No Opposition Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

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Seb78

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For past however long, Finey has just sounded like a male version of Caro when it comes to discussing the Essendon situation, and in particular one James Hird.

Speaking of Caro. After reading her latest piece I really think she needs to seek help for her Hird obsession, and I'm not kidding. Gary Lyon has picked up on it and is starting to use it against her in their banter.
Well he must have changed his tune again cause was all over us last night in a positive way. Not so much Hird but definitely backing the players and club in general.
 

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Bunk Moreland

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The cost would have gone way beyond the $21 million they receive from the Government.

Imagine the fallout if the players are suspended for 2 years and the team is non functional.
I don't even think they'd lose that.

The AFL is actually very influential and has a lot of clout publicly.

The govt pulls funding and they'd engage the clubs to start singing about the cash they're being deprived. The media joins in and the govt shit themselves about losing votes. Tugging on footy fans heartstrings is easy politically.
 

TheGreatBarryB

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"Former World Anti-Doping Agency boss John Fahey believes the likelihood of Essendon footballers serving longer suspensions for banned drug use has increased due to "certain people with big egos and fat wallets".
While the former NSW premier, who left WADA last year, did not name names, he made his pointed comments to Fairfax Media after Essendon and James Hird failed in their joint Federal Court challenge of the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority.
John Fahey is a deadset farkwit. Just proof that both sides of politics should not gift 'jobs for the boys' once their political careers are over. Has been completely unprofessional throughout this saga.
 

Bunk Moreland

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John Fahey is a deadset farkwit. Just proof that both sides of politics should not gift 'jobs for the boys' once their political careers are over. Has been completely unprofessional throughout this saga.
He's not really unprofessional as he's not involved there any more. I think he's just calling it as he sees it.
 
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Mark Thompson backs existence of documentation from Essendon’s 2012 supplements program

MARK Thompson has joined Essendon coach James Hird in confirming the presence of a spreadsheet documenting the club’s controversial injection regimen.


Thompson revealed he had seen an A3 copy of an excel document detailing the injection of permitted substance Thymomodulin to players when he was an assistant coach in 2012.

Crucially, a lack of records has created mystery around what the players were injected with and remains a major reason why WADA this week elected to appeal the not-guilty verdict.


Such documentation would go some way to proving players were not administered prohibited substance Thymosin beta-4.

However, Thompson couldn’t confirm whether this document was provided to ASADA as part of the joint investigation.

“I don’t know where it was given, but I’ve seen it and I assume that they (ASADA) took all the paperwork,” Thompson told Fox Footy’s AFL360.

On Tuesday night current coach James Hird insisted the document was supplied to ASADA by then club chief Ian Robson.

Hird went on to suggest that it’s disappearance was the fault of the anti-doping body.

“It’s not Essendon who’s destroyed anything. It’s not an accusation — it’s a fact,” Hird said.

Earlier in the program co-host Gerard Whateley revealed a source, who he described as “having intimate knowledge of the investigation”, had cast doubt over the validity of the document.

“ ... The spreadsheet that is in the hands of investigators commenced in the middle of the year — the program had long been in operation by then — and it did not quantify injectables,” Whateley said.

“There was an internal email regarding Thymomodulin, which didn’t contain anything that could be regarded as a spreadsheet and that email, again, surfaced well into the year.”

“I offer that with no opinion, that’s the facts,” Whateley concluded.

Thompson also provided an insight into the toll on-field the investigation had on the playing group over the past two seasons.

When acting as the senior coach in 2014 he often noticed the players’ focus wavering due to stress.

“There was a couple of training sessions where I thought we may as well not train because we trained like under 10s,” Thompson said.

“They couldn’t kick, they couldn’t handball and they couldn't be in the right position. And I thought, ‘this is not them’.

“I don't think I realised the depth of it then, but it’s a lot deeper than what a lot of people think. “It’s enormous pressure on a group of young men.”

With Essendon sitting 11th on the ladder with three wins and as many losses, Hird’s coaching was already under the microscope before the news of WADA’s appeal broke.

