Catalan Independence Referendum

[BLA60]

You're so quick to defend your stance. Show me what i've missed.

If its so legal then why has the vote not been recognised by the international community as one??

 

[King Brown]

The whole idea of a state asserting that it can’t be dissolved and therefore the law matters when a part of the state wants to leave is so laughable.

If a part of a state wants to leave then it is asserting that it no longer wants to be governed by the laws of that state.

It can either be resolved peacefully or by civil war. But the law doesn’t matter.

 

[Spirit Level]

This has civil war written all over it.

Only a couple of years ago I was basking in the sun in beautiful Barcelona without a care in the world

 

[BLA60]

The whole idea of a state asserting that it can’t be dissolved and therefore the law matters when a part of the state wants to leave is so laughable.

If a part of a state wants to leave then it is asserting that it no longer wants to be governed by the laws of that state.

It can either be resolved peacefully or by civil war. But the law doesn’t matter.

The law does matter if you want to do it by flying under the banner of "our democratic right".

Go through the proper process. Much like the Scottish referendum years before.

Otherwise the only way to ignore the laws is through a proper civil war.

All that Sunday was, was both sides calling each others bluff. Catalonia didn't expect Madrid to go through with the strong arm tactic. Just like Madrid didn't expect the population to turn out like they did.

 

[HairyO]

90% Yes vote, with the EU still trying to stall, delay & diminish Brexit as much as possible.....This is all Russia's doing surely?

It's great to see the awakening of the people in Europe to the fact that the multi-nationals want to tie them all into the one system as a means by which to control, manipulate & rip them off as much as possible.....Hope this kicks off a massive EU exit & succession referendums all over Europe....That'll **** up the world bankers plans goon n proper.

Madrid is just doing it's EU master's bidding here.....Absolute madness in attempting to derail & deny Democracy at it's very foundation & roots....Democracy is now the enemy of the Western establishment....It doesn't get any more blatant than this.

Im sure the state of their economy has nothing to do with the Spanish being a whole bunch of the laziest people in the Western world who believe in low taxes and high government spending.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Im sure the state of their economy has nothing to do with the Spanish being a whole bunch of the laziest people in the Western world who believe in low taxes and high government spending.

Yeah....I've heard that exact same excuse & reason proferred for the raping of the Greek economy also.

 

[Procrastinator35]

The law does matter if you want to do it by flying under the banner of "our democratic right".

Go through the proper process. Much like the Scottish referendum years before.

Otherwise the only way to ignore the laws is through a proper civil war.

All that Sunday was, was both sides calling each others bluff. Catalonia didn't expect Madrid to go through with the strong arm tactic. Just like Madrid didn't expect the population to turn out like they did.

You do recognize the contradictions inherent in your position yeah?

If this has no legal standing via the Spanish constitution, then why go to the trouble of arresting all the provincial Catalan Governors?....Why send in the storm troopers to stop a referendum & turn the tide of opinion against you, when you can simply shut down the process legislatively?

Time to do the math amigo.

You're beginning to see the bigger picture here now I take it?

 

[HairyO]

Yeah....I've heard that exact same excuse & reason proferred for the raping of the Greek economy also.

In Greece where people pay no tax then get pensions at age 55? In Greece where taxable incomes of doctors were half that of school teachers?

I wonder why they ran out of money...

 

[Procrastinator35]

In Greece where people pay no tax then get pensions at age 55? In Greece where taxable incomes of doctors were half that of school teachers?

I wonder why they ran out of money...

They've become bankrupt at the hands of the E.U....And anyone who denies this is just plain silly....And now they'll be paying back that debt for the next 3 generations....That's called indentured slavery in my books.

Of course we all know that the Southern Orthodox & Catholic European Countries are far more laid-back than their Northern protestant counterparts....Goes without saying.

 

[BLA60]

You do recognize the contradictions inherent in your position yeah?

If this has no legal standing via the Spanish constitution, then why go to the trouble of arresting all the provincial Catalan Governors?....Why send in the storm troopers to stop a referendum & turn the tide of opinion against you, when you can simply shut down the process legislatively?

Time to do the math amigo.

You're beginning to see the bigger picture here now I take it?

