No Opposition Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

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Mr Mojo Risin

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I don't see how an appeal cannot succeed if it was heard on merit without the need to preserve WADA as a viable entity and the ramifications of a not-guilty verdict clouding judgement. There's a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence that says they have no idea what really happened.
EFA
 

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Thebisc

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apologies if im going over an already covered topic, but the part of the report the concerns me the most is that the players didn't disclose what they(thought) they were taking on asada documents throughout 2012. Why the hell didn't they do this?
Ive been staunch in my support for the players and the fact that they were doing something their employer told them was legit but this really bothered me. It sounds like it was a massive factor in deciding their fate.
 

lysp

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apologies if im going over an already covered topic, but the part of the report the concerns me the most is that the players didn't disclose what they(thought) they were taking on asada documents throughout 2012. Why the hell didn't they do this?
Ive been staunch in my support for the players and the fact that they were doing something their employer told them was legit but this really bothered me. It sounds like it was a massive factor in deciding their fate.
Someone mentioned earlier that the form only requires them to put the "last 7 days" usage on it. That may be a factor.
 

Mr Mojo Risin

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apologies if im going over an already covered topic, but the part of the report the concerns me the most is that the players didn't disclose what they(thought) they were taking on asada documents throughout 2012. Why the hell didn't they do this?
Ive been staunch in my support for the players and the fact that they were doing something their employer told them was legit but this really bothered me. It sounds like it was a massive factor in deciding their fate.
Maybe read the thread a little, this has been posted on the last couple of pages.

https://www.asada.gov.au/anti-doping-programmes/testing/testing-guide
The athlete will be asked to provide information on prescription and non-prescription medications, vitamins, herbal products, food supplements, and any other substances they have used within the last seven (7) days. These are recorded on the Doping Control Test Form.
https://www.asada.gov.au/anti-doping-programmes/testing/testing-guide

Could quite easily have told the truth and not hid anything without being evasive while doing exactly as asked.
 

aggels

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apologies if im going over an already covered topic, but the part of the report the concerns me the most is that the players didn't disclose what they(thought) they were taking on asada documents throughout 2012. Why the hell didn't they do this?
Ive been staunch in my support for the players and the fact that they were doing something their employer told them was legit but this really bothered me. It sounds like it was a massive factor in deciding their fate.
Agreed. Forgive me, this is my first post in something like ten years, but I've been following this thread for the last 18 months or so. This bothers me enough to post. I find it hard to believe that the players would conspire to not tell, it would surely set off alarm bells to anyone being asked not to tell asada (unless of course, they were deliberately cheating which is a thought I can't entertain) but why wouldn't they otherwise? Did they believe that asada were already aware of the regime and that they didn't have to go over old ground...? That doesn't seem likely, but I don't know the way these things work in a football club. I'm completely baffled.
 

Thebisc

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Maybe read the thread a little, this has been posted on the last couple of pages.

https://www.asada.gov.au/anti-doping-programmes/testing/testing-guide

https://www.asada.gov.au/anti-doping-programmes/testing/testing-guide

Could quite easily have told the truth and not hid anything without being evasive while doing exactly as asked.
ok thanks hadn't seen that, that's fairly important. But again this sort of detail is not making its way into mainstream media. plenty of media today going with the 'players lied on asada forms' angle
 

Mr Mojo Risin

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ok thanks hadn't seen that, that's fairly important. But again this sort of detail is not making its way into mainstream media. plenty of media today going with the 'players lied on asada forms' angle
Hopefully you would have learnt by now that the media are often stupid, uninformed or have an agenda that doesn't match the truth. Not always the case but often it is.
 

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Thebisc

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Hopefully you would have learnt by now that the media are often stupid, uninformed or have an agenda that doesn't match the truth. Not always the case but often it is.
Yes. The football media are worse than scum. Disgusting narcissistic human beings who take pleasure in another's misery. All of them
 

Mr Mojo Risin

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For EVERY ASADA test to be outside of a 7 day window of an injection would be an extraordinarily convenient coincidence.
Who said the players never informed ASADA of anything?

57. On 18 September 2015, the Players wrote to the CAS Court Office objecting inter alia
to the accuracy and reliability of WADA's lay witness statements and questioned the
admissibility of the proposed expert reports on the basis that such evidence relied upon
was available or could have reasonable been relied upon by WADA before the Decision
was rendered.

