Centrelink debt notices - Turnbull govt reaches new levels of arse clown-ness

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Isnt this the Walmart philosophy? Pay them just enough to have them spending but not so much to break the bottom line

No. Walmart is the example of a company that doesn't pay it's customers enough for them to be able to shop there. You might be thinking of Ford, which is famous for deciding paying it's workers enough for them to also be customers gave the company a healthy future.

And as for 'breaking the bottom line' - Wal-mart makes BILLIONS. http://fortune.com/2013/11/12/why-wal-mart-can-afford-to-give-its-workers-a-50-raise/

Actually that is the future. Corporations without the hassle of human staff. Unfortunately none of them realise that if people have no jobs, they cannot then buy products. Could hurt their bottom line.

There is a thread in the general SRP thread (I think) about the basic income. It seems counter-intuitive, but like how companies and countries can be hugely valued despite running deficits, there does appear to be merit in a country simply giving everyone an allowance so that an economy can keep ticking when automation removes the bulk of jobs.

 

[Dan Baker]

it has caught some legitimate cheats and demonstrates the system is watching to all. This in itself prevents fraud as people behave different if they know there is monitoring.

and no that's not the case, usually a statement is provided with just figures. It is only once a dispute of claim, is received in response, that is detail provided. Importantly a debt collector or a legal process can't automatically start if the amount is communicated "as disputed".

Meanwhile the innocent are running around having citizens who have nothing to do with this getting statutory declarations to prove they were not living with a spouse. The time spent by the innocent and citizens not associated with this fiasco is ridiculous.

The impost government departments are putting on the public these days is ridiculous. Its seems everyday citizens are filling out more forms and government departments doing less. We even collect tax for the government department that does nothing to earn it, sometimes more tax goes tot he ATO than net profit goes to the business people worked our butts off to generate it.

What happened presumed innocent until proven guilty? Thats right, government are hypocrites to the law.

Government departments are outsourcing their workload expecting Australians to do the govt dept job for free. All we see is more licences, stamp duties and permits when it was all to be gone with GST.

A government of incompetence, trying to deflect. Back the **** off government!

Its getting ****** ridiculous

 

[Dan Baker]

And the problem is, we have an oligopoly on democracy which holds bipartisan corruption with politicians ordering prostitutes with credit cards, off buying apartments from party sponsors in Queensland. Flying over the country in private jets with just two people or girlfriends in flight.

The only people that need further auditing are the wealthy 100% wage lifetime pension pollies who pay for nothing and commensurate pay rises outside general CPI.

Deflection on the impoverished by the plunderers.

 

[Power Raid]

Meanwhile the innocent are running around having citizens who have nothing to do with this getting statutory declarations to prove they were not living with a spouse. The time spent by the innocent and citizens not associated with this fiasco is ridiculous.

The impost government departments are putting on the public these days is ridiculous. Its seems everyday citizens are filling out more forms and government departments doing less. We even collect tax for the government department that does nothing to earn it, sometimes more tax than net profit goes to the ATO we worked our butts off to generate.

What happened presumed innocent until proven guilty? Thats right, government are hypocrites to the law.

Government departments are outsourcing their workload expecting Australians to do the govt dept job for free. All we see is more licences, stamp duties and permits when it was all to be gone with GST.

A government of incompetence, trying to deflect. Back the **** off government!

Yep agree but you can't help those that can't help themselves.

All they need to do is respond by saying this assessment is in dispute. There is no need to run around.

 

[Dan Baker]

Yep agree but you can't help those that can't help themselves.

All they need to do is respond by saying this assessment is in dispute. There is no need to run around.

Well there is an hours work on one department. So what does replying with "This assessment is in dispute bring on"? Further audit?

Less red tape. Get out the govt chair and do some investigating.

My partner just informed me that one the persons in question, had Centrelink ring saying they had made a mistake.

The incompetence is astounding. All the unnecessary stress. They might receive pay packet each week. We have enough stress in our lives without government departments making accusations at a whim.

Centrelink are frickin useless

 

[Power Raid]

There is no need to run around.

Well there is an hours work on one department. So what does replying with "This assessment is in dispute bring on"? Further audit?