Are you serious? why go to the trouble of arresting Catalan Governors and why send in the police to breakup an illegal vote started by those Governors??

It was handled poorly by both sides. Surely we can at least agree on that!

I'm not getting involved in your crazy ideas of a bigger picture involving the EU. Keep your tinfoil hat.

You have tried multiple times to patronise me on this topic but all you do is change your position each time I reply. What is your actual position on this matter? Because I don't even think you know anymore and you just want to make noise because someone disagrees with you.

 

[HairyO]

They've become bankrupt at the hands of the E.U....And anyone who denies this is just plain silly....And now they'll be paying back that debt for the next 3 generations....That's called indentured slavery in my books.

Of course we all know that the Southern Orthodox & Catholic European Countries are far more laid-back than their Northern protestant counterparts....Goes without saying.

They were bankrupt 20 years ago. Its just that no-one ever bothered to actually look.

Banks kept lending money and the governments kept spending money. Until one day someone actually had a look at how much was owed.

Laid back is another way of saying lazy. Sitting around getting paid to do nothing sounds like a wonderful life. Until those few who actually do the work decide they dont want to fund the lazy anymore.

Its amazing how quickly people can get active when they realise their lifestyle is about to be changed.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Are you serious? why go to the trouble of arresting Catalan Governors and why send in the police to breakup an illegal vote started by those Governors??

It was handled poorly by both sides. Surely we can at least agree on that!

I'm not getting involved in your crazy ideas of a bigger picture involving the EU. Keep your tinfoil hat.

You have tried multiple times to patronise me on this topic but all you do is change your position each time I reply. What is your actual position on this matter? Because I don't even think you know anymore and you just want to make noise because someone disagrees with you.

Yeah, nice rant.

My position has been rock solid & unshifted from the beginning....The Spanish government wants to stop a legal Democratic process & is using illegal & unconstitutional force in order to do so.

Save the silliness for the kids on the main board amigo.

 

[Bradesmaen]

90% Yes vote, with the EU still trying to stall, delay & diminish Brexit as much as possible.....This is all Russia's doing surely?

It's great to see the awakening of the people in Europe to the fact that the multi-nationals want to tie them all into the one system as a means by which to control, manipulate & rip them off as much as possible.....Hope this kicks off a massive EU exit & succession referendums all over Europe....That'll **** up the world bankers plans goon n proper.

Madrid is just doing it's EU master's bidding here.....Absolute madness in attempting to derail & deny Democracy at it's very foundation & roots....Democracy is now the enemy of the Western establishment....It doesn't get any more blatant than this.

The 90% yes vote was with 40% turnout and everyone already knew that the no voters were mostly staying home. Even official polling had it at 41-49-10 (41 being in favour).

Catalans are nut cases. So are the Basques.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Yeah, nice rant.

My position has been rock solid & unshifted from the beginning....The Spanish government wants to stop a legal Democratic process & is using illegal & unconstitutional force in order to do so.

Save the silliness for the kids on the main board amigo.

You're wrong. As per the constitution of Spain, secession is illegal.

 

[Procrastinator35]

The 90% yes vote was with 40% turnout and everyone already knew that the no voters were mostly staying home. Even official polling had it at 41-49-10 (41 being in favour).

Catalans are nut cases. So are the Basques.

You mean, only the one's that vote Yes, yeah?....That's a very poor attempt at an apologist position on the fascist behavior on the part of the Spanish Government & it's militant storm troopers.....This is supposed to be a Democracy.....Since when was force a part of that equation?

And we know why it was only 40%....Nothing to do with voters staying at home.....Everything to do with totalitarian, fascist tactics.

Talk about broad brush-strokes mate.

 

[BLA60]

Yeah, nice rant.

My position has been rock solid & unshifted from the beginning....The Spanish government wants to stop a legal Democratic process & is using illegal & unconstitutional force in order to do so.

Save the silliness for the kids on the main board amigo.

Straight back to patronising.

You proclaim all this democratic right and process despite the fact they aren't doing this democratically. And you still have dodged actually showing me proof that this "referendum" is legal as you state.

Its like me going to my local council and saying i want my own council. And then hold my own vote and proclaim independence.

