CEY: training camp ripped the heart out of Adelaide Crows

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John Who said:
The reason why I don't want to talk in public my job status because I want a certain level of anonymity, and I feel I have the rights as a member to say I work in the health field, and that's enough. Also I really don't take much notice what people's actual jobs are because I only care for the point of discussion, not how much degrees or diplomas they have.

I could say I'm a lawyer, a counselor or a doctor. What difference would it really make? There's good, bad and dodgy no matter what job you have.

And I reiterate, you can dislike what I have to say, or ignore, or click on the ignore button. However, there is no room for ongoing personal attacks because it results in black and white arguments, when reality tells you there are many shades of grey. Besides, it's actually against forum rules to continually attack a person. It's cyber bullying no matter which way you look at it, if it's on a persistent level. I have never pretended to know more than what I claim to know. This is why I don't contribute in trade talks much, or 18 year old draftees..it ain't my field.
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You: People jump on me for no reason all the time.

Everyone: Actually, we just really want you to stop claiming to have professional skills that you plainly don't have, and then using those false claims to attempt to claim expert status in every thread.

You: Absolutely no reason at all. It's probably cyber bullying. I would know, I'm an expert in a relevant field and...

Everyone: FFS.
 
Godallblighty said:
Just for the sake of your own sanity Shadow89, John's posting is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect in action. You're not the first person to beat your head against that wall but thanks for giving it a go. It's worth it sometimes just to highlight the inanity.
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The trains don't go where this bloke lives. He's ignored now (admittedly indulged him longer than I should of). Dunning-Kruger effect is a perfect diagnosis of his behaviour. I weep for you guys having to deal with this sort of posting on a consistent basis. Must be mentally exhausting dealing with someone who thinks they're never wrong. Even on the most basic things such as dictionary definitions or logical inferences.

Huge similarity between his posts and Donald Trump's tweets. Both never say/do/think a thing wrong, even when they are constantly proved otherwise. They also act like massive babies when they're critiqued and held to account. This is narcissistic behaviour 101. I know it happens, but it still always amazes me when I'm confronted with it.
 
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Southerntakeover said:
Lol, no. It has one meaning. It's just you didnt know what that is, and instead of admitting that like a decent person you want to pretend that you were thinking of the really advanced secret meaning.
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Like clockwork. Haven't seen his response as he's ignored, but the fact that he's said there's a double meaning, is just not surprising in the least. Literally said he would do that, and he did it. If someone can't admit they're wrong on even the smallest things, then you know that they're largely disingenuous. His reaction is an absolute case in point.
 

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Shadow89 said:
Like clockwork. Haven't seen his response as he's ignored, but the fact that he's said there's a double meaning, is just not surprising in the least. Literally said he would do that, and he did it. If someone can't admit they're wrong on even the smallest things, then you know that they're largely disingenuous. His reaction is an absolute case in point.
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I put up with his posting for a long time because it was often amusing to see his mental gymnastics when called out. I got sick of his spam about a month ago, put him on ignore, and am now having a much more satisfying experience on BF. I didn't have to read a single one of his posts to enjoy your take down.
 
jaytex said:
Anyone else starting to get flashbacks to the time that Alex, just before his timely demise, made a thread on "What matters more: the post, or the poster posting the post?"
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I miss Alex, if only he understood that he could just open up a new account under a different name.
 
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Shadow89 said:
Reading through this thread as a neutral observer (and someone who has followed this saga quite closely due to my experience with mental health), I have to say, that most of what you post is more speculative and fictitious than the so called 'speculation' and 'fiction' you purport to be arguing against.

I want to preface this by saying, that I apologise for the length of this post, but you have so many outlandish statements, that I feel I have to address them given a lot of them aren't based on empirical evidence.

Point in case, let's start with the above comment to demonstrate your egotistic attitude in this thread - "the reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification."

A quick google of 'character assassination will give you several dictionary definitions:


character assassination
noun

the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.
"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"

********************

Character assassination definition is - the slandering of a person usually with the intention of destroying public confidence in that person.

*********************

Described as “the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel” (this is a definition used by law)

**********************

A character assassination is a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, especially by criticizing them in an unfair and dishonest way

**********************

Given that the poster was pointing out how you didn't have a 'good' reputation to begin with, their interpretation is correct. Yours is not. You can't destroy someone's reputation if they don't have much of one to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to address some of your more offensive posts. Let's start with your understanding of trauma and how 'immediate reactions should usually follow.'