Thompson back his former teammate and stressed that Hird might be suffering from a lack of support from within the club.

“I don’t think there’s a problem with his coaching,” Thompson said.

“I don't think the club is functioning as well as it could be. I think if the club could be as one, all on the same path ... It would be a better performed unit.

“James would be feeling very isolated ... You’d want him to have the support and feel comfortable win lose or draw. He probably needs it more than anyone.”

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...plements-program/story-fnp04d70-1227354036769
I found this bit interesting.

Thompson back his former teammate and stressed that Hird might be suffering from a lack of support from within the club.

“I don’t think there’s a problem with his coaching,” Thompson said.

“I don't think the club is functioning as well as it could be. I think if the club could be as one, all on the same path ... It would be a better performed unit.

“James would be feeling very isolated ... You’d want him to have the support and feel comfortable win lose or draw. He probably needs it more than anyone.”
 

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GUMBLETRON

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It's double jeopardy plain and simple. How this is allowed in a disciplinary matter of such seriousness beggars belief. It goes against the concepts of natural justice. One further example of where accused murderers have more rights than athletes.
It's an appeal to a superior court. It happens all the time.
 

Dan Cooper

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These supposed Sport law 'experts' continue to disagree in their interpretations. Here Justin Quill says "there is now a great chance" the witnesses will be forced to appear, but if WADA choose not to go to the Supreme court to subpoena them, the case could be done pre-finals, and "by about Round 19."

Here are some excepts. Shortcut to full article below >


Supreme Court key to appeal


Some people can’t work out why WADA would appeal when the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority decided not to do so. The same burden and standard of proof apply.

So why would WADA think it can win an appeal, when ASADA — it would seem — thought it could not?

In addition, by appealing to CAS, there is now a great chance that key witnesses — namely Shane Charter, chemist Nima Alavi and possibly even Stephen Dank — will be forced to give evidence.

That would change the dynamic of the hearing before CAS and, possibly, the result.

Before the matter was heard by the AFL Tribunal, an application was made by ASADA to the Victorian Supreme Court for an order requiring Charter and Alavi to give evidence. The application relied on the Commercial Arbitration Act applying to the tribunal hearing because that Act of Parliament gives the Supreme Court power to force any citizen to give evidence in appropriate arbitrations. The court knocked back the application and the tribunal hearing went ahead without the evidence.

But it would seem — even just based on the name of the Court of Arbitration for Sport — that another application to the Supreme Court is more likely to be successful. And if it is, the game changes.

Of course, for the Essendon players, even when a decision is known, the saga might not be over because there could be a ban to be served.

And that ban could be up to two years — less the four or five months already served.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/supreme-court-key-to-appeal/story-fni0ffsx-1227353995977
 

IriDiuM

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It's an appeal to a superior court. It happens all the time.
Problem is, an appeal usually involves overturning a previous decision by proving why it was flawed, rather than disregarding it completely and starting again. Does sound like double jeopardy to me as well, but I'm no lawyer, just a poor suffering footy fan.

I suppose double jeopardy only applies in a court of law, rather than this sort of arbitration.
 

Dan Cooper

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It's an appeal to a superior court. It happens all the time.
In those scenarios - at least as I understand it - it's only the decision that's appealed.

Calling what WADA are doing here an appeal, I think is very misleading. What they are doing is having the case totally reheard, and there is even a stipulation the previous case not be referred to.

Very different to what happens all the time in the Supreme court.
 

MightyDon

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As the first time round, even if subpoenaed they don't have to talk, weren't one or both talking of leaving the country if they were subpoenaed by ASADA first time round?
 

