No Opposition Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

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Walesy

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No ASADA only has to make sure they don't disclose information.

The same as the AFL, the same as EFC, lest either one of them breach the NAD Act.

ASADA are no more of less liable than any other party.
We have a group of individuals who have been destroyed by these breaches.

If ASADA aren't the only ones liable for the breaches, then all parties should be.

The investigation and how it was run, and leaked was a disgrace and should never be allowed to happen in Australian sports again.
 

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Jade

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We have a group of individuals who have been destroyed by these breaches.

If ASADA aren't the only ones liable for the breaches, then all parties should be.

The investigation and how it was run, and leaked was a disgrace and should never be allowed to happen in Australian sports again.
Then gather some evidence as to where the breaches came from and report it to Police.
 

Pevers-Legend

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They have.

Which doesn't change the fact that the role of a prosecutor is to present an argument that a defendant did in fact breach the rules/law.
Is the role of the prosecutor to manipulate and falsify evidence?

Is the role of the prosecutor to omit key (witness) information which discredits their case when providing a summary of findings?
 

Mercurial89

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I'm seeing a lot of bitching and moaning about what ASADA SHOULD and SHOULDN'T do.

The only thing we should be concerned about is what they CAN and CAN NOT do.

And we've now had four Federal Court judges tell us that they have done only what they CAN do.

If you think they are doing something they SHOULDN'T be allowed to do, then lobby your local member to have the Act amended. Because as it stands right now, we are whining over ASADA performing a role they are allowed to because we don't like the potential outcome.
Im not really concnerned with how this affects us, its been done. Its over, it was called play on and we do so. In that respect i aint whining at all.

What i would like is for this to not occur again, or it to at least be reviewed. I dont believe it is unreasonable, and i wouldnt consider myself as someone who has been unrealistic during this saga
 

Jade

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Is the role of the prosecutor to manipulate and falsify evidence?
ASADA falsified evidence? EXCELLENT NEWS!! Quick! Report it to the cops! We've got these bastards now!!

Is the role of the prosecutor to omit key (witness) information which discredits their case when providing a summary of findings?
I must have missed this summary of findings. Strange, I've been pretty up to speed on most of it...

I do recall an interim report handed to the AFL, and not used by ASADA in prosecution of its case. I also recall four Federal Court judges stating they were within their rights to do so....
 

Walesy

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Then gather some evidence as to where the breaches came from and report it to Police.
Why bother, we've had 4 judges rule that it was ok cause nobody explicitly reserved their rights at the time as to it's legality- despite questioning the legality of it.

That means it was A ok, gold star, 4 thumbs up.
 

Jade

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Im not really concnerned with how this affects us, its been done. Its over, it was called play on and we do so. In that respect i aint whining at all.

What i would like is for this to not occur again, or it to at least be reviewed. I dont believe it is unreasonable, and i wouldnt consider myself as someone who has been unrealistic during this saga
Nor would I. That wasn't aimed at you specifically.

I would love to see a senate review after the fact.
 

Pevers-Legend

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ASADA falsified evidence? EXCELLENT NEWS!! Quick! Report it to the cops! We've got these bastards now!!



I must have missed this summary of findings. Strange, I've been pretty up to speed on most of it...

I do recall an interim report handed to the AFL, and not used by ASADA in prosecution of its case. I also recall four Federal Court judges stating they were within their rights to do so....
Oh I'm sorry. Didn't realise that the only punishment we may receive is for the players.

And here I was thinking the Interim Report was used to kick us out of finals....Silly Me.
 

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cymarak

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I think that's what Hird was referring to yesterday when he claimed the players have less rights than the rest of the community.

Hard to disagree with him on that.
That's because they sold their rights to the AFL in exchange for $$$.
 

Jade

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Oh I'm sorry. Didn't realise that the only punishment we may receive is for the players.

And here I was thinking the Interim Report was used to kick us out of finals....Silly Me.
Indeed it was.

Information summarised by ASADA was used by the AFL to formulate a charge sheet and use its near omnipotent powers to punish the club.

All of which was done legally, with no (reported) falsifying of evidence as you claimed.
 

mxett

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Im not saying it isnt, nor am i saying it would be any different.

What i am saying is i totally understand why Hird would want this at least acknowledged as inappropriate. Thats as far as im willing to go without knowing more details. I dont want it all thrown out, i just want proper process followed, with ethical behaviour from all parties. Then let the chips fall where they may.

Trust me if the players or the club deliberately set out to cheat, or have knowingly lied about cheating i want them and the club burned to cinders, i wil wait on that point to see what comes out, i am currently of the belief that we are innocent (im trusting hte club on this) however i am waiting to see what happens, i havnt renewed my membership, i havnt donated to the players this year as i just dont know what has happened or what is going to happen.

