Census will allow Australians to identify as 'other' for both sex and gender

Lebbo73

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When have you ever been asked to go along with it? Which work mates, family members or close friends of yours have or are considering gender reassignment?
Ok. I will concede it was a poor choice of words. I don't see the reasoning behind why someone should be able to have gender reassignment surgery if they don't have any attributes of the opposite sex.
 
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actually it is. That's the agreed upon definitions. Gender is not biological. Literally couldn't be simpler.
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

If gender is not biological then what value does society gain from distinguishing between man and male or woman and female?

Men play tennis on the ATP tour. Women play tennis on the WTA tour. Where do males and females play? Or is it the way around and it's actually the male and female tours? If I decide my gender is female can I play women's tennis? Of course not, that's not how it works. Just ask the person in this thread who has actually been through gender identity change. I mean you don't get banned from playing on the WTA tour if you tall and muscular and have broad shoulders, or if you picked woodwork instead of home economics at school. You do if you have a dick, though.

Here's a (admittedly Wiki, but sourced) definition of masculinity:

Masculinity (also called boyhood, manliness or manhood) is a set of attributes, behaviors and roles generally associated with boys and men. Masculinity is socially constructed, but made up of both socially-defined and biologically-created factors, distinct from the definition of the male biological sex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity

Anyone who thinks gender is completely divorced from biological sex is probably a first year arts student.

The OP actually refers to changes to the census which will allow people to identify as male, female or other. That is their sex classification definitions. The 'other' classification and subsequent sub-questions are for intersex, transgender etc. people who don't feel they belong in either category of male and female. It's got nothing to do with gender roles.
 

DemonTim

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If gender is not biological then what value does society gain from distinguishing between man and male or woman and female?

Men play tennis on the ATP tour. Women play tennis on the WTA tour. Where do males and females play? Or is it the way around and it's actually the male and female tours? If I decide my gender is female can I play women's tennis? Of course not, that's not how it works. Just ask the person in this thread who has actually been through gender identity change. I mean you don't get banned from playing on the WTA tour if you tall and muscular and have broad shoulders, or if you picked woodwork instead of home economics at school. You do if you have a dick, though.

Here's a (admittedly Wiki, but sourced) definition of masculinity:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity

Anyone who thinks gender is completely divorced from biological sex is probably a first year arts student.

The OP actually refers to changes to the census which will allow people to identify as male, female or other. That is their sex classification definitions. The 'other' classification and subsequent sub-questions are for intersex, transgender etc. people who don't feel they belong in either category of male and female. It's got nothing to do with gender roles.
The point was gender is not a biological fact. It's not. That's what I responded to (admittedly worded badly). Of course it's not completely vacant of a relationship with biological, but it's definitely not a biological fact. The terms gender and sex aren't interchangeable like he seemed to suggest
 

Lester Burnham

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The point was gender is not a biological fact. It's not. That's what I responded to (admittedly worded badly). Of course it's not completely vacant of a relationship with biological, but it's definitely not a biological fact. The terms gender and sex aren't interchangeable like he seemed to suggest

You keep telling us what gender is not. What do you think it is?
 

Lester Burnham

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actually it is. That's the agreed upon definitions. Gender is not biological. Literally couldn't be simpler.
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

There are no agreed upon definitions. Someone like Judith Butler would argue that the notion of biological sex is socially constructed so there is no real distinction between sex and gender. Then you've got your example from Monash Uni - there are two sexes and two genders which may or may not be correlated. Then there are those who believe that there are two sexes but gender is a spectrum. I believe Facebook is up to 71 genders to choose from.

But if we go with your preferred Monash definition, it is problematic in that the concept of feminine is subjectively defined by particular societies in time, place and politico/social environment. Feminine could mean any one of the many varied roles attributed to females across different cultures.

Gender is so subjectively defined it is effectively redundant. In contrast, many common differentiators in society are based on sex. It requires a man and a woman to produce a child, sport has separate competitions for men and women because of the physical differences, men are not allowed into female changing rooms.
 

DemonTim

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There are no agreed upon definitions. Someone like Judith Butler would argue that the notion of biological sex is socially constructed so there is no real distinction between sex and gender. Then you've got your example from Monash Uni - there are two sexes and two genders which may or may not be correlated. Then there are those who believe that there are two sexes but gender is a spectrum. I believe Facebook is up to 71 genders to choose from.

But if we go with your preferred Monash definition, it is problematic in that the concept of feminine is subjectively defined by particular societies in time, place and politico/social environment. Feminine could mean any one of the many varied roles attributed to females across different cultures.

Gender is so subjectively defined it is effectively redundant. In contrast, many common differentiators in society are based on sex. It requires a man and a woman to produce a child, sport has separate competitions for men and women because of the physical differences, men are not allowed into female changing rooms.
How is that problematic? That is literally one of the points made about gender, is that it is changed across different contexts?

There is a standard agreed upon definition, that currently stands, your example of butler is someone arguing AGAINST that definition. If the definition is not agreed, then she has no need to argue against the fact that it is the standard. She is attempting to change the standard, in pointing out her, you've just shown that there is a standard that is agreed upon by most.

I'm also unsure of your point, first you accused me of not saying what gender was, and once I do, you go off on tangents. The original mention of it by me, was the gender and sex aren't interchangeable words, and that gender is not a biological fact. None of what you have said changes or addresses that.
 

