CEY: training camp ripped the heart out of Adelaide Crows

[Mike Smyth]

It's hard to believe the players association has never felt the need to become involved in such a public incident that has reportedly ruined the last 2 years for so many players. Wouldn't something this big and this public be their bread and butter.

 

[cleanhands]

It's hard to believe the players association has never felt the need to become involved in such a public incident that has reportedly ruined the last 2 years for so many players. Wouldn't something this big and this public be their bread and butter.

Did they do an investigation or the AFL?

 

[Mike Smyth]

The trains don't go where this bloke lives. He's ignored now (admittedly indulged him longer than I should of). Dunning-Kruger effect is a perfect diagnosis of his behaviour. I weep for you guys having to deal with this sort of posting on a consistent basis. Must be mentally exhausting dealing with someone who thinks they're never wrong. Even on the most basic things such as dictionary definitions or logical inferences.

Huge similarity between his posts and Donald Trump's tweets. Both never say/do/think a thing wrong, even when they are constantly proved otherwise. They also act like massive babies when they're critiqued and held to account. This is narcissistic behaviour 101. I know it happens, but it still always amazes me when I'm confronted with it.

LOL. Me thinks someone has got a heightened opinion of himself. Great orator though, i'll give you that much.

If you were offering laced Kool Aid I'm sure you would have many, many takers.

 

[Mike Smyth]

Did they do an investigation or the AFL?

I would love to know.

 

[FR0GGY]

Do Australia indigenous people use talking sticks or did do they use a message sticks,
But there is a lot mixed message from the camp with several media outlets mention several different artefacts
I was under the impression it was the incorrect use of didgeridoo depending on what part of Australia you came from.

I thought we admitted it in our horrible press conference

 

[ShadeyP]

It's hard to believe the players association has never felt the need to become involved in such a public incident that has reportedly ruined the last 2 years for so many players. Wouldn't something this big and this public be their bread and butter.

 

[cleanhands]

I would love to know.

I believe one or the other did,,,, if the AFL, would probably just been a phone call to Chapman and told nothing to see here just a beat up thanks for the call

 

[Mike Smyth]

Did they do an investigation or the AFL?

As much as I feel dirty quoting Caro...

Game brain: Crows to continue mind training

ADELAIDE says no player sought or required psychological help and there has been no contact from the AFL Players’ Association in the wake of a Gold Coast pre-season training camp that was designed to test the players’ mental resilience.

thewest.com.au

 

[cleanhands]

As much as I feel dirty quoting Caro...

Game brain: Crows to continue mind training

ADELAIDE says no player sought or required psychological help and there has been no contact from the AFL Players’ Association in the wake of a Gold Coast pre-season training camp that was designed to test the players’ mental resilience.

thewest.com.au

Toothless tiger

 

[Mike Smyth]

View attachment 768223

Given how much he dislikes the club he more than anyone would be pushing hard for an investigation.

 

[cleanhands]

Given how much he dislikes the club he more than anyone would be pushing hard for an investigation.

Did he leave with a sour taste have not heard that

 

[ShadeyP]

Given how much he dislikes the club he more than anyone would be pushing hard for an investigation.

I think his diplomatic self interest would have him going nowhere near it .

 

[Damon_3388]

I was told by one of our coaches this camp was designed to punish the players for the GF loss. There was a lot of cockiness and "got it in the bag" attitude towards beating Richmond. The idea being to strip them of their egos and build them back up. He said the guys running it were cowboys.

I didnt get a lot of detail, but he did tell me there was a session where the players told some truths about each other among themselves that got awkward.

I am guessing this is where there the disharmony in the playing group started.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Honestly, as a neutral, seeing the players that have left and have spoken out, it feels like a few home truths struck a nerve, and rather than use it positively or as fuel to get better, certain players have just sooked it up and not gotten on with the job. A few seem to have expected an armchair ride in the best 22, even when their form didn't warrant it, too.

I could be wrong, but I feel like some players' attitude/interpretation of what went on at this camp, and also the "challenges" from Pyke (eg. getting dropped), has been part of the problem, too. I don't entirely buy the "poor innocent victim player" line that's been peddled out.

 

[1970crow]

Do Australia indigenous people use talking sticks or did do they use a message sticks,
But there is a lot mixed message from the camp with several media outlets mention several different artefacts
I was under the impression it was the incorrect use of didgeridoo depending on what part of Australia you came from.

australian indigenous peoples aren’t all the same. It is simply not a single group of people. You city elites literally have not a ******* clue. Didgeridoos aren‘t cultural for every mob. They are Northern Australian only. Every other group selling them is taking the piss.

 

[John Who]

It's been alleged that the players were all made to "man scape" as a group.

John Who how do you think that has affected their pubic confidence?

Pubic confidence would be at an all time low in the club's history if such an event had occurred.

