossible to think that we could all 'lay down arms' from here in.

I think this board showed a snapshot of the underlying issue at the club: How many pro-Thompson posters were in here gloating on Wednesday night? How quick were they to hoist the victory flag? This inevitably caused the equal and opposite reaction from pro-Hird posters (myself included) and thus it began.

It was the first time I found myself wondering how this club heals from here. Can pro-Thompson supporters ever trust in Hird again? Will they ever be able to celebrate success with him at the helm? Will they be waiting next year and the year after for any mistake to try and tear him down? By EXACTLY the same token, can pro-Hird supporters ever let go of their anger? Would they ever be able to see Thompson as anything other than a snake in the grass? Would they ever forgive the club?

I'm not saying my behaviour isn't the prime example of this.. but it is not the only example.. and it is not just 'one side' of this divide that is behaving badly either.

The bigger question is: How can we heal?

For the first time since this started, I am beginning to feel like the only way to heal is to clean house. Not because I believe Hird is guilty of anything much.. and certainly not because it is fair.. but because maybe it has to happen to put out this fire. Of course, I still am desperately hoping that the two men at the heart of this, two men I admire and respect, will actually be the ones to show us leadership. I'm still hoping they will be the ones to bring their 'cults' to the table for peace talks. If one or both of them can't end this amicably.. then I fear our club will be divided for quite some time yet.
 

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People are probably worried that you will throw a radio at them. :p


Some people can look at the result they want and then search for information to support it. Unfortunately, I don't feel like we have had too much reliable information to base too much on, hence why I still don't know what to believe. That's my opinion, it doesn't mean that I'm right and it might even mean that I'm too gutless to pick a side. Who knows.

To answer your last question to me, rines, yes I do think that the club/board hasn't covered itself in glory with how they have dealt with this.
History has shown its not hard to manufacture evidence to suit a narrative and that's what we've seen here.
Realistically to pick sides one needs to appreciate and understand both sides I don't therefore I haven't.
What does upset me though is the negative spin from the opinion writers.
 

rines

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Reporters don't wait for "fact". They put a few things together, speak to who they know and have a guess from there.

But Hird is gone. Unless he withdraws appeal, which he wont
Hmm.. sad but true.

Still begs the question.. what the hell happens if he wins the appeal? Does he come back?
 

expires

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I would imagine Thompson told Hird that he was going to publicly make him self available if needed.

I am hoping that Hird can end up as coach. With that not being straight forward, can't see that any of the club, Hird or Thompson being out of step with doing the right thing.

It'll all sort out.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Hmm.. sad but true.

Still begs the question.. what the hell happens if he wins the appeal? Does he come back?
He'll use the win to go full ****** at ASADA, the AFL and anybody else, probably defamation.

But the "evidence" won't be set aside and SCNs will just be reissued, so it'll make no difference there.

Go for it Hirdy... but you. can't. do. it. as. coach.
 

rines

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He'll use the win to go full ****** at ASADA, the AFL and anybody else, probably defamation.

But the "evidence" won't be set aside and SCNs will just be reissued, so it'll make no difference there.

Go for it Hirdy... but you. can't. do. it. as. coach.
So he proves a government agency acted illegally and outside their powers... which would open the door for him to, rightly, go against the other agencies that have ruined his career and reputation based on lies and an ILLEGAL investigation...

But he still can't coach our team because it would be too upsetting for us??

I can assure you now, despite ASADA's belief.. they would not just be able 're-issue' the notices.. that is partly why Hird is appealing.. I believe also that it was a fundamentally flaw in Middletons reasoning.. essentially if those interviews were proposed, arranged and conducted in an illegal manner.. then you can't use ANYTHING that was said in them.. whether it was said to the AFL or recorded by the AFL or by ASADA.

It would be like the Federal Police arranging an interview with an Australian prisoner on behalf of the CIA (who are not allowed to interview Australian prisoners on Australian soil).. and then sitting in the back of the room while CIA used 'enhanced interrogations techniques' (which are not allowed in Australia) to gain information. The Federal Police then seek a conviction for the crimes 'confessed' during that interview.

If the prisoner went to court.. and the judge finds that the Federal Police acted 'outside their powers' to arrange the interrogation in the first place, and then acted unlawfully by allowing torture.. then it would order the 'confession' couldn't be used.

It would be farcical (and this is what Middleton is suggesting) if the Federal Police said "yeah maybe the CIA were outside our powers to give us the interview, but even if you declare that investigation illegal, we will just ask the CIA for their copy of the transcripts tomorrow and re-issue our charges.

That is where this becomes a fundamental question of Federal Law and statutory operation. It isn't about drugs or Hird or what happened at EFC.. it is about whether a Government agency can use the 'powers of another' to circumvent their own statutory restrictions. If the court agrees they can, then it does make it interesting for all athletes moving forward.