58. The 32 Players:
(i) further requested that ASADA be directed to produce the unredacted Doping
Control Notification and Doping Control Test Forms for certain research urine
samples identified in the expert report of Prof. Thevis and relied upon by WADA
in its Supplemental Submission;

61. On 23 September 2015, WADA, the AFL, and ASADA filed objections to the Players'
request for the unredacted doping control forms concerning the research urine samples.
Later that same day, WADA and ASADA filed their comments in response to the
Players' objections concerning the accuracy, reliability, and admissibility ofWADA's
lay and expert witnesses and evidence. In addition, under separate cover, WADA
submitted its responses to the Players request for information and data concerning the
TB-4 test. WADA further supplemented its response in later letters dated 29 and 30
September 2015, and 6 October 2015.

64. On 9 October 2015, the Panel, upon consideration of the parties' submissions,
determined as follows: (1) the 32 Players request for further information concerning the
interaction and role of WADA's counsel with ASADA, WADA, and the Cologne
laboratory during the underlying proceedings was denied; (2) the witness
statements/reports of interviews of Dean Robinson, Shane Charter, Nimi Alvia, Vincent
Xu, and Stephen Dank were admitted to the file and if and insofar as WADA did not
intend to call such persons at the hearing, the weight afforded to their evidence would
be a matter for determination by the Panel; and (3) the Doping Control Notification and
Doping Control Test Forms should remain redacted so as to preserve the confidentiality
of the identity of any athlete not a party to this proceeding.
Why were the doping forms that were used against the players not allowed to be viewed? I don't buy the "
preserve the confidentiality of the identity of any athlete not a party to this proceeding" because they could keep anything that did not relate to the party involved in proceedings redacted.

It was hundreds of injections wasn't it? Unless that number was just invented by the media.
There was a number in the AFL Charge Shit in the thousands for the whole list. But even that biased concocted rubbish prefaces the number with "If the dosages the subject of the “Patient Information/Informed Consent” forms were administered, the playing group would receive in the order of". In other words the AFL knew the program did not follow the original plan due to many reasons including lack of management by Dank and Robinson or intervention by Thompson and Reid and most of this happened in the off season.
 

Bombers36

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can anyone tell me since this whole saga started;-

How many coaches have we had?
how many chairmen have come and gone?
How many draft picks did we lose?
& in what year was it we made finals but werent allowed to play?
 

Doss

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fishardansin

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Personally hope that the players use this year to go nuts on the AFL. Take them to court for interfering with the process. Then question the rights of CAS to hand down such a penalty with everything taken into consideration. Then go for the jugular and challenge the salary cap and draft of the AFL.

There is no reason that the AFL couldn't thank CAS for their decision and accept it but suspend 75% of the punishment. They could all miss 6 games but return for the rest of the season. It would be enough to ensure a team that finished bottom 4 last year did not make the finals this year but not totally write of a whole year for these men.

I hope Hird goes nuts on Sunday. I'll be in Sydney and am considering going.
 

fishardansin

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He just hated the direction the party was going in and when Gillard got power he left because he knew they were stuffed
I'll say this about Tanner. He is clearly fairly right wing for Labour. However, being the member for Melb he had a lot to do with a few women that I know who run different NGOs and social programs. Every single one had a crush on him and 100% respect for him, despite his politics being a long way from their's, as he had such a strong presence and an integrity that is uncommon to find in anyone having to juggle leadership in a diverse community. He always did what he thought was right and would listen first.

We're very lucky to have him as our leader.
 

Bombermania

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I'll say this about Tanner. He is clearly fairly right wing for Labour. However, being the member for Melb he had a lot to do with a few women that I know who run different NGOs and social programs. Every single one had a crush on him and 100% respect for him, despite his politics being a long way from their's, as he had such a strong presence and an integrity that is uncommon to find in anyone having to juggle leadership in a diverse community. He always did what he thought was right and would listen first.

We're very lucky to have him as our leader.
Without turning this into a political thread for all the problems with the last ALP government, Tanner was one of its better performers, and as you say he was popular in his seat.
 

caboose

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Yes. The football media are worse than scum. Disgusting narcissistic human beings who take pleasure in another's misery.
Spot on.