 

[John Who]

I would love to know.

I recall the AFLPA were never involved or contacted. But the AFL felt the need to do some review of the practices on the Camp, and didn't give us any penalty by the end of their review.

 

[ad victoriam]

australian indigenous peoples aren’t all the same. It is simply not a single group of people. You city elites literally have not a ******* clue. Didgeridoos aren‘t cultural for every mob. They are Northern Australian only. Every other group selling them is taking the piss.

I do know Didgeridoos are from Arnhem Land, that hence the wording "depending on what part of Australia you are from."
I have heard the organisers at the Camp referenced a Didgeridoo as a talking stick and use it in a way which was offensive to an indigenous player from Northern Territory, I believe that same Player was also given personal leave from the club to return home seeking cultural support.

Also, Why do you think that people living in the city today spent their entire lives in the city?

 

[TheShardMan]

Reading through this thread as a neutral observer (and someone who has followed this saga quite closely due to my experience with mental health), I have to say, that most of what you post is more speculative and fictitious than the so called 'speculation' and 'fiction' you purport to be arguing against.

I want to preface this by saying, that I apologise for the length of this post, but you have so many outlandish statements, that I feel I have to address them given a lot of them aren't based on empirical evidence.

Point in case, let's start with the above comment to demonstrate your egotistic attitude in this thread - "the reputation doesn't have to be good or bad to start with. It's simply about breaking down a character or nullifying their characteristics, attempting to inflict emotional pain for personal gratification."

A quick google of 'character assassination will give you several dictionary definitions:


character assassination
noun

the malicious and unjustified harming of a person's good reputation.
"all too often they discredit themselves by engaging in character assassination"

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Character assassination definition is - the slandering of a person usually with the intention of destroying public confidence in that person.

*********************

Described as “the action of damaging the good reputation of someone; slander or libel” (this is a definition used by law)

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A character assassination is a deliberate attempt to destroy someone's reputation, especially by criticizing them in an unfair and dishonest way

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Given that the poster was pointing out how you didn't have a 'good' reputation to begin with, their interpretation is correct. Yours is not. You can't destroy someone's reputation if they don't have much of one to begin with.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'd like to address some of your more offensive posts. Let's start with your understanding of trauma and how 'immediate reactions should usually follow.'

Trauma is different for nearly every single different person, but one of the most common narratives in those who suffer trauma, is the 'trigger point' that sets off this trauma. For a war veteran it might be the sound of heavy rain during a storm, that reflects artillery fire during their time in the military. For a child who was abused during their formative years, it could be specific words, certain tones, actions committed by those in the present, or merely being in contact with their abuser in some form. For a rape victim it could be the way a new lover touches them in a similar fashion, or if a similar case appears in the news or through word of mouth - friends, family etc. The trigger point for Adelaide players, appeared to be in Round 10, 2018.

The narrative suggests that players, while incensed and upset with their treatment post 2017 GF at the Mind Camp, were still able to play as a 'group' post camp/2017 GF. A frank and open discussion was had early on, that discussed how players felt and how they were unhappy with some aspects of the camp. This led to Pyke assuring the players that ties would be severed with the camp, and everyone moves on. The 'trigger' then happens sometime in between Round 9 and Round 10 2018, when it's revealed that players have been told that, contrary to prior statements, that management has decided they will be attending the camp again. The proof then reveals itself over the coming 18 months that leads to a fall from 1st and Runner up Premiers, to 12th and 11th and a complete rebuild.

Your next offensive statement, is your attitude towards how players reacted and a 'nothing to see here' approach. Let's address first the fact that you only have 1 Indigenous player remaining on your list from those who attended the 2017 camp - Wayne Milera. Ben Davis was on your list at the time, but there was no indication that rookies or new draftees would have been involved in the camp.

Charlie Cameron, Eddie Betts and Cam Ellis-Yolman, have all left your club in the past 2 years. Cameron cited the Adelaide 'football bubble', as his reason to leave, which is a fair enough reason. It's Betts and Ellis-Yolman that provide the most scrutiny, however.

Betts, an Adelaide native, returns to your club in 2013, citing 'family reasons' and 'wanting to settle down', as his reasoning. He plays 4 years of remarkable footy, and earns a 3 year contract extension in 2017 - unheard of for your club to do this at his age, apparently.

2 years later, he leaves, while still contracted, back to his original club in Carlton. This is amid reports that his wife was 'incensed' at the treatment of Eddie, and other Indigenous players. Logic dictates, that only a player who is deeply unhappy, is going to leave his home town where he's settled down and started his family (like he said he wanted), in order to return to the place away from home where he began. He's also not going to a club like Richmond, but a perennial cellar dweller, in Carlton. This suggests a player that does not care where he goes, whether it be for success or not, as long as it's away from Adelaide.