Less red tape. Get out the govt chair and do some investigating.[/QUOTE]

If Myers sent you a letter, or a Nigerian via an email, said you have an amount in dispute. What would you do?

The state has no further claim over a liability as Myers or a Nigerian.

Simply respond by saying the amount is disputed puts an end to a claim. The govt then has to run around to establish their claim and not the other way around.

The best way to put an end to the whole system is leading it to a stat dec. a long story here but this results in a breach of the law by the Dept. From here everyone in the dept is your servant and not the other way around.

This is the same whether the question is raised automatically or by an individual.

 

[Power Raid]

Well there is an hours work on one department. So what does replying with "This assessment is in dispute bring on"? Further audit?

Less red tape. Get out the govt chair and do some investigating.

My partner just informed me that one the persons in question, had Centrelink ring saying they had made a mistake.

The incompetence is astounding. All the unnecessary stress. They might receive pay packet each week. We have enough stress in our lives without government departments making accusations at a whim.

Centrelink are frickin useless

Oh and it means the govt has to do their own audit and produce findings in a court.

This won't happen unless there is material fraud.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

And the problem is, we have an oligopoly on democracy which holds bipartisan corruption with politicians ordering prostitutes with credit cards, off buying apartments from party sponsors in Queensland. Flying over the country in private jets with just two people or girlfriends in flight.

Don't paint all pollies with the same brush. That's how dumba*ses get elected, because people decide 'politicians' are the problem, rather than seeing how individual actions by parties or pollies hold up policy development (and then you end up with incompetents getting elected, like Trump or One Nation or PUP). Also, if you were unaware, PR is FOS.

 

[Dan Baker]

Well there is an hours work on one department. So what does replying with "This assessment is in dispute bring on"? Further audit?

Less red tape. Get out the govt chair and do some investigating.

If Myers sent you a letter, or a Nigerian via an email, said you have an amount in dispute. What would you do?
The state has no further claim over a liability as Myers or a Nigerian.
Simply respond by saying the amount is disputed puts an end to a claim. The govt then has to run around to establish their claim and not the other way around.
The best way to put an end to the whole system is leading it to a stat dec. a long story here but this results in a breach of the law by the Dept. From here everyone in the dept is your servant and not the other way around.
This is the same whether the question is raised automatically or by an individual.[/QUOTE]

An Australian governments incompetence is a bit different to scam mail. The bounding monster waves its wand with generality.
In a much earlier economic recession, I had Centrelink incorrectly remove money from my bank account. They send out letters with only phone to contact them. Hours of fruitless calling.

The latter item had nothing to do with receiving money. You think I could get hold of them on the phone. In 2017, the only contact option was phone.

They obviously didn't want it in writing so they don't incriminate themselves.

 

[Power Raid]

An Australian governments incompetence is a bit different to scam mail.

No it's not.

Government departments by there nature are incompetent and lazy. They have no greater right than anyone else.

The best way to line them up for failure is to request a meeting at your office at 5.05pm on friday or on the weekend.

By failing your repeated reasonable offers, the court will find them not to have acted reasonably to resolve the issue before wasting the courts time. This doesn't set the outcome but it does effect the outcome.

People have rights and should not relinquish them. Otherwise government will continue to erode your rights.

 

[Power Raid]

An Australian governments incompetence is a bit different to scam mail. The bounding monster waves its wand with generality.
In a much earlier economic recession, I had Centrelink incorrectly remove money from my bank account. They send out letters with only phone to contact them. Hours of fruitless calling.

The latter item had nothing to do with receiving money. You think I could get hold of them on the phone. In 2017, the only contact option was phone.

They obviously didn't want it in writing so they don't incriminate themselves.

A slightly different example is I had circa 10 cars registered in my name for the use of disadvantaged kids for work and training.

I was then the lucky recipient of speeding fines and red light cameras.

My response to the letters was "I don't know" and they tried to pursue the issue. Firstly an officer was charged for requesting a false declaration. Second was police harassment complaint and third was a cash settlement by the state and a ban placed on police on pulling over my vehicles or approaching me.