Also

You lesson your own position with these stupid one liners at the end of your posts. But if that makes you feel big and tough behind a keyboard then be my guest.

But you are fighting a losing argument here. So quit before its too late

 

[Procrastinator35]

Here's a very simple question for you BLA60.

If this vote was both unconstitutional & had zero legal standing, then why arrest every Catalan governor?.....Why send in the Storm-Troopers?

What exactly was it that the Spanish Government in Madrid is frightened off, if it does indeed have the constitution on it's side, as you claim?

 

[swingdog]

Here's a very simple question for you BLA60.

If this vote was both unconstitutional & had zero legal standing, then why arrest every Catalan governor?.....Why send in the Storm-Troopers?

What exactly was it that the Spanish Government in Madrid is frightened off, if it does indeed have the constitution on it's side, as you claim?

Because you're confusing means and ends, I assume deliberately.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Because you're confusing means and ends, I assume deliberately.

Oh?....Really?

I must be taking my lead from the Spanish government then.

Your obtuseness is duly noted.

 

[swingdog]

Oh?....Really?

I must be taking my lead from the Spanish government then.

Your obtuseness is duly noted.

Maybe not deliberately.

 

[BLA60]

Here's a very simple question for you BLA60.

If this vote was both unconstitutional & had zero legal standing, then why arrest every Catalan governor?.....Why send in the Storm-Troopers?

What exactly was it that the Spanish Government in Madrid is frightened off, if it does indeed have the constitution on it's side, as you claim?

Because they are ignoring the DEMOCRATIC constitution.

Because they are promoting and partaking in an illegal activity.

Seriously the answer is right in front of you but you ignore it and proclaim fascism.

Sure it was handled poorly by Madrid. But I have no doubts they felt they had to strong arm because of the comments that the vote would be legally binding and they would them self proclaim independence.

Simple enough answer for you?

 

[swingdog]

Because they are ignoring the DEMOCRATIC constitution.

Because they are promoting and partaking in an illegal activity.

Seriously the answer is right in front of you but you ignore it and proclaim fascism.

Sure it was handled poorly by Madrid. But I have no doubts they felt they had to strong arm because of the comments that the vote would be legally binding and they would them self proclaim independence.

Simple enough answer for you?

I think you know the answer to that one BLA60

 

[Bradesmaen]

You mean, only the one's that vote Yes, yeah?....That's a very poor attempt at an apologist position on the fascist behavior on the part of the Spanish Government & it's militant storm troopers.....This is supposed to be a Democracy.....Since when was force a part of that equation?

And we know why it was only 40%....Nothing to do with voters staying at home.....Everything to do with totalitarian, fascist tactics.

Talk about broad brush-strokes mate.

Yeah, sure. Why not blame them for 9-11 too?

It wasn't democracy, because it was against the constitution. I don't agree with the tactics of the Spanish government either. They easily could have handled it better.

40% was due to people staying at home, because they knew it was illegal. Stop making up conspiracy you nutcase.

 

[King Brown]

The law does matter if you want to do it by flying under the banner of "our democratic right".

Go through the proper process. Much like the Scottish referendum years before.

Otherwise the only way to ignore the laws is through a proper civil war.

All that Sunday was, was both sides calling each others bluff. Catalonia didn't expect Madrid to go through with the strong arm tactic. Just like Madrid didn't expect the population to turn out like they did.

Personally I see democratic rights as something of a universal, not contingent on whatever self serving laws are written in the interests of state apparatus. If you think they're more of a process granted by the state, then what's the point of democracy as a cause? Should we agree with pro-democracy protestors being arrested in China because they didn't follow a proper process?

 

[swingdog]

Personally I see democratic rights as something of a universal, not contingent on whatever self serving laws are written in the interests of state apparatus. If you think they're more of a process granted by the state, then what's the point of democracy as a cause? Should we agree with pro-democracy protestors being arrested in China because they didn't follow a proper process?

Rights are always granted. Your protesters can define democracy as a right and fight for that right, but equally the Chinese state can refuse it. It's not to say the state is right to do so although it can argue it has the law on its side. That continues until the law is changed.

Some people in Catalonia are fighting for their right to independence. The Spanish government has the right (legally through its constitution) to resist that. It has done so in a heavy-handed manner.