No Opposition Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

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The Prosecutor

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So ASADA 'won't be rushed'... good.. cause they have only had 18 months to get their shit together.. would hate for them to feel pressured.

Finding it very hard to believe that the 'new' SCN's aren't ready to go.. considering they have had 6 months to prepared them...!

More stalling and delays.. basically ASADA making sure that any suspensions would be served during a season.. so I'm guessing the will call an ADRVP on March 30 and not a day before...!!

Dank is still waiting for his ADRVP and his SCN was issued in May iirc!

The whole thing is a sick, twisted joke.

I can't believe that we are wasting millions of tax payers dollars to have a near two year investigation into whether 34 AFL players were duped into inadvertently taking one dose of TB4 to play in a private sporting competition in 2012...

Glad we kick all those disabled people off welfare though.. tough times and all...
Or, you know, they're waiting for Hird's appeals to be exhausted like they said from the get go.

As for Dank, he didn't end up contesting his ADRVP and as such has been placed on the register of findings as confirmed by McDevitt back in August.
 

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rines

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Or, you know, they're waiting for Hird's appeals to be exhausted like they said from the get go.

As for Dank, he didn't end up contesting his ADRVP and as such has been placed on the register of findings as confirmed by McDevitt back in August.

Considering that ASADA stated it wouldn't effect it, the players don't want it stalled etc etc.. it seems odd that ASADA are now backtracking.

Almost like they want to apply pressure to Hird to discontinue his appeal, like trying to get a later hearing date and thus hoping the club would fire him in the meantime..

And can we not pretend ASADA have been 'rushing' through any step of this.. like ever.

Hirds appeal has zero to do with it.. they are just struggling to do 'individual' notices to athletes (which they should have done in the first place BTW) and put evidence that makes sense.

Something tells me that a supply chain of:
Charters told us that Dank requested TB4 and he ordered that from China, but a large shipment never arrived. Instead a small shipment of some of the components arrive and that was delivered it to Alavi. Alavi told us that it wasn't really labelled as anything other than 'Thymosin' and he didn't test it properly and Dank picked it up and then never saw it again. At some point after that, the substance which may, or may not have been TB4 may, or may not, have been at the EFC and it may, or may not, have been given to you after you were told you may, or may not, be getting Thymomodulin as part of a planned supplement program. Further you agreed in an interview that Thymosin 'sounded familiar'.

Isn't really going to thrill the players legal team.
 

rines

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rines

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Caroline Wilson getting ready for her next anti-Hird article:
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/test-only--live-article-test-20141013-115fqz.html

Just need to replace 'fake body' with:
Disgraced coach James Hird today spoke with new recruit James Gwilt. The star ex-St Kilda player was left gaping as the aura of Hird left him unable to speak fluently except in tongues. It is understand that Hird, after serving a 12 months suspension for his role in the supplements saga, is still keen to pursue his selfish, and misguided, court battle against ASADA even though doing so will delay the fresh release of SCN's against 34 current and ex Essendon players.

In 2012, when Hird oversaw the controversial and dangerous program, it is believed that Bombers players were routinely subjected to an experimental environment. The health risks of the program are still unknown and earlier this week The Age was exclusively able to reveal that DHS is currently investigating if Hird can be charged with endangering an infant after wantaway player Patrick Ryder expressed concerns about the health of his unborn child. It is understood that whilst the child appears healthy and has been 'cleared' by a number of medical experts, this will not change the fact that it may have been exposed to Hirds aura too young. The child is due to be enrolled in the controversial 'James Hird Academy' which bears the name of the disgraced former player Hird. It is suggested there have been moves at board level to rename the program the in the wake of the scandal. Despite this, Hird remains delusional and unrepentant in his role as chief architect of the biggest doping program the world has seen.
 

Duckworth

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Considering that ASADA stated it wouldn't effect it, the players don't want it stalled etc etc.. it seems odd that ASADA are now backtracking.

Almost like they want to apply pressure to Hird to discontinue his appeal, like trying to get a later hearing date and thus hoping the club would fire him in the meantime..