As I have repeatedly said, I personally wouldn't appeal.. but I can understand the legal reasons behind the appeal.
 

rines

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Anyone else think there is a chance that the AFL has 'assured' EFC that even if the players come to tribunal they will be found not guilty? Hence why the club should settle with Robinson, not appeal and just 'flow'..

Perhaps the AFL are thinking if the Robinson case is over.. the court case is over.. ASADA issue SCN's.. Players request they go straight to tribunal.. found not guilty.. free to play on. ASADA can't appeal because their case is so weak.

It means this could be wrapped up in a month.. no more story?

It seems the quickest way out of the mess from the AFL's point of view..
 

fishardansin

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He'll use the win to go full ****** at ASADA, the AFL and anybody else, probably defamation.

But the "evidence" won't be set aside and SCNs will just be reissued, so it'll make no difference there.

Go for it Hirdy... but you. can't. do. it. as. coach.
Would you accept if the club + Thompson had a handshake agreement with Hird that Thompson could coach the club while it may still feel capable of pushing top 4 and challenging if we tighten a few things on the list and get ASADA dealt with. During those next few years Hird can go back to Gemba on a part time basis and go full retired (Borat accent) and then return to the club as a coach through our next rebuild when Watson and Goddard go.

We saw Caro already start on Thompson, who was going to be her initial target if you read the first articles she wrote on the matter but she clearly had her mind changed by whoever was feeding her. Perhaps Hird going nuts, including suing her for a few defamation cases, will keep the attention away from the club and the players. He can continue to draw fire and put a number of the bottom feeders out there on the defensive as well.

I agree with you this is impossible as coach. Unshackled from AFL agreements he can make that full offensive in the press where he speaks openly and names people and discusses their role in events. However, I don't see why their can't be a gentleman's agreement on this re him returning. Obviously on the proviso he wins the public relation battle, which I think he could if unshackled.
 

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Anyone else think there is a chance that the AFL has 'assured' EFC that even if the players come to tribunal they will be found not guilty? Hence why the club should settle with Robinson, not appeal and just 'flow'..

Perhaps the AFL are thinking if the Robinson case is over.. the court case is over.. ASADA issue SCN's.. Players request they go straight to tribunal.. found not guilty.. free to play on. ASADA can't appeal because their case is so weak.

It means this could be wrapped up in a month.. no more story?

It seems the quickest way out of the mess from the AFL's point of view..
Yes.

Also I think you're dead wrong about ASADA with the evidence. If the AFL can force the players to answer their questions due to contractual law and ASADA can enforce the release of those documents to them then the case in the Federal court is now useless. This is what will happen if the interviews are knocked out. The only way out of answering those questions is if the players resign from the AFL, or challenge the AFL's right to have them.

I think that this is something the AFLPA should look at. Should they demand the removal of that clause from the contract? Because while a clause like that may be fair in an industry where there are plenty of different agencies one could work for it is not the case for the AFL. A player/coach can not simply resign from the AFL and expect to find a similar position elsewhere, unless your name is Israel Falou!!

The other alternative is that the contracts be with the clubs, not the AFL, and players can then have the right to refuse to play for any club that has clauses in their contracts they do not want.
 

Smokin

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Anyone else think there is a chance that the AFL has 'assured' EFC that even if the players come to tribunal they will be found not guilty? Hence why the club should settle with Robinson, not appeal and just 'flow'..
.
absolutely, there is little doubt in my mind the senior EFC figures are in cahoots with the AFL. Very little doubt at all.

All 3 parties want this to go away, thing is nobody wants to lose face over anything. It will be managed, agreed upon and ended. Just like they had originally planned.
 

Bunk Moreland

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So he proves a government agency acted illegally and outside their powers... which would open the door for him to, rightly, go against the other agencies that have ruined his career and reputation based on lies and an ILLEGAL investigation...

But he still can't coach our team because it would be too upsetting for us??

I can assure you now, despite ASADA's belief.. they would not just be able 're-issue' the notices.. that is partly why Hird is appealing.. I believe also that it was a fundamentally flaw in Middletons reasoning.. essentially if those interviews were proposed, arranged and conducted in an illegal manner.. then you can't use ANYTHING that was said in them.. whether it was said to the AFL or recorded by the AFL or by ASADA.

It would be like the Federal Police arranging an interview with an Australian prisoner on behalf of the CIA (who are not allowed to interview Australian prisoners on Australian soil).. and then sitting in the back of the room while CIA used 'enhanced interrogations techniques' (which are not allowed in Australia) to gain information. The Federal Police then seek a conviction for the crimes 'confessed' during that interview.

If the prisoner went to court.. and the judge finds that the Federal Police acted 'outside their powers' to arrange the interrogation in the first place, and then acted unlawfully by allowing torture.. then it would order the 'confession' couldn't be used.