Trauma is different for nearly every single different person, but one of the most common narratives in those who suffer trauma, is the 'trigger point' that sets off this trauma. For a war veteran it might be the sound of heavy rain during a storm, that reflects artillery fire during their time in the military. For a child who was abused during their formative years, it could be specific words, certain tones, actions committed by those in the present, or merely being in contact with their abuser in some form. For a rape victim it could be the way a new lover touches them in a similar fashion, or if a similar case appears in the news or through word of mouth - friends, family etc. The trigger point for Adelaide players, appeared to be in Round 10, 2018.

The narrative suggests that players, while incensed and upset with their treatment post 2017 GF at the Mind Camp, were still able to play as a 'group' post camp/2017 GF. A frank and open discussion was had early on, that discussed how players felt and how they were unhappy with some aspects of the camp. This led to Pyke assuring the players that ties would be severed with the camp, and everyone moves on. The 'trigger' then happens sometime in between Round 9 and Round 10 2018, when it's revealed that players have been told that, contrary to prior statements, that management has decided they will be attending the camp again. The proof then reveals itself over the coming 18 months that leads to a fall from 1st and Runner up Premiers, to 12th and 11th and a complete rebuild.

Your next offensive statement, is your attitude towards how players reacted and a 'nothing to see here' approach. Let's address first the fact that you only have 1 Indigenous player remaining on your list from those who attended the 2017 camp - Wayne Milera. Ben Davis was on your list at the time, but there was no indication that rookies or new draftees would have been involved in the camp.

Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts and Cam Ellis-Yolman, have all left your club in the past 2 years. Cameron cited the Adelaide 'football bubble', as his reason to leave, which is a fair enough reason. It's Betts and Ellis-Yolman that provide the most scrutiny, however.

Betts, an Adelaide native, returns to your club in 2013, citing 'family reasons' and 'wanting to settle down', as his reasoning. He plays 4 years of remarkable footy, and earns a 3 year contract extension in 2017 - unheard of for your club to do this at his age, apparently.

2 years later, he leaves, while still contracted, back to his original club in Carlton. This is amid reports that his wife was 'incensed' at the treatment of Eddie, and other Indigenous players. Logic dictates, that only a player who is deeply unhappy, is going to leave his home town where he's settled down and started his family (like he said he wanted), in order to return to the place away from home where he began. He's also not going to a club like Richmond, but a perennial cellar dweller, in Carlton. This suggests a player that does not care where he goes, whether it be for success or not, as long as it's away from Adelaide.

It is Ellis-Yolman, and his revealing comments however, that provide the most scrutiny. Contrary to your objections and your statements about 'speculation', CEY actually said, on air, that the camp left the players divided and 'ripped the heart out' of the playing group. That is not hearsay, those are his words. For you to trivialize that, and essentially downgrade his feelings towards a situation he ACTUALLY experienced - unlike you a random big footy commentator - is insanely disrespectful and frankly a little insane, given the plethora of evidence available. This has now been followed up by comments from Greenwood that state:

"I didn't agree with all the decisions they made. After 2017 I could feel things were bubbling and it was only a matter of time before the lid came off."

That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events. This is all the while, while your club is being independently reviewed, due to the publicly revealed issues going on within the club.

So to recap, this is now the sequence of events you have laid out in front of you (not speculation, actual verifiable data):

- 2017 GF, you guys lose the Grand Final and your mental fortitude is questioned

- Post 2017 GF, Charlie Cameron is traded to Brisbane and Jake Lever to Melbourne. Bryce Gibbs is traded in from Carlton.

- Post 2017 GF, you guys go on a pre-season camp with Collective Mind, and return to pre-season training.

- 2018, you lose your first game against Essendon, and go on to win 6 of the next 8.

- 2018, Round 10, you are absolutely belted by Melbourne, and don't even look like caring for most of the match.

- 2018, Post Round 10, it emerges that a sit down was had in Round 5 with players amidst rumours emerging surrounding events at the Collective Mind camp. Ties were severed to the camp after this meeting.

- 2018, it emerges that in between Round 9 and 10, Don Pyke reinstated ties to the Collective Mind camp, and said that players would be attending again.

