Cats Versus Crows

[cmndstab]

There shouldn't necessarily be female commentators any more than there should necessarily be male commentators.


There should be commentators who are good at what they do, knowledgable about that which they are commenting on, and interesting to listen to. Their gender shouldn't come into consideration either way.

 

[Crow-mo]

Because there are MANY avid and knowledgeable female fans out there.

so what? irrelevant.

As others have stated - she did her homework, she knew our players (a bloody first!) and she didn't fluff and carry on. I did also state that IF they were good enough they should get a go. She wasn't the best, but she sure as hell wasn't the worst.

you've failed to address my point entirely. "ought to" and "if" are conflicting concepts in this context.

why ought to there be more female commentators? IF anyone is good enough: that is either a redundant statement or a request for affirmative action - where its not called for.

i made comment on your entitlement view, i have nothing for or against this one particular girl.

 

[Crow-mo]

There shouldn't necessarily be female commentators any more than there should necessarily be male commentators.


There should be commentators who are good at what they do, knowledgable about that which they are commenting on, and interesting to listen to. Their gender shouldn't come into consideration either way.

precisely.

which is the problem with the passive aggressive tone of Jenny's post - that she doesn't want unqualified people to get a gig, but there still needs to be more female commentators. that's the affirmative action equivalent of "i'm not racist, but..."

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

Because there are MANY avid and knowledgeable female fans out there. As others have stated - she did her homework, she knew our players (a bloody first!) and she didn't fluff and carry on. I did also state that IF they were good enough they should get a go. She wasn't the best, but she sure as hell wasn't the worst.

She sucked. No offence.

Doesn't matter how much she knows...her voice is annoying.

 

[Gets!]

I will give her kudos for using the phrase, 'turnover city'.

But yeah, she is shit.

 

[fryingpan]

she knew our players (a bloody first!)

Now you're just being sexist. It's a first that a commentator knew our players? Get real. Bar a small minority, the commentators know our players, maybe not in depth like we do but they certainly know their stuff.

 

[jo172]

Now you're just being sexist. It's a first that a commentator knew our players? Get real. Bar a small minority, the commentators know our players, maybe not in depth like we do but they certainly know their stuff.

In her defence she was able to distinguish between Vince, Mackay, Cook and Moran using the unusually logical step of looking at their numbers.

That itself is far better than any other non-sa (and more than a few from sa) have ever managed.

But definitely drop her back to the two's for a spell.

 

[cmndstab]

I assume jenny's "there ought to be female commentators" comment was more meant along the lines that there are enough knowledgable female football fans around that you would expect that, all things being equal, if the TV networks were just going to pick from a cross-section of them there would be some women selected unless there was a bias against them. Kind of like a statistical argument. Even if the split is 90-10, you would expect one commentator per ten to be a woman.


Knowledge of and passion for the game don't make one a good commentator, though. I'm passionate about the Crows but I'd be a terrible commentator for their matches. Commentating itself is an art, and an extremely difficult one that requires practise and no small amount of natural talent (as opposed to being the special comments person which just requires an understand of the game). I'm not sure there are that many women who are practised in the art in commentating on a ball sport. Not because they can't do it, but because it's not exactly a great career move to gain expertise in a field that is dominated by another gender.


Kelli herself doesn't, in my opinion, have the right voice for the job, but you cannot doubt her commitment to commentating on football. She's done it on all levels in many different places throughout her career, and she's well and truly paid her dues. If she inspires other women to take it up because they can see that hard work will pay off, then kudos to her.

 

[jackster83]

I'd much rather have her commentating than the (Vic) biased clowns like Robert Walls, Tim Lane, Tim Watson and David Schwartz. I can't stand those "experts" who barely watch any of our games, then say crap like "the ruck is a glaring weakness for the crows" or "Adelaide are a very defensive team." FFS they should just go back to pleasing themselves talking up Carlton's revival.

 

[Damp Squarie]

I'd much rather have her commentating than the (Vic) biased clowns like Robert Walls, Tim Lane, Tim Watson and David Schwartz. I can't stand those "experts" who barely watch any of our games, then say crap like "the ruck is a glaring weakness for the crows" or "Adelaide are a very defensive team." FFS they should just go back to pleasing themselves talking up Carlton's revival.

Two valid comments if you ask me

 

[RoosterLad]

Haha I know. I completely agree with both of those comments....

Jenny is just being sexist though. It doesn't surprise me at all. Next she will be wanting chicks getting drafted as well.