It would be farcical (and this is what Middleton is suggesting) if the Federal Police said "yeah maybe the CIA were outside our powers to give us the interview, but even if you declare that investigation illegal, we will just ask the CIA for their copy of the transcripts tomorrow and re-issue our charges.

That is where this becomes a fundamental question of Federal Law and statutory operation. It isn't about drugs or Hird or what happened at EFC.. it is about whether a Government agency can use the 'powers of another' to circumvent their own statutory restrictions. If the court agrees they can, then it does make it interesting for all athletes moving forward.

As I have repeatedly said, I personally wouldn't appeal.. but I can understand the legal reasons behind the appeal.
No, he can't coach us because it might affect the players strategy in ways we don't know yet, it's not their chosen course, and they'll get the shits.

It is not tenable for him to go to war with the AFL legally whilst he's coaching us, the AFL have to much scope to hurt us as a club - they'll either do that, or use the threat of it to force him to drop any action. It's exactly what happened 12 months ago when we lodged action.

He'll then drop the action, and it'll **** him and his fight as well. There will be no winners.

I see no legal reason why you'd appeal. I'm aware of all the arguments, it's why we went to court in the first place, and Middleton comprehensively squashed them all. And also said if he hadn't of, he'd have used his discretion to make our win meaningless anyway.

I can only think that Hird must have some absolute grenades to throw. If that's the case, I want him to throw them, but not as our coach. Because the AFL ran this investigation, so some of them will land at their feet, which means blowback for our club and players. We've had enough damage, we need to be about winning football games again.

If he has no grenades, this appeal is just desperation.
 

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No, he can't coach us because it might affect the players strategy in ways we don't know yet, it's not their chosen course, and they'll get the shits.

It is not tenable for him to go to war with the AFL legally whilst he's coaching us, the AFL have to much scope to hurt us as a club - they'll either do that, or use the threat of it to force him to drop any action. It's exactly what happened 12 months ago when we lodged action.

He'll then drop the action, and it'll **** him and his fight as well. There will be no winners.

I see no legal reason why you'd appeal. I'm aware of all the arguments, it's why we went to court in the first place, and Middleton comprehensively squashed them all. And also said if he hadn't of, he'd have used his discretion to make our win meaningless anyway.

I can only think that Hird must have some absolute grenades to throw. If that's the case, I want him to throw them, but not as our coach. Because the AFL ran this investigation, so some of them will land at their feet, which means blowback for our club and players. We've had enough damage, we need to be about winning football games again.

If he has no grenades, this appeal is just desperation.
I don't think there are any more grenades. I'm pretty sure he couldn't use them in an appeal anyway as it'd have to be soley about what Middleton got wrong in their eyes.

I agree with you that Hird can't do it as coach, but I think there is a legal precedent that he should fight this on. That is contractual law over riding statutory law. It's sad that all of this has happened to Hird but that's the way the cookie crumbles. He has had many challenges in his life but over all he's a very blessed man and I'm sure he can see that. He probably will never have the coaching career he hoped he could but he can go back to Gemba so he can afford to fight out this battle which is probably important for Australian law going forward.
 

Bunk Moreland

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Would you accept if the club + Thompson had a handshake agreement with Hird that Thompson could coach the club while it may still feel capable of pushing top 4 and challenging if we tighten a few things on the list and get ASADA dealt with. During those next few years Hird can go back to Gemba on a part time basis and go full retired (Borat accent) and then return to the club as a coach through our next rebuild when Watson and Goddard go.

We saw Caro already start on Thompson, who was going to be her initial target if you read the first articles she wrote on the matter but she clearly had her mind changed by whoever was feeding her. Perhaps Hird going nuts, including suing her for a few defamation cases, will keep the attention away from the club and the players. He can continue to draw fire and put a number of the bottom feeders out there on the defensive as well.

I agree with you this is impossible as coach. Unshackled from AFL agreements he can make that full offensive in the press where he speaks openly and names people and discusses their role in events. However, I don't see why their can't be a gentleman's agreement on this re him returning. Obviously on the proviso he wins the public relation battle, which I think he could if unshackled.
Hird is always welcome at EFC for mine but there's absolutely no guarantee of future roles for anybody. You can't make calls on the distant future now.

I couldn't give a **** what Caro writes or says, despite what many think she's not a cause she's a symptom, the reason this continues to get media attention is because the process is still ongoing, not because they wrote about it. Once the players cases are done she'll throw around the odd snipe like she does with James Brayshaw but will largely just move onto the next soap opera.

The fault for this lies at the feet of the club for allowing the ridiculous unchecked situation to happen in the first place, the federal govt for hijacking it for failed political gain, and ASADA for being utterly incompetent in both their day job and this investigation and thus taking so many years . The media are just parrots, their input doesn't start or dictate anything.
 
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