It is Ellis-Yolman, and his revealing comments however, that provide the most scrutiny. Contrary to your objections and your statements about 'speculation', CEY actually said, on air, that the camp left the players divided and 'ripped the heart out' of the playing group. That is not hearsay, those are his words. For you to trivialize that, and essentially downgrade his feelings towards a situation he ACTUALLY experienced - unlike you a random big footy commentator - is insanely disrespectful and frankly a little insane, given the plethora of evidence available. This has now been followed up by comments from Greenwood that state:

"I didn't agree with all the decisions they made. After 2017 I could feel things were bubbling and it was only a matter of time before the lid came off."

That statement, while slightly less incendiary, also highlights a player that has left after being dissatisfied with the aforementioned sequence of events. This is all the while, while your club is being independently reviewed, due to the publicly revealed issues going on within the club.

So to recap, this is now the sequence of events you have laid out in front of you (not speculation, actual verifiable data):

- 2017 GF, you guys lose the Grand Final and your mental fortitude is questioned

- Post 2017 GF, Charlie Cameron is traded to Brisbane and Jake Lever to Melbourne. Bryce Gibbs is traded in from Carlton.

- Post 2017 GF, you guys go on a pre-season camp with Collective Mind, and return to pre-season training.

- 2018, you lose your first game against Essendon, and go on to win 6 of the next 8.

- 2018, Round 10, you are absolutely belted by Melbourne, and don't even look like caring for most of the match.

- 2018, Post Round 10, it emerges that a sit down was had in Round 5 with players amidst rumours emerging surrounding events at the Collective Mind camp. Ties were severed to the camp after this meeting.

- 2018, it emerges that in between Round 9 and 10, Don Pyke reinstated ties to the Collective Mind camp, and said that players would be attending again.

- 2018, Rounds 11-23, you guys go on to have a 6-6 W/L record, and 12-10 overall W/L record. You miss finals marginally, after finish equal on points with 9, 10 and 11, but lowest on percentage.

- 2018, Mitch McGovern requests a trade to Carlton, the wooden spooner. This is despite being contracted until end of 2020. He cites the 'failed pre-season camp' as 'one of the reasons for the trade.' He also cites his relationship with assistant coach David Teague at Adelaide, as another reason.

- 2019, more details emerge about the camp. Crows miss finals again and finish 11th. This is despite having a decent injury run compared to the previous year. Lacklustre efforts show on field, and a disconnect appears to show between the players and the club.

- 2019 post-season, an independent review is ordered and interviews are conducted with players and staff that are kept confidential. Outcome finds that Brett Burton and Scott Camporeale will no longer be required at the AFC.

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood, Alex Keath, Eddie Betts, Sam Jacobs, Cam Ellis-Yolmen, all request trades or are 'forced out' for various reasons.

- 2019 post-season, Cam Ellis-Yolmen reveals that the Mind Camp, 'ripped the heart out of players' and 'divided the playing group.'

- 2019 post-season, Eddie Betts is asked about these comments in an interview and does not deny them. Rather he classily says that 'he doesn't want to talk about the camp' and wants to talk about the 'great opportunity' he has to 'come home to Carlton.'

- 2019 post-season, Hugh Greenwood states that he 'didn't agree with all the decisions they (AFC) made, and that 'I could feel things bubbling' and 'it was only a matter of time before the lid came off.'

**************************

You can choose not to believe these people. You can choose to ignore the sequence of events and interpret it how you will. What you cannot do is refute actual statements or actual details revealed by actual people involved. Logic dictates that Burton and Camporeale were fired, because of their involvement. Logic also dictates that a contracted player like Betts would not uproot his family to go home to Adelaide, and then uproot them again at 32 years old, to go to a perennial cellar-dwelling club, whilst in contract.

You seem unwilling, however, to acknowledge anything that doesn't fall in line with your world view or your interpretation. When people correct you, you just dismiss it, and act superior.

I've written this long-ass essay, because it has irked me reading certain things that I know to be untrue, given my experience with both academia and in the mental health industry. You need to acknowledge that you don't know certain things, and that you might actually be wrong. To do otherwise when you have been supplied all of this information from a plethora of different posters, is both pompous and arrogant. It's also just ridiculous. You remind me of Donald Trump and his supporters, given your penchant for your espousal of 'fake news' commentary.

I won't post again, as this is an Adelaide board, but seriously, you need to listen to your fellow posters and eat a bit of humble pie. You can be wrong sometimes. Be a grown up and accept it. You're not a mental health professional, nor are you a linguistics scholar. You also weren't involved in the camp or the club (I hope), so you have no expertise in any of these fields/areas/debates. Quit acting like you're the all knowing overseer of all things. It's embarrassing and you're just making yourself look devoid of sense the more you do it.