Kaiser Powser

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At the end of 2013, when ASADA went 'rogue' and broke from the not-so-called 'joint investigation', following the AFL's club based sanctions, I hoped that the AFL would threaten with withdrawing from the ASADA agreement. At the time the public support was that the proper authorities needed to complete their investigation and find out what happened. So the AFL let this happen, even though potentially the EFC and players could be whacked twice for the same thing.
But now, this has gone on too far. All but the most vindictive nufties are saying this has gone on too long. The evidence has been tried and collected and come up short. It should be over. The players and the club and the league has had this damaging them for too long. Public sentiment is for this to be over and done with. WADA have no new evidence and appear to be appealing this in the blind hope that three new judges will view this evidence in a completely opposite way to the previous three. This is the definition of a legal long shot and for a governing agency to go down this path, considering the further damage it will to to the players, club and league, it is extremely reckless. I believe the AFL should be threatening WADA and ASADA to drop the appeal or they will drop them. The AFL were content with the punishments back in September 2013, everything since then has been damage out of their control and the will have hated every day of it. Another year of this, with potential for horrific sanctions should be enough to stir them into action, and now with public sentiment shifting, it may be more than just Essendon supporters urging them to do this this time.
 

BrunoV

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Just saw the hird interview on 360 and it wasn't that bad. I think hird was a bit defensive and didn't grasp all of what whately said but I also thought whately misrepresented the tribunal finding at one point. After reading the HTB today I was expecting a dumb-arsed shifty liar and it certainly wasn't that - maybe a little naive at times.

It was a massive misrepresentation.

The Tribunal did not consider whether the players took TB4 because there was insufficient evidence to establish that TB4 was at Essendon.

From an evidentiary point it is the same as saying that the players did not take TB4 because you can't establish the first part of the chain to begin to satisfy yourself that a player took TB4.

The CAS wont simply consider the question of whether the players took TB4 in isolation. If they would, why not just consider whether we took HGH too? They need a basis on which to consider that a player took TB4 because the case is circumstantial and there is no evidence of the administration of the drug.
 

Bombers36

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Can only imagine whats going through these 34 young men's heads. What a farce - to be dragged through one investigation already, named and shamed, and then supposedly cleared only to then have to endure the same crap all over again. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them walk away from the game, or sue the club. and the AFL coming out and saying - 'the AFL will not get involved its a matter fro the Essendon football club and WADA'...People can only endure so much and there comes a breaking point for us all. Its just wrong
 

MarkG

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Problem is, an appeal usually involves overturning a previous decision by proving why it was flawed, rather than disregarding it completely and starting again. Does sound like double jeopardy to me as well, but I'm no lawyer, just a poor suffering footy fan.

I suppose double jeopardy only applies in a court of law, rather than this sort of arbitration.
Are they implying that the AFL tribunal members are either incompetent or biased?

Why have they disallowed the players to use David Grace? Is WADA allowed to use the same QCs? If so, why?

Why is the CAS adjudicators viewed as being so much more knowledgeable than those on the AFL tribunal?
 

tesla1962

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It was a massive misrepresentation.

The Tribunal did not consider whether the players took TB4 because there was insufficient evidence to establish that TB4 was at Essendon.

From an evidentiary point it is the same as saying that the players did not take TB4 because you can't establish the first part of the chain to begin to satisfy yourself that a player took TB4.

The CAS wont simply consider the question of whether the players took TB4 in isolation. If they would, why not just consider whether we took HGH too? They need a basis on which to consider that a player took TB4 because the case is circumstantial and there is no evidence of the administration of the drug.
True and probably more important
but I was more referring to whately saying that thymomodulin had been ruled out by the tribunal, as if it had been ruled out of the program rather than ruled out as being the batch in question. This is common with the foamers. I may actually be wrong on this but I can't see how the tribunal could rule it out of being in the program and it's not how I understood what I saw of the verdict. Happy to be corrected.
 
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Dan Cooper

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McLachlan & Fitzpatrick both running with the "this is only noise" cliche.

But it's an increasingly loud noise - and it threatens to derail another season of AFL football - not just the Essendon football club.

WADA and ASADA are clearly just thumbing their noses at the AFL, their tribunal and the 34 players who have never been found guilty of anything, but have none-the-less had what will be 3 years of their lives ruined by process.
 
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