And can we not pretend ASADA have been 'rushing' through any step of this.. like ever.

Hirds appeal has zero to do with it.. they are just struggling to do 'individual' notices to athletes (which they should have done in the first place BTW) and put evidence that makes sense.

Something tells me that a supply chain of:
Charters told us that Dank requested TB4 and he ordered that from China, but a large shipment never arrived. Instead a small shipment of some of the components arrive and that was delivered it to Alavi. Alavi told us that it wasn't really labelled as anything other than 'Thymosin' and he didn't test it properly and Dank picked it up and then never saw it again. At some point after that, the substance which may, or may not have been TB4 may, or may not, have been at the EFC and it may, or may not, have been given to you after you were told you may, or may not, be getting Thymomodulin as part of a planned supplement program. Further you agreed in an interview that Thymosin 'sounded familiar'.

Isn't really going to thrill the players legal team.
The massive hole in the Charters text and emails, is Dank doesn't mention Essendon. The story unravels pretty quickly after that.
 

AsIfYouCare

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Or, you know, they're waiting for Hird's appeals to be exhausted like they said from the get go.
Well, ASADA is not saying that now (if they ever were). Direct quote from ASADA statement yesterday ""The date set for the Federal Court appeal hearing will not affect ASADA issuing show cause notices."

P.S. Their story has fewer vials of TB4 than there were players being injected. Unless ASADA can show WHICH players were injected, a 'comfortable satisfaction' is not possible.
 

cymarak

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Not sure if this has been covered but what happens if Hird is successful in his appeal ?
IF he wins:

Best case scenario = SCNs invalidated / permanently withdrawn, investigation permanently stopped, nothing more to see here, move along everybody and get back to playing football. Media go nuts writing stories about getting off on technicalities.

Worst case scenario = ASADA given an official telling off, but SCN / ADRVP process continues on its merry way. Next stop - ADRVP.
 

Duckworth

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IF he wins:

Best case scenario = SCNs invalidated / permanently withdrawn, investigation permanently stopped, nothing more to see here, move along everybody and get back to playing football. Media go nuts writing stories about getting off on technicalities.

Worst case scenario = ASADA given an official telling off, but SCN / ADRVP process continues on its merry way. Next stop - ADRVP.
The best case scenario also includes a ruling on the illegal use of the interim report by the AFL, and a returning of draft picks and fine.
 

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fishardansin

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The massive hole in the Charters text and emails, is Dank doesn't mention Essendon. The story unravels pretty quickly after that.
.... and TB4 is recommended for doses of 5ml. There were 26 5ml vials in all.

All in all there is no way a guilty verdict will be delivered to any of these boys ... but lets face it the club ran a program where Dank was ordering the goods himself and picking it up himself and then administering them himself. I find it amazing that he was forced to pass an order to Robinson, who would then pass the order to Reid. Reid could then peruse the list and either send it back to Robinson with explanation as to why certain supplements were not to be on the menu or he could then send it to a department head who would order the products, then give them to Reid who would give them to Robinson.

I get very shirty with the health claims. The sound as baseless as anti-GMO rubbish. However, there was the potential for players to receive up to 2 year bans so as a matter of precaution there should have been a supply chain like that.

I think ASADA know there is not chance but want the case highlighted and this is the best way for them to get the evidence out there.
 

cymarak

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The best case scenario also includes a ruling on the illegal use of the interim report by the AFL, and a returning of draft picks and fine.
The AFL aren't a party to the court case AFAIK - I'm not sure how they could be potentially forced to do anything (e.g. 'return' draft picks) by the courts ?
 

FBDonkey

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The best case scenario also includes a ruling on the illegal use of the interim report by the AFL, and a returning of draft picks and fine.
Im pretty sure that Hird decided not to appeal against the use of the interim report and just focussed on the ultra vires part of the investigation
 

rines

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The massive hole in the Charters text and emails, is Dank doesn't mention Essendon. The story unravels pretty quickly after that.
Agree and have done for 12+ months.. there is simply no evidence available in the public (and most of it appears to be 'out' anyway) that suggests that ASADA can even put TB4 at EFC.. let alone in a needle for a specific player.