Peace.

sometimes, when i read posts like these it makes me wish I could write the same way. also regret not taking school more seriously.

 

[TheShardMan]

if the reports are true and some players were completely humiliated in front of their teammates(e.g. wet themselves), I can understand why no one has come out with the full story.

reckon theyre protecting those who felt especially shamed by what happened. I'm sure they wouldnt want to be tagged their whole lives as the player who.............had this happen to on camp.

its a crappy situation all round and I can sympathize with all involved.

 

[John Who]

sometimes, when i read posts like these it makes me wish I could write the same way. also regret not taking school more seriously.

Thanks for reminding me of this particular post you quoted. I plan to do one big reply at some stage. He’s very good in English for sure, but a lot of the stuff was based on a lot of assumptions, not actual facts. Lots of misguided information.

 

[TheShardMan]

Thanks for reminding me of this particular post you quoted. I plan to do one big reply at some stage. He’s very good in English for sure, but a lot of the stuff was based on a lot of assumptions, not actual facts. Lots of misguided information.

Haven't u already replied to him numerous times after that 1st post?

looks like u both said ur peace and everyone knows where u stand.
do u really need to get the last word in?

 

[FR0GGY]

Haven't u already replied to him numerous times after that 1st post?

looks like u both said ur peace and everyone knows where u stand.
do u really need to get the last word in?

Yes

 

[skam85]

The reason why I don't want to talk in public my job status because I want a certain level of anonymity, and I feel I have the rights as a member to say I work in the health field, and that's enough. Also I really don't take much notice what people's actual jobs are because I only care for the point of discussion, not how much degrees or diplomas they have.

I could say I'm a lawyer, a counselor or a doctor. What difference would it really make? There's good, bad and dodgy no matter what job you have.

And I reiterate, you can dislike what I have to say, or ignore, or click on the ignore button. However, there is no room for ongoing personal attacks because it results in black and white arguments, when reality tells you there are many shades of grey. Besides, it's actually against forum rules to continually attack a person. It's cyber bullying no matter which way you look at it, if it's on a persistent level. I have never pretended to know more than what I claim to know. This is why I don't contribute in trade talks much, or 18 year old draftees..it ain't my field.

If job status holds no relevance to a discussion, stop bleating about how you have authority to comment on something based on your job status.

 

[skam85]

stop acting like you're a goddamn legend of mental health issues.

perhaps take some of your own advice

 

[skam85]

Unfortunately, you leave yourself open to this when you misconstrue and make overarching statements about things you're not heavily versed in.

You can't make statements like you have, then walk them back because you act like you're being 'attacked.' That's not a defence. You said those things, you have to own them. I haven't misinterpreted a thing, lol. I quoted the things you said that were most offensive, and I provided reasons why they weren't empirical statements.

Misstating things, does not give you a 'free pass' to just say whatever you want based on your own bias or opinion - true or not. That is exactly what is happening in America right now. Trump is breaking the law in every which way possible, and then cries 'poor me' when the media, public and basically everyone, calls him on his BS.

If you can provide me with sound reasoning, articulated arguments and verifiable sources that prove your point, then you're more than welcome to share. As it stands, I have an academic list a mile long that refutes your statements about trauma being immediate in the aftermath (which you did say, and which was highly offensive). The rest is you just refusing to admit you're wrong, even when people have shown you otherwise. That's narcissism.

It's not attacking you, to tell you you're wrong or to prove you wrong. It's the difference between learning and blindly believing. Your choice is what you choose to do with the information supplied to you. Here's a statement from the post I'm replying to, that demonstrates this:

"I’ve never stated I know what went on, more the angle of it couldn’t have been serious from various reasons I’ve already mentioned in prior posts. That is my opinion based on my background understanding."

The bolded highlights how you simultaneously have highlighted that you only have a 'background understanding based on your opinion', that you've 'never stated you know what went on', but you still say 'it couldn't have been serious from the various reasons I've mentioned.'

You can't state 'it couldn't be', and then say it's just 'opinion' and a 'background understanding.' That's a logical contradiction. It's either opinion, or it couldn't be, because you have verifiable data or a source that proves otherwise. This is what I'm pointing to. You need to realize that your opinion is just that, opinion. It's not proven, and most of the data proves your contentions incorrect. If you accept that, without crying poor about being attacked, without offering a 'yeah but I'm still right', then you'll earn a whole lot more respect from people around you.

As it stands, your only focus is on how you're being treated, not how you're treating delicate issues which you don't fully understand. This is why you're being called out for it.

It's not a crime to have an opinion. It is a problem to have one and call it a fact. Your freedom of speech allows you to comment on things. My freedom of speech allows me to correct you when I believe you're wrong about those things. You don't get to stifle mine, just because you're offended or you don't like criticism. That's how authoritarianism starts.

thanks, now you have made me like Geelong fans