DemonTim

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Interestingly, our friend ITT kirsti underwent gender reassignment surgery.

How do you surgically alter something that isn't biological?
Oh dear god... I mean, I've seen stupid logic here, but this takes the cake

The point was "gender is a biological fact". Nowhere has it been argued it is nothing to do with biology, it's clearly a combination. I realise from seeing you post here that you refuse to actually read, but this is the most moronic statement I've seen on this board. You're a parody.
 

DemonTim

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You'll also note medically they're generally called sex realignment surgery ;)
 

DemonTim

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And so they should be, but I'm not the one who had the surgery and refers to it as such.
So you're potting kristi? Or attempting to prove a point?

*. Go and ask a footy player the medical name for half the procedures they go through. They'd probably say it incorrectly too, doesn't actually show anything
 
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No, I'm just pointing out how silly 'gender is a social construct' (and similar arguments) really is (are).

Man/male, woman/female are for the most part interchangeable words in society. Sex and gender are so closely linked that considering them one and the same while simplistic and not strictly correct is closer to the mark than considering them essentially unrelated.

I could go on Twitter and ask Rob Murphy about his knee reco but I'm not sure what value that would add to this discussion. Knee broken, knee operation, rehab exercises, knee fixed, can play footy again. That about sums that up. Not quite the same as a sex change operation, hormone therapy etc. which are designed to fundamentally and permanently alter your biological make up.

If gender was so unrelated to sex as some people think then there wouldn't really be need for gender (sex) reassignment procedures.
 

DemonTim

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No, I'm just pointing out how silly 'gender is a social construct' (and similar arguments) really is (are).

Man/male, woman/female are for the most part interchangeable words in society. Sex and gender are so closely linked that considering them one and the same while simplistic and not strictly correct is closer to the mark than considering them essentially unrelated.

I could go on Twitter and ask Rob Murphy about his knee reco but I'm not sure what value that would add to this discussion. Knee broken, knee operation, rehab exercises, knee fixed, can play footy again. That about sums that up. Not quite the same as a sex change operation, hormone therapy etc. which are designed to fundamentally and permanently alter your biological make up.

If gender was so unrelated to sex as some people think then there wouldn't really be need for gender (sex) reassignment procedures.
Who has said they are unrelated? Pretty sure both the link I provided I my point has said they're related.

Again. Original point was that gender is a biological fact. The user was attempting to use that to change the nature of it, to make their case for no surgery. You're jumping at shadows
 

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Can we at least agree that for someone born biologically male or female, to identify their sex as "other" is ridiculous?

DemonTim I really do think you are missing the point of what I was saying. I admitted I was wrong to put gender with sex in what I was saying, but I feel my point still stands if you remove gender from the start. Sex is a matter of biology is what I was saying, and I think you know that. Gender is for arts students to debate about, and to be honest, I don't really care about that debate. Since I believe it's all subjective anyway and people can be whoever they want to be, as long as they aren't lying to themselves, and others, about what their sex is.
 

DemonTim

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Can we at least agree that for someone born biologically male or female, to identify their sex as "other" is ridiculous?

DemonTim I really do think you are missing the point of what I was saying. I admitted I was wrong to put gender with sex in what I was saying, but I feel my point still stands if you remove gender from the start. Sex is a matter of biology is what I was saying, and I think you know that. Gender is for arts students to debate about, and to be honest, I don't really care about that debate. Since I believe it's all subjective anyway and people can be whoever they want to be, as long as they aren't lying to themselves, and others, about what their sex is.
So if they can't identify their sex as anything other than based on their biology, and gender is "for arts students to debate about", how exactly can they be "whoever they want to be".

Must be a lot of doctors out there who are arts students.
 

Lester Burnham

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How is that problematic? That is literally one of the points made about gender, is that it is changed across different contexts?

There is a standard agreed upon definition, that currently stands, your example of butler is someone arguing AGAINST that definition. If the definition is not agreed, then she has no need to argue against the fact that it is the standard. She is attempting to change the standard, in pointing out her, you've just shown that there is a standard that is agreed upon by most.

I'm also unsure of your point, first you accused me of not saying what gender was, and once I do, you go off on tangents. The original mention of it by me, was the gender and sex aren't interchangeable words, and that gender is not a biological fact. None of what you have said changes or addresses that.

I didn't accuse you of anything. Perhaps Facebook needs yet another gender - drama queen.

What is the basis for your claim that there is a standard, agreed upon, definition of gender?
 

DemonTim

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I didn't accuse you of anything. Perhaps Facebook needs yet another gender - drama queen.

What is the basis for your claim that there is a standard, agreed upon, definition of gender?
https://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html
https://www.ag.gov.au/Publications/...tGuidelinesontheRecognitionofSexandGender.PDF
http://www.who.int/gender-equity-rights/understanding/gender-definition/en/
http://www.iwtc.org/ideas/15_definitions.pdf

Pretty easily distinguishable common theme in the multiple sources

Inb4 "oh those sources don't count because..."
 

DemonTim

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We were once told to be happy with who we were but that doesn't make money.
We were also told the world was flat. That aboriginals weren't to be considered human and that lead was safe.
What's your point?
 

Lester Burnham

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lol You idiot. One of those papers you quoted includes a number of definitions of sex and gender including one by Judith Butler.
 
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