This isnt me argueing that we should get off or that we are guilty and should suffer. I just have an issue with the process itself.
Its too late. Proper process may not have been followed. But that shouldnt change the outcome of those interviews if indeed the truth was told by the players
So the AFL's message of do what we say or face severe sanctions fits ok with you then?

Do you work for the AFL? You seem to really try and push the legality of their case and the hopelessness of the situation for the players.
No it doesnt. But they should have stood up to it at the time, not waited to be charged then complained.

How could you possibly think I am anything but a passionate Essendon supporter after arguing our case on the HTB for over 2 years???
So mxett is suffering from Stockholm syndrome then?
No, but I will say I'm begining to get sick of defending what in many cases is the undefendable
 

Dan Cooper

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Indeed it was.

Information summarised by ASADA was used by the AFL to formulate a charge sheet and use its near omnipotent powers to punish the club.

All of which was done legally, with no (reported) falsifying of evidence as you claimed.
How much input do you think the AFL had in 'assisting' ASADA summarize the information used in the interim report, and specifically, what to leave out??
 

Jade

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How much input do you think the AFL had in 'assisting' ASADA summarize the information used in the interim report, and specifically, what to leave out??
What do I think?

I think the AFL are the dirtiest player in this debacle and effectively authored the interim report themselves.
 

Dan Cooper

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What do I think?

I think the AFL are the dirtiest player in this debacle and effectively authored the interim report themselves.
I totally agree with you and can't believe anyone would see the interim report as legal, ethical or anything else other than perhaps skulduggery. Skulduggery which ASADA - the supposed model litigant - were up to their necks in.

ASADA appear to have not only provided the AFL with something they shouldn't have. They also appear to have allowed the AFL to dictate what it would and wouldn't contain.

Justice? Lawful?
 

mxett

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I totally agree with you and can't believe anyone would see the interim report as legal, ethical or anything else other than perhaps skulduggery. Skulduggery which ASADA - the supposed model litigant - were up to their necks in.
The problem as I see it is the AFL tried to manufacture an expediated outcome that saw Essendon punished and removed from the finals, but with no further punishments forthcoming. Realistically if we did cheat these punishments were well below what we deserved. However the AFL do not control ASADA so now we continue to face more consequences if cheating can be proven (to comfortable satisfaction)
 

rumply

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The club has a duty to their players. I would say they have equal responisbility
Yes, but thats a different argument

ASADA had a responsibility to conduct a confidential investigation which they failed hopelessly to do the minute they provided the AFL with the interim report - that was their doing alone, not the AFL or EFC.

Anyway thats just all noise now & matters for nought, the players were failed by everyone & now it is rumoured that they also may have lied, & if so, meh, goodnight irene...
 

cymarak

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What do I think?

I think the AFL are the dirtiest player in this debacle and effectively authored the interim report themselves.
The issue with the AFL is that they have a monopoly, and can use that monopoly power to force clubs and players to do things that probably wouldn't be allowed if it were, say, mobile phone contracts between a company and its customers.

Courts can strike out 'unreasonable' terms included in certain contracts - and say, yes, the customer signed the contract but the company can't enforce certain provisions as they're unreasonable - but presumably haven't touched, or even looked at, any AFL contracts as yet.

And as long as the current financial structure stays in place - where the AFL takes money from the clubs that generate the most income and redistributes it to the poor clubs, making the poor clubs beholden to the AFL - nothing's going to change from within the AFL community itself. Especially as long as the AFL only screws over 1 club at a time - the other clubs don't really care too much, as long as it's not their club being screwed over currently.

The only way there'll be significant change is:
  1. A major change of leadership within the AFL, that just happens to bring in some more reasonable types ('benevolent dictator' types, if you will)
  2. Something forced on the AFL by government
 

expires

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They summarised information that the AFL already had. Four Federal Court judges have now said they were within their powers to do so.
As far as I understand this is not what the four have said. They have said the investigation was legal. It's an open question whether the publication of a half time summary was legal. Or could be legally used by the AFL.

Probably posted it before but a legal joint investigation should have meant the AFL forwent their right to to mete out punishment related to the investigation. At least until after ASADA has finished their business.

Dunno. Just worried about the tribunal being influenced by the current vibe.
 

cymarak

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I totally agree with you and can't believe anyone would see the interim report as legal, ethical or anything else other than perhaps skulduggery. Skulduggery which ASADA - the supposed model litigant - were up to their necks in.

ASADA appear to have not only provided the AFL with something they shouldn't have. They also appear to have allowed the AFL to dictate what it would and wouldn't contain.

Justice? Lawful?
The joint investigation was a thing of beauty.

ASADA gained powers of coercion that it wasn't entitled to. The AFL gained an interim report that it wasn't entitled to. The media gained lots of juicy details it wasn't entitled to.

And Carlton gained a finals spot it wasn't entitled to.

Something for everyone. :rolleyes:
 
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