It is the police job to do police work, not mine. Regardless of a statute trying to push the issue onto the registered driver, it is still their job.

Centrelink deserve the same respect or lack thereof.

 

[Chief]

No. Walmart is the example of a company that doesn't pay it's customers enough for them to be able to shop there. You might be thinking of Ford, which is famous for deciding paying it's workers enough for them to also be customers gave the company a healthy future.

And as for 'breaking the bottom line' - Wal-mart makes BILLIONS. http://fortune.com/2013/11/12/why-wal-mart-can-afford-to-give-its-workers-a-50-raise/

There is a thread in the general SRP thread (I think) about the basic income. It seems counter-intuitive, but like how companies and countries can be hugely valued despite running deficits, there does appear to be merit in a country simply giving everyone an allowance so that an economy can keep ticking when automation removes the bulk of jobs.

One problem is that the companies making the money don't want to pay tax, so governments would need to borrow. Essentially putting citizens further into debt just to live.

You can't have a system that is supposed to nurture innovation when the investors in innovation then hide the profits so nobody else benefits.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

One problem is that the companies making the money don't want to pay tax, so governments would need to borrow. Essentially putting citizens further into debt just to live.

You can't have a system that is supposed to nurture innovation when the investors in innovation then hide the profits so nobody else benefits.

Companies paying a fair amount of tax would be happening now, if it wasn't for the gullible who believe that the idea of the globe being managed is part of a vast conspiracy run by lizard people or Jews or 'leftists'. They stop action on global warming, and proper taxation waits patiently in the queue.

Who does this benefit? The rich. Multi-nationals.

But apparently a few climate scientists earning relatively little, and the potential for rich countries to have to do more than poor countries, is 'the real conspiracy'. It beggars belief. 'Follow the money' is the usual guide for perceiving corruption. The rich are getting richer. The fossil fuel industry is doing very well. There's a $500BILLION Exxon (Tillerson) oil deal awaiting once Trump lifts the sanctions on Putin.

I don't know if people have gotten dumber, although the constant distractions of social media and the world's entertainment being at our fingertips may well have caused that. What I'd like to think is people are actually just as curious, maybe more-so, but the internet puts them a few clicks away from utter BS and so they're learning the wrong things.

 

[Moody Blue]

Don't paint all pollies with the same brush. That's how dumba*ses get elected, because people decide 'politicians' are the problem, rather than seeing how individual actions by parties or pollies hold up policy development (and then you end up with incompetents getting elected, like Trump or One Nation or PUP). Also, if you were unaware, PR is FOS.

Really? Well let's look at some of the rorts.

We have had Federal & State speakers absolutely rorting the system Peter Slipper, Bronwyn Bishop, Telmo Languiller Deputy speaker Don Nardella. Then we had David Feeney (Labor) who forgot he owned a $2.3 million dollar house. Geoff Shaw(Liberal) who misused his car, and then Steve Herbert (Labor) who chauffeured his dogs in a tax payer car. Then we have the winter fact finding trips that MP's embark upon, which is nothing more than a subsidized holiday. What about the rorting of Federal accommodation costs? Let's not even go to NSW and the rorts and outright criminal behaviour that MP's have undertaken over the years. Finally we have the farce of Australia having 5 Prime Ministers in the space of 8 years. Then we also have all of the Public service rorts that go unreported. The Dept of Defence is a perfect example. Why do Public Servants receive 15% super, when we owe 500 billion dollars?

If Australians had the choice whether they wanted to vote or not, I suspect that up to 40% of people would not vote.....and with good reason.
It is time that people just protest by not voting at the next election. By all means show up, get you name ticked off and then tear up your ballot. How can you fix all of the problems our country is facing, when the people entrusted to make it work, treat it as a rort.

I put to you that the major Parties have been appointing incompetents for many years. What possible advantage for Australia does Wayne Swan serve? Under his watch he stuffed up our economy, and now hangs around getting his salary and waiting to get his fat pension.

You get the politicians you deserve.