- 2018, Rounds 11-23, you guys go on to have a 6-6 W/L record, and 12-10 overall W/L record. You miss finals marginally, after finish equal on points with 9, 10 and 11, but lowest on percentage.

- 2018, Mitch McGovern requests a trade to Carlton, the wooden spooner. This is despite being contracted until end of 2020. He cites the 'failed pre-season camp' as 'one of the reasons for the trade.' He also cites his relationship with assistant coach David Teague at Adelaide, as another reason.

- 2019, more details emerge about the camp. Crows miss finals again and finish 11th. This is despite having a decent injury run compared to the previous year. Lacklustre efforts show on field, and a disconnect appears to show between the players and the club.

- 2019 post-season, an independent review is ordered and interviews are conducted with players and staff that are kept confidential. Outcome finds that Brett Burton and Scott Camporeale will no longer be required at the AFC.

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood, Alex Keath, Eddie Betts, Sam Jacobs, Cam Ellis-Yolmen, all request trades or are 'forced out' for various reasons.

- 2019 post-season, Cam Ellis-Yolmen reveals that the Mind Camp, 'ripped the heart out of players' and 'divided the playing group.'

- 2019 post-season, Eddie Betts is asked about these comments in an interview and does not deny them. Rather he classily says that 'he doesn't want to talk about the camp' and wants to talk about the 'great opportunity' he has to 'come home to Carlton.'

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood states that he 'didn't agree with all the decisions they (AFC) made, and that 'I could feel things bubbling' and 'it was only a matter of time before the lid came off.'

**************************

You can choose not to believe these people. You can choose to ignore the sequence of events and interpret it how you will. What you cannot do is refute actual statements or actual details revealed by actual people involved. Logic dictates that Burton and Camporeale were fired, because of their involvement. Logic also dictates that a contracted player like Betts would not uproot his family to go home to Adelaide, and then uproot them again at 32 years old, to go to a perennial cellar-dwelling club, whilst in contract.

You seem unwilling, however, to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall in line with your world view or your interpretation. When people correct you, you just dismiss it, and act superior.

I've written this long-ass essay, because it has irked me reading certain things that I know to be untrue, given my experience with both academia and in the mental health industry. You need to acknowledge that you don't know certain things, and that you might actually be wrong. To do otherwise when you have been supplied all of this information from a plethora of different posters, is both pompous and arrogant. It's also just ridiculous. You remind me of Donald Trump and his supporters, given your penchant for your espousal of 'fake news' commentary.

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board, but seriously, you need to listen to your fellow posters and eat a bit of humble pie. You can be wrong sometimes. Be a grown up and accept it. You're not a mental health professional, nor are you a linguistics scholar. You also weren't involved in the camp or the club (I hope), so you have no expertise in any of these fields/areas/debates. Quit acting like you're the all knowing overseer of all things. It's embarrassing and you're just making yourself look devoid of sense the more you do it.

Peace.
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In fairness to those you've potted in the above and subsequent posts, you've put forward some fake news of your own in this post.

In particular, you use the phrase:

"That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events", in relation to Hugh Greenwood, clearly implying that that he has left us as a result of the camp, which is just plain incorrect. He is on record - both before and after his departure, as stating that he would have preferred to stay. Same applies with Keath.

Has the camp impacted their willingness to hang around on lesser terms - probably. But that's very different to them 'leaving after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events'.

The biggest impact of the camp on guys like Greenwood, Keath and Sauce, is that it created an environment not conducive to signing them on for the extended contracts they were seeking (or in the case of Sauce, he's just a s**t player now so he would have been played in the 2's).

You also make it sound like Eddie and his family moved over here for the long haul, and only the camp has dislodged them and has driven them back to Melbourne. Eddie moved here because of family reasons. At the time - well before this camp debacle - it was frequently reported on this board that he would eventually move back to Melbourne. Has the camp played a part in bringing that forward a year? Probably, but it was generally accepted that he was going back at some stage anyway - his poor form and the increasing pressure for us to play youth as part of a rebuild (meaning less game time for Eddie) is a massive factor as well.

None of this dilutes the premise of your post, that the camp was s**t, and alot of players didn't like it, and it's messed up our club since. But mistruths are mistruths, and should be called out when they happen (Honors in Sociology or not).
 

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ftmch said:
As in indigenous elders?