 

[KUNG FU]

I thought her co-commentators were condescending pricks - "Well Kelli, I think you'll find..." only to spin off some rubbish themselves every time she made the slightest error. I don't want to hear their bullshit 'analysis' either - its a load of taped together Melbourne media hack work. Just tell me what's happening and as far as that went I thought she was pretty good for a first shot.

 

[Campbell's Chunky]

I thought her co-commentators were condescending pricks - "Well Kelli, I think you'll find..." only to spin off some rubbish themselves every time she made the slightest error. I don't want to hear their bullshit 'analysis' either - its a load of taped together Melbourne media hack work. Just tell me what's happening and as far as that went I thought she was pretty good for a first shot.

Yeh better than Luke 'Chris Knights is a prestigious kick' Darcy.

She was good (relative), but it's hard to stay focussed on a game with a female commentating for some reason....

 

[WALL-e]

Yeh better than Luke 'Chris Knights is a prestigious kick' Darcy.

She was good (relative), but it's hard to stay focussed on a game with a female commentating for some reason....

There was nothing wrong with her research and info, she was just boring. Sounded like my old year 12 English teacher.

 

[cmndstab]

I'd like to see her given another game to see if her voice comes out a bit more. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she was nervous and that caused her to withdraw her voice a bit, but let's see if she can open up.


Oh, and apparently, she's my singing teacher's daughters second cousin. Or something. What, does that make her her third cousin? I don't know.

 

[KUNG FU]

I'd like to see her given another game to see if her voice comes out a bit more. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt that she was nervous and that caused her to withdraw her voice a bit, but let's see if she can open up.

I'd say it was more the brow-beating she copped from her co-commentators.

 

[Riggy1]

Kelli Underwood>>>>>>>Luke Darcy>>>>>>>Tim Lane

the voice will grow on me in time, just didnt sound right but it will eventually.

 

[tiggsy]

Pretty funny that in a state where we get to listen to the likes of KG, Steven Rowe, Chris McDermott and David Wildy that anybody could complain about a commentator's voice. Dennis Cometti would probably be the only male commentator with a truly outstanding voice and that doesn't make him the best commentator.

 

[cmndstab]

I'd say it was more the brow-beating she copped from her co-commentators.

Was it really that bad? Admittedly I wasn't listening to everything that was being said because I was discussing the match with my parents at the time, but it seemed to me they gave her a ribbing to start with and then left her alone. Judging by other comments in this thread, I must have missed some of the things they said. Admittedly my ears were mostly only pricking up when she spoke.


tiggsy - don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm saying she has a bad voice in the traditional sense. KG and Rowe in particular are examples of commentators who really don't have good voices at all, but are able to put their voice forward and use them to sound exciting. McDermott you'll notice never commentates, probably because his voice sounds modulates at a constant frequence between two semitones and never deviates when he's talking about football. Wildy is pretty good and has a decent voice. I know a lot of people hate listening to Rowe, but I think he's fantastic, because he's fun to listen to and sucks you into a match when he's commentating. Kelli was saying lots of good things but in the end I felt like she could have been subtitled and the match wouldn't have lost too much.


Besides, off-topic, but even poor voices can be trained to sound good. Michael Crawford had a terrible voice and yet was probably the best Phantom (of the Opera) of them all, because he worked on it for over a year to get himself to sound how he wanted to.

 

[Crow-mo]

I assume jenny's "there ought to be female commentators" comment was more meant along the lines that there are enough knowledgable female football fans around that you would expect that, all things being equal, if the TV networks were just going to pick from a cross-section of them there would be some women selected unless there was a bias against them. Kind of like a statistical argument. Even if the split is 90-10, you would expect one commentator per ten to be a woman.

no sorry, this does not make sense. you've assumed a linear relationship that just does not exist. the vast majority of commentators have played footy, even Cometti played to wafl level (I think??).

there are only a couple of commentators that do not possess the footy background, and they tend to be long standing journalists of repute, in fact the only one I can think of who might break this mould might be Anthony Hudson - who himself, did a fair apprenticeship in radio.

if you take the proportion of non-footy backgrounded commentators, and then apply that pro-rata, I am not sure I see the proportionate representation argument.

there are also no 'male' commentators who have been fast tracked, well ahead of schedule like Kelli Underwood. which is fine, there are enough female supporters out there to warrant making an effort. a proportionate, merit based effort. this one is a bit of a stretch, so I struggle to see how 'more' is needed.

and I'd argue about all these knowledge female fans out there, on this board we have CG - who is doing all the right things, and you can see her knowledge expanding all the time; and Nikki who has a genuinely excellent understanding of the game and tactics; everyone else including Jenny, like most men, make up for a lack of any real understanding with enthusiasm.

but anyway, the predominant qualification seems to be one of 2 streams:
1. illustrious onfield career
2. strong footy background in print and radio

and I don't see any need to promote a gender bias, as I don't see any real issues in this one, small, largely irrelevant field. if we're talking about equality in the wider workforce, sure. but we're not, this is a small esoteric field that is already trying to do something along the right lines.