 

[Bokonon_]

Mmm.
I'll say up front I lean to the left and am further to left than the greens on Asylum seeker policy.
I have voted for the NSW Liberal government because of the screaming need for competent administration. I haven't had cause to regret it.
I regard Howard as a racist in his early career calls on reducing immigration. I do respect the administration of his governnent though. I worked for the ATO for a period in his era, and the integrity was obvious. It went backwards under labour.
I regard policy and administration as separate KPI's for a government. I expected the Turnbull government to take a humanist line for some reason, and this was clearly naive.

I deal frequently with people going through the age pension app process now. Traditionally the majority of applications are waved through, with audit by exception. In the last couple of years I have dealt with a lot of very distressed people who expected the process to be humane, confronting a bureaucracy that seems to want people to give up, because it's too hard.
The demands escalate and change direction through the phases of the application, without warning.

Debt collection without rationally establishing a debt is consistent with the general changes in the integrity of government administration under this government. I think it will be reversed very shortly with todays polls showing a 10% gap in support between libs-labour. I also think it wont work and if you dont want a labour government, at least you've got plenty of time to learn to live with one.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

No. Walmart is the example of a company that doesn't pay it's customers enough for them to be able to shop there. You might be thinking of Ford, which is famous for deciding paying it's workers enough for them to also be customers gave the company a healthy future.

And as for 'breaking the bottom line' - Wal-mart makes BILLIONS. http://fortune.com/2013/11/12/why-wal-mart-can-afford-to-give-its-workers-a-50-raise/

There is a thread in the general SRP thread (I think) about the basic income. It seems counter-intuitive, but like how companies and countries can be hugely valued despite running deficits, there does appear to be merit in a country simply giving everyone an allowance so that an economy can keep ticking when automation removes the bulk of jobs.

This is true.

Walmart workers are the single largest pool of medicaid recipients, and food stamp recipients.

Off memory, the govt subsidizes each stores low wages by around $1m per annum

 

[Ned_Flanders]

A slightly different example is I had circa 10 cars registered in my name for the use of disadvantaged kids for work and training.

I was then the lucky recipient of speeding fines and red light cameras.

My response to the letters was "I don't know" and they tried to pursue the issue. Firstly an officer was charged for requesting a false declaration. Second was police harassment complaint and third was a cash settlement by the state and a ban placed on police on pulling over my vehicles or approaching me.

It is the police job to do police work, not mine. Regardless of a statute trying to push the issue onto the registered driver, it is still their job.

Centrelink deserve the same respect or lack thereof.

In vic this example is dead

Companies used the "we dont know" excuse to avoid speeding fines for pool cars for years.

Now the person who had the companies are required to advise who had the car logged at that time, or they get a.major whack.

I dont mind this just because it was being completely abused

 

[JackOutback]

In vic this example is dead

Companies used the "we dont know" excuse to avoid speeding fines for pool cars for years.

Now the person who had the companies are required to advise who had the car logged at that time, or they get a.major whack.

I dont mind this just because it was being completely abused

True also for WA; the onus is on the car owner to provide the name of the guilty party or pay the fine themselves.

 

[Moody Blue]

Mmm.
I'll say up front I lean to the left and am further to left than the greens on Asylum seeker policy.

Hmm a lefty with some common sense. It is easy to be cruel or pig headed towards asylum seekers; until you come face to face with the people and see their predicament. Most people don't want to see this and consequently don't have to deal with it. I suspect you have probably seen your fair share, first or second hand. Unfortunately there are too many in the Greens that care more about foreigners than they do about their own people.
Sarah Hanson-Young would let everyone in, and ofcourse the tax payer would be forced to pay the billions and billions it would cost.

We need to protect our borders, and one of the reasons is because for the past 50 years our politicians have been narrow minded, with little or no vision for this country. They refuse to develop infrastructure, and try and break up the congestion in the cities. John Howard could have recession proofed Australia for 30 years if he had embarked on an infrastructure development program. No debt and 50 billion dollars in the Bank he could have done so much. Instead he gave us a middle class welfare, in effect a generational liability. Good luck to any Govt that tries to scrap that hand out.