I find it incredible that this farce has gone on this long.
 

Run and carry

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The AFL tribunal's "comfortable satisfaction" standard of proof doesn't fill me with confidence tbh. Are there precise requirements for this standard of proof? The term just sounds a bit subjective and flaky and a long way from "beyond reasonable doubt" that's all.
 

rines

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The AFL tribunal's "comfortable satisfaction" standard of proof doesn't fill me with confidence tbh. Are there precise requirements for this standard of proof? The term just sounds a bit subjective and flaky and a long way from "beyond reasonable doubt" that's all.
Well if they get it wrong it can be appealed to CAS.

CAS have consistently shown they required a burden 'very close to , if not to, beyond doubt'...

Comfortable satisfaction isn't 51% sure.. it is closer to 90-95% sure it happened.. maybe a smidge more.. but you wouldn't be able to swear 100% it absolutely happened.

Remembering it is an independent panel that would be appointed just for this case..
 

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Agree and have done for 12+ months.. there is simply no evidence available in the public (and most of it appears to be 'out' anyway) that suggests that ASADA can even put TB4 at EFC.. let alone in a needle for a specific player.

I find it incredible that this farce has gone on this long.
This image captured of a vehicle in the recovery pool at Windy Hill has me very concerned.



Clearly TB4 was on site at EFC.
 

cymarak

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The AFL tribunal's "comfortable satisfaction" standard of proof doesn't fill me with confidence tbh. Are there precise requirements for this standard of proof? The term just sounds a bit subjective and flaky and a long way from "beyond reasonable doubt" that's all.
There are no precise requirements for 'comfortable satisfaction', and I don't think there could be.

There's no way to objectively measure probability in these sorts of scenarios, so even if there were some specified confidence level required - e.g. minimum 75% probability - how on earth do you actually work out what the actual number is ? In other words, if ASADA has to 'get' 75%+ to get a conviction, how does the tribunal look at the evidence and work out what percentage ASADA has actually got ?

I don't know that there are any precise requirements for 'beyond reasonable doubt' either - I think the principle is just that each juror / judge decides for themselves what that means in reality.

It's a subjective area, and there's no way around it.
 

rines

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There are no precise requirements for 'comfortable satisfaction', and I don't think there could be.

There's no way to objectively measure probability in these sorts of scenarios, so even if there were some specified confidence level required - e.g. minimum 75% probability - how on earth do you actually work out what the actual number is ? In other words, if ASADA has to 'get' 75%+ to get a conviction, how does the tribunal look at the evidence and work out what percentage ASADA has actually got ?

I don't know that there are any precise requirements for 'beyond reasonable doubt' either - I think the principle is just that each juror / judge decides for themselves what that means in reality.

It's a subjective area, and there's no way around it.
Yeah.. tricky in criminal law vs contract law vs civil law too..

But I do know that you need a case that doesn't even one 'maybe potentially'.. let alone having the 3-4 that ASADA seem to.
 

60sbomber

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The massive hole in the Charters text and emails, is Dank doesn't mention Essendon. The story unravels pretty quickly after that.
ASADA would have pored over every email and text hoping to find some reference to Essendon. The fact that it isn't there says a lot. Our lawyers at the tribunal should stress this.
 

Run and carry

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There are no precise requirements for 'comfortable satisfaction', and I don't think there could be.

There's no way to objectively measure probability in these sorts of scenarios, so even if there were some specified confidence level required - e.g. minimum 75% probability - how on earth do you actually work out what the actual number is ? In other words, if ASADA has to 'get' 75%+ to get a conviction, how does the tribunal look at the evidence and work out what percentage ASADA has actually got ?

I don't know that there are any precise requirements for 'beyond reasonable doubt' either - I think the principle is just that each juror / judge decides for themselves what that means in reality.

It's a subjective area, and there's no way around it.
Na I understand. Just love to minimize the "subjective" as we have been the constant victim of the "subjective" the last couple of years. 'Comfortable satisfaction" just seemed like a casual term but knowing now that is close to "beyond reasonable doubt" makes me feel better.
 
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