That's messed up.
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I heard that on another forum. If true, it is more than messed up. Tell me what indigenous talent from any club would even want to come here when everyone knows it. Even McLeod could turn his back on us!

gee I hope that is just hearsay
 
Bovo said:
I heard that on another forum. If true, it is more than messed up. Tell me what indigenous talent from any club would even want to come here when everyone knows it. Even McLeod could turn his back on us!

gee I hope that is just hearsay
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I would find that part very hard to believe. We are talking early February 2018, and impersonation an indigenous elder did not make national news.
Any would-be an indigenous person pretending to be an elder would be front-page news, and any white pretending to be an Elder would have been on every news channel in Australia.

Even incorrectly using or missnaming indigenous artefacts, is interesting in its own right and frowned on in Australia, and depending on the use of such items and explanations can be Illegal, However, they can be used in the wrong context, which may be closer to the truth I believe.

Lots of stories going around but some are ridiculous and tend to miss the real issues at the club.
 
Bovo said:
I heard that on another forum. If true, it is more than messed up. Tell me what indigenous talent from any club would even want to come here when everyone knows it. Even McLeod could turn his back on us!

gee I hope that is just hearsay
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Considering we still have some of them here AND we've taken steps to prevent this rubbish from happening again you'd hope we wouldn't have any troubles going forward.
 
Bovo said:
I heard that on another forum. If true, it is more than messed up. Tell me what indigenous talent from any club would even want to come here when everyone knows it. Even McLeod could turn his back on us!

gee I hope that is just hearsay
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Like a Mahatma Coat equivalent?

Surely not
 
Shadow89 said:
The trains don't go where this bloke lives. He's ignored now (admittedly indulged him longer than I should of). Dunning-Kruger effect is a perfect diagnosis of his behaviour. I weep for you guys having to deal with this sort of posting on a consistent basis. Must be mentally exhausting dealing with someone who thinks they're never wrong. Even on the most basic things such as dictionary definitions or logical inferences.

Huge similarity between his posts and Donald Trump's tweets. Both never say/do/think a thing wrong, even when they are constantly proved otherwise. They also act like massive babies when they're critiqued and held to account. This is narcissistic behaviour 101. I know it happens, but it still always amazes me when I'm confronted with it.
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Should have #
 
Shadow89

For a Bloke with an Honours degree in Sociology, Too put someone on ignore in an open forum, and from a conversation, you started is interesting.

Just curious with all your experience do you believe it's OK for several people to mention and at times insult a person mental state.
This is BF, people post crap all the time, Does that make it right for others to attack their mental health? or there mental state, because it sounds like you do in your previous posts.

For info, the only medical knowledge I have on this subject is based on my own personal history. So I tend to be bais.
 
Shadow89 said:
Public confidence does not mean anything to do with you...it means how the public perceives you. Not your confidence, or how you act in the public sphere (or whatever you think it means). Key example would be the public confidence that Theresa May had before she failed to achieve a Brexit deal vs public confidence in Theresa May after she failed to draft any meaningful legislation that satisfied the EU and the British people. That loss in public confidence led to her downfall and subsequently being replaced by Boris Johnson. I'm sure you'll twist this to make it sound like you're right in some way though. That seems to be your M.O.

*****************

As for the rest of it, phew...I'm having to take a deep breath, because you are so far off the mark that you're in another stadium.

You are an absolutely delusional nut. I've tried to tow the line, but you are something else. You can't state that something is 'categorically true', when you have no evidence to support it. I literally just spent an entire post telling you how i have experience - personal, professional and academic - you then give me a post that states 'uh duhh, usually there is an immediate effect, this is categorically true.' Why, why is it true? Because you say so?

Also, re: post-death, you don't 'usually' see a decline in optimal functioning. Everyone's grief response is different, based on their experience and their view of what societal 'norms' are.

You can't talk on a general level and call it fact. My god. I genuinely think there is something seriously wrong with you.

Here are links from google, seeing as I can't link you to academic articles. Nearly all of what is said in these articles, points to 'dormant' trauma emerging later on after trying to use coping mechanisms to 'rationalize' things. It might not be all the time, but it's definitely not in the 'minority' like you claim it to be.