The country is so large with so much potential for expansion. It just requires a little bit of courage, foresight and leadership to make it happen. You look at how Israel has reclaimed land that was once desert, and you tell me we cannot do the same and start moving inland. If we used our resources properly we could get water to the areas that need it, and develop new farm lands and population centres that could quite easily accommodate a growing population with bold engineering projects and develop new industries. Instead we just go further and further into debt, and our politicians trying to buy votes with welfare bribes. Japan has had the bullet train since 1964, and yet we have an outdated train system that was built in the 1950's.......and in Melbourne we still don't have a train that goes to the Airport. Unbelievable!!!

 

[Chief]

it has caught some legitimate cheats and demonstrates the system is watching to all. This in itself prevents fraud as people behave different if they know there is monitoring.

and no that's not the case, usually a statement is provided with just figures. It is only once a dispute of claim, is received in response, that is detail provided. Importantly a debt collector or a legal process can't automatically start if the amount is communicated "as disputed".

Come on mate.

You have people spending hours and hours on the phone trying to sort this s**t out.

If it was rich people you'd get no end of whinging about "compliance costs".




On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

Really? Well let's look at some of the rorts.

We have had Federal & State speakers absolutely rorting the system Peter Slipper, Bronwyn Bishop, Telmo Languiller Deputy speaker Don Nardella. Then we had David Feeney (Labor) who forgot he owned a $2.3 million dollar house. Geoff Shaw(Liberal) who misused his car, and then Steve Herbert (Labor) who chauffeured his dogs in a tax payer car. Then we have the winter fact finding trips that MP's embark upon, which is nothing more than a subsidized holiday. What about the rorting of Federal accommodation costs? Let's not even go to NSW and the rorts and outright criminal behaviour that MP's have undertaken over the years. Finally we have the farce of Australia having 5 Prime Ministers in the space of 8 years. Then we also have all of the Public service rorts that go unreported. The Dept of Defence is a perfect example. Why do Public Servants receive 15% super, when we owe 500 billion dollars?

If Australians had the choice whether they wanted to vote or not, I suspect that up to 40% of people would not vote.....and with good reason.
It is time that people just protest by not voting at the next election. By all means show up, get you name ticked off and then tear up your ballot. How can you fix all of the problems our country is facing, when the people entrusted to make it work, treat it as a rort.

I put to you that the major Parties have been appointing incompetents for many years. What possible advantage for Australia does Wayne Swan serve? Under his watch he stuffed up our economy, and now hangs around getting his salary and waiting to get his fat pension.

You get the politicians you deserve.

Nothing you said there changes what I said. Politicians who rort are easily in the minority. You don't like the research trips - fair enough. Is it that different to the amount of people who make BS claims about work deductions on their taxes? Or who spend more money because they know their company is paying for it, not themselves...? Making it a % rebate might make people and politicians do it less.

AKA there are solutions if you don't like the way politicians are remunerated.

There is NO good reason not to vote. It is the main way we change the way we are led. As much as people bag polling, there's a reason why politicians pay attention to it. Even if you think it's voting for the lesser of two evils, the way you say you will vote does alter the course of our country. We had 4 PMs in the space of 8 years, with Rudd twice. That isn't necessarily a farce. The people didn't like those PMs and the parties reacted to that. The only exception was Rudd's ousting the first time, which was done off the back of him apparently being very hard to work with for politicians, staffers, and civil servants. It's far from clear that we missed out on good policies because of that decision. He did well with the GFC, but was considered a bit wishy-washy on policies as he tried to remain popular, and the most common complaint we have about leaders is that they don't lead and are too poll-focused.

The end result of course of all the change is that the country, after succesfully dodging the GFC under Labor, has basically been treading water on some big issues. Carbon abatement policies were put in, then they were taken out and replaced by payments to polluters. Economic reform has been minor, but even the Liberals have started to accept they may have to put taxes back up. We're slowly getting there. The world continues to heat and maybe we'll slowly get there, especially as China is keen to take on the mantle of world leader now America has voted in a buffoon.

But then you think Wayne Swan "stuffed up our economy" and are overly concerned by Hanson-Young, so I'm not sure how you view the world beyond what some right-wingers tweet. Latham (before he became an obsessive jilted lover) already forced Howard to remove the generous politician super scheme. But Howard didn't make it retrospective so a few of them still get it. Otherwise the people have already spoken and the politicians had to respond. The system works.