Knowledge of and passion for the game don't make one a good commentator, though. I'm passionate about the Crows but I'd be a terrible commentator for their matches. Commentating itself is an art, and an extremely difficult one that requires practise and no small amount of natural talent (as opposed to being the special comments person which just requires an understand of the game). I'm not sure there are that many women who are practised in the art in commentating on a ball sport. Not because they can't do it, but because it's not exactly a great career move to gain expertise in a field that is dominated by another gender.

commentating is not an end in itself, or at least not for sometime. most 'journalist' types have built themselves up over the years in print media, into radio and then TV. and if the rights weren't split over so many channels, there'd be even less of these than there are now.

people don't just become TV commentators.

Kelli herself doesn't, in my opinion, have the right voice for the job, but you cannot doubt her commitment to commentating on football. She's done it on all levels in many different places throughout her career, and she's well and truly paid her dues. If she inspires other women to take it up because they can see that hard work will pay off, then kudos to her.

has she really paid her dues?

but that said, I think the debate is easily side tracked by delving, somewhat irrelevantly, into the details of this one particular person.

 

[Crow-mo]

Besides, off-topic, but even poor voices can be trained to sound good. Michael Crawford had a terrible voice and yet was probably the best Phantom (of the Opera) of them all, because he worked on it for over a year to get himself to sound how he wanted to.

not sure how true that is, his natural voice is not that of Frank spencer.

 

[cmndstab]

has she really paid her dues?

I don't really know enough to debate the other points of this post, but on this point, she's certainly spent a large amount of her life persuing this career path. She's commentated in many different parts of Australia, in both Aussie Rules Footy and other sports. She's got a degree in journalism, has spent time with radio, and from what I've heard (from an admittedly biased great aunt or whatever the hell she is, I don't get this relations stuff) hasn't got there just by knowing the right people, but by impressing enough people with her work. I'd say she's paid her dues, though obviously I don't know her full story.

not sure how true that is, his natural voice is not that of Frank spencer.

It is absolutely true (though, as you say, he doesn't naturally have Frank's voice either ), he does not have a natural singer's voice. He's one of my singing idols, because I don't exactly have a natural singer's voice either but if he can work with his limited voice to become one of the greats, then surely I can at least become acceptable!

 

[cmndstab]

Before this devolves into a argument of semantics, let me point out that Michael Crawford uses his voice extremely well. He is very clever with his singing and knows exactly how to get the right tones (and undertones) in his voices, and from a technical point of view is nigh-perfect when it comes to singing. I'm just saying that if you gave his voice to many other really famous music theatre people, they'd never get out of it nearly what he has. It's a poor voice that's been tuned to near perfection, in much the same way Rachmaninoff would likely make the run-down out-of-tune piano at a local church club sound awesome.

 

[macca23]

Before this devolves into a argument of semantics, let me point out that Michael Crawford uses his voice extremely well. He is very clever with his singing and knows exactly how to get the right tones (and undertones) in his voices, and from a technical point of view is nigh-perfect when it comes to singing. I'm just saying that if you gave his voice to many other really famous music theatre people, they'd never get out of it nearly what he has. It's a poor voice that's been tuned to near perfection, in much the same way Rachmaninoff would likely make the run-down out-of-tune piano at a local church club sound awesome.

All of which is irrelevant stabby.

Kelli's voice was rather monotone and pretty ordinary.

 

[Crow-mo]

I don't really know enough to debate the other points of this post, but on this point, she's certainly spent a large amount of her life persuing this career path. She's commentated in many different parts of Australia, in both Aussie Rules Footy and other sports. She's got a degree in journalism, has spent time with radio, and from what I've heard (from an admittedly biased great aunt or whatever the hell she is, I don't get this relations stuff) hasn't got there just by knowing the right people, but by impressing enough people with her work. I'd say she's paid her dues, though obviously I don't know her full story.

none of that sounds like she's ready to commentate nationally a televised game of aussie rules.

I don't think, and if i'm wrong by all means tell me, that she is even regularly commentating any senior level of footy.

there is zero chance of a man getting that opportunity with such a limited background. but I don't see that as a problem, i.e. her being fast tracked, I'm sure someone saw something worth while to give her a go.

my issue is suggesting that this is a necessary thing to combat some great gender based inequality.