Politics Centrelink

[Bombermania]

Makes no sense at all, private schools require less government funding because they receive large amounts in fees directly from the parents. Government schools are almost totally funded by government money. The private system costs the government less money so we should have as many children in it as possible.

If you don't spend money on non-government entities then that money has not been spent and can then be reallocated to tax cuts, debt repayment or other spending.

 

[Crankyhawk]

You have just done a very good of contradicting yourself. You just said people don't get to decide where tax goes but you have decided it should not go to private schools, make up you mind please ?

I have decided that as a matter of better spending priorities (not to give government money to private schools) because saving $ and balancing budget is, generally, good.
Individuals don't get to say how their taxes are spent though. So a parent of a private school child doesn't get to say "I don't want my taxes going to government schools" meaning (the way I read you post) that they want a lower tax rate in exchange for sending children to private school.

 

[Crankyhawk]

If you don't spend money on non-government entities then that money has not been spent and can then be reallocated to tax cuts, debt repayment or other spending.

I think you have misinterpreted his point, which is that the money not spent would mean more children in govenrnment school and therefore higher expenditure. When in fact what happens is just overcrowded classes and not a lot extra spent per child.

 

[Bombermania]

I think you have misinterpreted his point, which is that the money not spent would mean more children in govenrnment school and therefore higher expenditure. When in fact what happens is just overcrowded classes and not a lot extra spent per child.

I know the point Geelong is making, however will the parents that want to give their kids a private school education, really all of a sudden move their kids to a public school, maybe in some cases, however I am not sure it will be widespread considering the difference in costs between a private school and state school education is already substantial.

 

[Lebbo73]

Thank **** for that , now i won't have to suffer your sooky little faux outrage again !

Who’s the one with the faux outrage?

 

[NSWCROW]

Who’s the one with the faux outrage?
View attachment 506701

Wasn't me getting pissy.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

If you don't spend money on non-government entities then that money has not been spent and can then be reallocated to tax cuts, debt repayment or other spending.

Children have to go to either a private or public school and the private school is cheaper for the government which is why we need to encourage more students into private schools.

Cut from public schools first because they cost more.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

In order to achieve lower deficits, lower spending and lower taxes, then you first remove funding for non-government entities, this includes private schools.

You might be surprised by just how much government contributes to the operations of private enterprise.

I don't think you appreciate how much the government uses non-government entities.

 

[Bombermania]

I don't think you appreciate how much the government uses non-government entities.

It seems to be the people who bang on about debt & deficit and the level of taxes that don't seem to appreciate how much the government spends on non-government entities. There is an argument for and against that spending however in any budget management discussion, it needs to be brought into the discussion.

 

[Bombermania]

Children have to go to either a private or public school and the private school is cheaper for the government which is why we need to encourage more students into private schools.

Cut from public schools first because they cost more.

I don't think its the job of the government to promote private schools, the private schools should be promoting themselves, they should be showing better value for money to parents rather than falling back onto government.

If Government followed business best practice then it wouldn't be offering to fund a competitor to its own product, which is the case in education, most parents who send their kids to private schools are unlikely to switch their kids to state schools as they are attracted to the product.

The real issue is budget management, if you place less importance on level of taxes or the level of debt then you could continue with the existing funding arrangements, however if the focus is to reduce outlays then the first place to start is all non-government areas.

In business, when the cycle turns against the business, the first thing to cut back on is the non-core areas of operations, and in the case of government, supporting private education could be considered one such area.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I don't think its the job of the government to promote private schools, the private schools should be promoting themselves, they should be showing better value for money to parents rather than falling back onto government.

If Government followed business best practice then it wouldn't be offering to fund a competitor to its own product, which is the case in education, most parents who send their kids to private schools are unlikely to switch their kids to state schools as they are attracted to the product.

The real issue is budget management, if you place less importance on level of taxes or the level of debt then you could continue with the existing funding arrangements, however if the focus is to reduce outlays then the first place to start is all non-government areas.

In business, when the cycle turns against the business, the first thing to cut back on is the non-core areas of operations, and in the case of government, supporting private education could be considered one such area.