No train to the airport, but there is Skybus, which is regular and effective. There isn't a major political pressure to change, because we can come and go from the airport relatively easily.

 

[greennick]

There is a thread in the general SRP thread (I think) about the basic income. It seems counter-intuitive, but like how companies and countries can be hugely valued despite running deficits, there does appear to be merit in a country simply giving everyone an allowance so that an economy can keep ticking when automation removes the bulk of jobs.

I am all for basic income, however it won't come in until we have a higher level of automation than we currently do. Further, there will likely be significant periods of inequality in the meantime unless we find a way to balance the needs of the working with the needs of those feeling the loss of middle class jobs. It could be a very difficult time for humanity, particularly in places like the US.

 

[greennick]

Come on mate.

You have people spending hours and hours on the phone trying to sort this s**t out.

If it was rich people you'd get no end of whinging about "compliance costs".




On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

When we double dipped and got the paid parental leave, my wife noticed some payments were wrong, they were too high. She called Centrelink and they had no idea what the payments were, despite them clearly being from Centrelink. After spending hours on the phone and getting nowhere she gave up, putting the payments aside. They then sent an overpayment notice mid last year, yeah, no s**t. Luckily for us, it was for the exact right amount.

Absolute waste of time. This isn't the Liberal party's fault though, the dysfunction of Centrelink is a non-partisan policy.

 

[Ratts of Tobruk]

There's a neat theory that business-funded parties like the Liberals deliberately cut services to make them act poorly so they can more easily justify outsource them. It's a timeline that's happened a lot before.

I am all for basic income, however it won't come in until we have a higher level of automation than we currently do. Further, there will likely be significant periods of inequality in the meantime unless we find a way to balance the needs of the working with the needs of those feeling the loss of middle class jobs. It could be a very difficult time for humanity, particularly in places like the US.

Of course we require higher levels of automation. The US will struggle due to it's low emphasis on equality, but it has plenty of space to bring in more Commonwealth-style policies to combat that. The most obvious way for them to save money would be to reduce military, but they could easily benefit from an international tax protocol that stops it's many highly-successful businesses from whisking their profits offshore. They still attract the world's best and brightest on the regular, although - once again - the election of Trump is potentially a huge circuit-breaker on what would otherwise have taken a long time to dissipate. What a really, really dumb decision. In that regard, let's hope the Russians were even more involved that we think now.

As for other economies, I don't think there is necessarily going to be a "very difficult time for humanity". Like with our "recession we had to have", there are some older workers who will lose jobs and not get another (I think in Megalogenis' doco it was said that 50% of workers in that recession didn't work again, but it may have been something more specific, e.g. like manufacturing workers), but overall there are still lots of reasons for health. Half the world is still to develop. That's a lot of potential customers. There may be a relative drop in quality of life, but compared to how we live now it should still be an improvement. That's how tech progress tends to work. I know there are bad figures around about people having shorter life-spans in newer generations for the first time in a long time, but to me that seems really obviously to be related to bad health practices and - once again - America's poor system of govt than makes medicine out-of-reach of poor people.

Australia's biggest threat is global warming (droughts, loss of arable land, loss to tourism with high water/land temps in the top half, e.g. Barrier Reef, loss of coastal infrastructure and wealth, substantial drop in value of coal, etc.). Tech should solve that, but will it be in a big enough, quick enough way?

 

[greennick]

True also for WA; the onus is on the car owner to provide the name of the guilty party or pay the fine themselves.

One of my acquaintances was a bit of a crack whore speeder, her Dad owned a shitty second hand car dealer, so she always drove cars from his lot. For ages she thought she was hot s**t as she was immune from speeding camera tickets. They racked up and up. Then the cops came knocking, they said, "We know you know who it is, it is the same girl in every picture." Her dad denied knowing who it was. They staked out for a few days until she rocked up and they arrested her on the spot. She lost her licence 6 times in a row from the accumulation of points. They were generous and she still lost her licence for 2 years. It was particularly funny after she was such a smug campaigner when others would get speeding fines.