Although, to be fair ... it's not just the football media. It's the Australian media in general.
 
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Personally hope that the players use this year to go nuts on the AFL. Take them to court for interfering with the process. Then question the rights of CAS to hand down such a penalty with everything taken into consideration. Then go for the jugular and challenge the salary cap and draft of the AFL.

There is no reason that the AFL couldn't thank CAS for their decision and accept it but suspend 75% of the punishment. They could all miss 6 games but return for the rest of the season. It would be enough to ensure a team that finished bottom 4 last year did not make the finals this year but not totally write of a whole year for these men.

I hope Hird goes nuts on Sunday. I'll be in Sydney and am considering going.
Players still believe they are innocent people who thought the players were going to cop this on the chin have rocks in their head.
 

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At the time, the AFL (via the Age) was painting a picture of rampant use of exotic drugs at Essendon, with Hird the main architect. The club was being investigated by ASADA for suspected use of Hexarelin and CJC1260, neither of which were used. AOD 9604 was all the talk in the papers. Essendon thought they had only given legal supplements, and it still may be true. Hird believed when everyone told the truth, and all the facts were known, there would be no illegal substance use at the club. He is, to this day, and even after the CAS verdict, still possibly correct. It's just that it doesn't seem that way, given the governance/supervision/record keeping shortcomings that the club has admitted, and given that the CAS decision has legitimised the assertion by ASADA that illegal TB4 was used.




Yes Demetriou was trying to manage the fallout from the "darkest day" press conference, and yes, you could interpret his actions as being helpful in preparing the club for the storm. Thereafter, Demetrious and the AFL's plan was to go hard on the club and on club officials, Hird being the primary target, in the hope of striking an agreement with ASADA (under duress from the Minister for Sport) to spare the players, and in so doing, protect the AFL from stuffing its comp. Hird, believing he, and the club, had done no wrong, was not prepared to go along with being scapegoated, and fought back in one of the few ways available to him, by accusing Demetriou of lying about the tip off.
And the AFL isn't to blame for the program, but it is to blame for the massive PR campaign, via its leaks, which saw the club, and Hird, maligned and penalised in a way that was not justified by any evidence, or any hearing, using standover tactics and threats to both Hird and the club, in August 2013.
Really, this is very brief. You could write a book about it. And Chip Le Grand has done. You should read it if you want background to your questions.



Definitely. There is evidence that other clubs were under suspicion and ASADA had blood tests sent to Germany in 2012 from clubs other than Essendon. This came out in the Middleton hearing.
Hird said we were just trying to catch up to other clubs. I don't know what caused him to think that.
The judgement by the CAS also said that ASADA believed that TB4 use was widespread throughout the AFL in 2012, although this has not been publicised, surprise, surprise.
Geelong suddenly got bigger and stronger and more successful in the mid noughties when Robinson was there and, by his own admission, was consulting with Dank on an almost daily basis.
West Coast were renowned for being bigger and stronger in the early 90's, possible due to steroid use.
There are enough strands in the wire to make CAS more than comfortably satisfied.



Nothing wrong with your early days thoughts. All that has really changed from that time is the evidence of poor supervision of, and too much trust placed in, Dank and Robinson. The players are innocent. This so, despite CAS finding them guilty on the basis that a few suspicious circumstances equals proof to comfortable satisfaction. I still believe Hird did nothing wrong.
What has happened is that there has been enough consequences, and enough accusations, and now the BS guilty verdict, that have made the PR and the accusations seem like they are well founded.
What we had was a pair of rogues, Dank and Robinson, a trusting and lax supervisory group, a poor management structure that enabled Reid to be sidelined, and a campaign by the AFL that made it all seem worse than it was.

Anyway, that's my thoughts. No doubt others think more harshly of Hird and the club.
I don't want to kick off another round of debate on the subject of blame. I think we should all take the lead from Tanner when he said there is no point in pointing the finger at individuals (within the club) and that the club as a whole has to share the blame.
I still feel the need to point the finger fairly and squarely at the AFL, ASADA, WADA and CAS, as well as a compliant media, for making this the disaster it has become for us.
Great post thank you my friend
 
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