If the real issue is debt management than why wouldn't you cut back on public school expenditure ? they are more expensive. You can start by shutting down and selling off smaller size public schools.

Put a tax levy on people who send their kids to public schools or take from their welfare payments .

Private education is the governments friend because it is cheaper than public education. So on top of increasing taxes and taking money out of welfare payments for those in the public sector you can also offer tax cuts for those in the private system.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

I have decided that as a matter of better spending priorities (not to give government money to private schools) because saving $ and balancing budget is, generally, good.
Individuals don't get to say how their taxes are spent though. So a parent of a private school child doesn't get to say "I don't want my taxes going to government schools" meaning (the way I read you post) that they want a lower tax rate in exchange for sending children to private school.

Number of ways you can go about.

Make those who use the public system pay a tax levy and give a tax cut to those in the private system would be one.

Again private is cheaper for the government than the public system.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

OK Stupids.

We want all our kids educated and we don't want to rely on missionaries or something, and since we can't all afford the costs of pay your way education, then the government have put a public system in place funded by the slush fund that is revenue. Most people understand this and see the rationale.

Yes the private schools take some of the load off the public system, and they get some funding due to this. Thats it!!!! No tax cuts.
You get to pay less fee's because the government have provided some funding.

Further the government even have high achiever schools ( NOSSAL for example ) so that bright kids in the public system get a chance to overachieve without resorting to this sort of debacle.

 

[Bombermania]

If the real issue is debt management than why wouldn't you cut back on public school expenditure ? they are more expensive. You can start by shutting down and selling off smaller size public schools.

Put a tax levy on people who send their kids to public schools or take from their welfare payments .

Private education is the governments friend because it is cheaper than public education. So on top of increasing taxes and taking money out of welfare payments for those in the public sector you can also offer tax cuts for those in the private system.

In other words you want the government to fund private enterprise which surely goes against the idea of government getting out of the way.

If government is providing the capital to private schools then in time the private school will become answerable to government, therefore you are extending the influence of government beyond the public sector into the private sector

The overall cost of private schools is not cheaper to the parents who send their kids to them versus the cost of sending them to a state school.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

In other words you want the government to fund private enterprise which surely goes against the idea of government getting out of the way.

If government is providing the capital to private schools then in time the private school will become answerable to government, therefore you are extending the influence of government beyond the public sector into the private sector

The overall cost of private schools is not cheaper to the parents who send their kids to them versus the cost of sending them to a state school.

If a private enterprise provides a commodity such as education that would have otherwise had to be provided by the government than yes they are entitled to some government funding.

Are you suggesting a private construction company should not be paid by the government for building a bridge ?

The logic behind government paying a private enterprise money is that the private enterprise can provide a commodity more efficiently and at a better quality than the government can. Private schools are cheaper to the government and those who pay the fees do so voluntarily with the opinion rightly or wrongly that its of a better quality.

 

[Rob]

I know the point Geelong is making, however will the parents that want to give their kids a private school education, really all of a sudden move their kids to a public school, maybe in some cases, however I am not sure it will be widespread considering the difference in costs between a private school and state school education is already substantial.

You cant look at private schools as a collective. There's a massive difference between the top end private schools and a vast majority of catholic schools that charge a third to a quarter of the fees of the former.
If an average catholic school was to lose it's funding and go from charging 6 grand a year to 15, 20 or 25 grand a year then it would be incredibly likely that a massive chunk of those students would go to a government school.

 

[Chief]

You cant look at private schools as a collective. There's a massive difference between the top end private schools and a vast majority of catholic schools that charge a third to a quarter of the fees of the former.
If an average catholic school was to lose it's funding and go from charging 6 grand a year to 15, 20 or 25 grand a year then it would be incredibly likely that a massive chunk of those students would go to a government school.

And get those kids out of the religious school system?

Sounds good to me.

The teachers won’t vanish into thin air. The facilities won’t collapse overnight.

The buildings and personnel will all be available for use, but the owner will change.

I say nationalise the whole system.

Kids in rich areas will still get better stuff as the parents will fund-raise.

All that will happen is fewer $200,000 fountains will be built.