Traumatic stress

When you have experienced a traumatic event, even though the crisis is over you may still be experiencing, or may experience later, some strong emotional or physical reactions.
healthywa.wa.gov.au healthywa.wa.gov.au

Seriously mate, I have an Honours degree in Sociology, with a particular focus on inequality and mental health - psychology, anthropology, social work and counselling. I'm also involved in the mental health industry, and have a history of my own trauma and the study that came with understanding that. You are some know-it-all guy on bigfooty who just makes overarching statements about things he is not qualified to talk about.

You're wrong. Just shut up and walk away.

I'm ignoring you now, because it's like talking to a Trump supporter. All opinion, no basis, complete denial. Nothing worse than a dumb person who thinks they're more intelligent than everyone else, yet has no substantiation to back up a thing they say.
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OMFG.

Regarding "public confidence" - yes it means what you say it means, but purely from a political-type situation. I'm talking "character assassination" in the basic psychological realms. People talking s**t about a person to break them down bit by bit. It makes them lose confidence in the public arena online/offline. So the point of it all is that the person taking the hit, it's only them that would feel how much hurt or angst from the attacks. If the person being attacked doesn't have any input on it, and you're relying purely on the public's perspective, then this is how bullying and cyber-bullying can keep on taking their effect on the individuals under attack. And ironically, you're doing plenty of that on me without trying to figure me out first, just instant assumptions and labelling. Calling me out I never had a reputation to begin with...that is some BS talk right there.

And you say you have what again?
"Seriously mate, I have an Honours degree in Sociology, with a particular focus on inequality and mental health - psychology, anthropology, social work and counselling. I'm also involved in the mental health industry, and have a history of my own trauma and the study that came with understanding that. You are some know-it-all guy on bigfooty who just makes overarching statements about things he is not qualified to talk about."

Hmmm I'm starting to think you're talking yourself up just a slight tad.. Because the following post you said:
Shadow89 said:
Huge similarity between his posts and Donald Trump's tweets. Both never say/do/think a thing wrong, even when they are constantly proved otherwise. They also act like massive babies when they're critiqued and held to account. This is narcissistic behaviour 101. I know it happens, but it still always amazes me when I'm confronted with it.
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Do you even know what narcissism means? I honestly can tell you don't have much experience in the diagnosing arena. You only have made conversations with me on several posts and you come up with an instant diagnostic label. Me trying to defend myself is narcissistic behaviour? And this is despite me making reference to having helped out on the Anxiety/Depression thread in the main board for the past 2 years...and yet, you come up with the label narcissism?

What kind of counseling are you doing? Hope it's not in the realms of online bullying.
 
I think trolls like John Who deserve ridicule. Let's face it, he appeared in on this board during that little crusade last year to support the happy clappers when they were feeling everything on the board was "so negative" and people were "spreading wild rumours". There were others, but John has certainly been the most persistent.

The case has been heard and decided. We were right, by the club's own admission. So putting these knobs on ignore is actually a very sane thing to do.
 
John Who said:
OMFG.

Regarding "public confidence" - yes it means what you say it means, but purely from a political-type situation. I'm talking "character assassination" in the basic psychological realms. People talking s**t about a person to break them down bit by bit. It makes them lose confidence in the public arena online/offline. So the point of it all is that the person taking the hit, it's only them that would feel how much hurt or angst from the attacks. If the person being attacked doesn't have any input on it, and you're relying purely on the public's perspective, then this is how bullying and cyber-bullying can keep on taking their effect on the individuals under attack. And ironically, you're doing plenty of that on me without trying to figure me out first, just instant assumptions and labelling. Calling me out I never had a reputation to begin with...that is some BS talk right there.

And you say you have what again?
"Seriously mate, I have an Honours degree in Sociology, with a particular focus on inequality and mental health - psychology, anthropology, social work and counselling. I'm also involved in the mental health industry, and have a history of my own trauma and the study that came with understanding that. You are some know-it-all guy on bigfooty who just makes overarching statements about things he is not qualified to talk about."

Hmmm I'm starting to think you're talking yourself up just a slight tad.. Because the following post you said:

Do you even know what narcissism means? I honestly can tell you don't have much experience in the diagnosing arena. You only have made conversations with me on several posts and you come up with an instant diagnostic label. Me trying to defend myself is narcissistic behaviour? And this is despite me making reference to having helped out on the Anxiety/Depression thread in the main board for the past 2 years...and yet, you come up with the label narcissism?

What kind of counseling are you doing? Hope it's not in the realms of online bullying.
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STFU let it die take it too your private boxes
 
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