 

[fleabitten]

Further the government even have high achiever schools ( NOSSAL for example ) so that bright kids in the public system get a chance to overachieve without resorting to this sort of debacle.

My kid got into one of those schools. A lot of the students are from families that could clearly afford private school (most of my daughter' friends were in private schools before they were accepted to the select entry school). Great idea to give high-achieving working class kids a chance, but I think in practice the middle class stole most of the spots. Can't blame them for trying to save some money but it kinda sucks. Seems like about 80% of the kids are children of wealthy Chinese or Indians.

 

[Chief]

My kid got into one of those schools. A lot of the students are from families that could clearly afford private school (most of my daughter' friends were in private schools before they were accepted to the select entry school). Great idea to give high-achieving working class kids a chance, but I think in practice the middle class stole most of the spots. Can't blame them for trying to save some money but it kinda sucks. Seems like about 80% of the kids are children of wealthy Chinese or Indians.

Check out “catchment fraud” and Brisbane State High.




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[Crankyhawk]

Number of ways you can go about.

Make those who use the public system pay a tax levy and give a tax cut to those in the private system would be one.

Again private is cheaper for the government than the public system.

Politically impossible. Unless you hit high income earners only to force them to go private... No still wouldn't work.

 

[fleabitten]

Check out “catchment fraud” and Brisbane State High.

Crazy stuff.

She said she had heard horror stories about the lengths some parents went to so their children could attend Brisbane State High, including buying investment properties in the area and pretending to live there.

"The kids go there [to the properties] after school and turn taps on and run electricity so they look like they're living there," she said.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

My kid got into one of those schools. A lot of the students are from families that could clearly afford private school (most of my daughter' friends were in private schools before they were accepted to the select entry school). Great idea to give high-achieving working class kids a chance, but I think in practice the middle class stole most of the spots. Can't blame them for trying to save some money but it kinda sucks. Seems like about 80% of the kids are children of wealthy Chinese or Indians.

So are you claiming they bribe their way into them?

OR
Maybe parental nurturing and encouragement is a lot to do with how well kids do at school.
Middle class didn't "Steal" the spots , they earned the spots.
I've known plenty of lower income people who were low income because they didn't give a **** about their life, their kids lives etc.

Bumped into them in the supermarket , drinking from can's of UDL while they shopped, they were buying frozen pies because they'd run out of food in the house. Their kids were what i'd call "good kids" but they don't stand a chance at shooting for the stars.

Culture

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Politically impossible. Unless you hit high income earners only to force them to go private... No still wouldn't work.

Exactly the conundrum that private health is going through.
People are bailing out and overloading the public system.

Should we cry because some rich Chinese guy got better attention for his heart attack than some poor crack addict who tried to punch the triage?

 

[fleabitten]

So are you claiming they bribe their way into them?

OR
Maybe parental nurturing and encouragement is a lot to do with how well kids do at school.
Middle class didn't "Steal" the spots , they earned the spots.

The whole idea of the schools is to give a higher quality education to high achieving kids who can't afford private school fees. Like I said, those people are just trying to save themselves money and you can't blame them, but I would say the majority of kids in the schools are not the kids that the schools were created to serve. They are kids that would be going to private school if they hadn't gotten into a select entry school.

I've known plenty of lower income people who were low income because they didn't give a **** about their life, their kids lives etc.

Bumped into them in the supermarket , drinking from can's of UDL while they shopped, they were buying frozen pies because they'd run out of food in the house. Their kids were what i'd call "good kids" but they don't stand a chance at shooting for the stars.

Culture

Yeah I'm well aware of the existence of those people. I have several families in my street who would probably fit the description. The ones that have "good kids" who are putting in a lot of effort at school and getting good grades, those are the kids the select entry schools should be serving. But such kids are a minority in those schools.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Exactly the conundrum that private health is going through.
People are bailing out and overloading the public system.

Should we cry because some rich Chinese guy got better attention for his heart attack than some poor crack addict who tried to punch the triage?

Emergency departments in private aren't even covered by insurance so public EDs will remain overloaded. Then you get increasing restrictions and exclusions making many private health junk products