Champion Data’s List & Player Ratings - An Accurate Tool or Total Fabrication ??

n1ck

Debutant
Oct 23, 2007
81
101
AFL Club
St Kilda
Its complete garbage produced for the stats obsessed.

What I would love to see is what the clubs do with the data they get. That would be far more interesting but sadly they dont like to share.
Why would the clubs share when they have to pay upwards of $100k every year for the data? lol
 

catscollector

All Australian
Jun 30, 2018
839
886
AFL Club
Geelong
Actually Geelong and Hawks stopped teams getting it inside the def 50 and once there they didn't let them score much either so exposing the defence isn't what happened. Look at table below for example.

The ranking on champion data for defenders is all about those possession numbers it seems rack up lots of and metres gained and your good rack up low to none (even if the oppo don't score ) is bad.

View attachment 821507
How did Geelong's lauded defense go in the finals?
Actually, how has that excellent defense gone in finals for a number of years?

I think Champion Data have got it spot on.

Taylor is finished and was finished last season as well.
Stewart is elite but rarely plays one-on-one and more like a McGovern who intercepts and patrols the back half.
Blicavs is constantly talked about as some kind of brilliant defender. One of poorest contested marks for a guy his size (198cm) and only sporadically plays a full game in the back half. He's yet to play a full season as a defender.
Tuohy is also a very average one-on-one defender.

When you look at it, Stewart and Henderson are Geelong's only solid defenders who have the runs on the board. Taylor is past it and one can argue so too is Henderson.

Clark, Blicavs, Henry (utility), Bews, Kolodjashnij, O'Conner, they are all a work in progress and not one of them are considered A grade yet.
 

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tonygeeks

Premiership Player
Sep 11, 2016
3,448
4,296
AFL Club
Fremantle
Saints have done well getting the eliteness of Paddy Ryder thrown in as steak knives on a trade for another player
 

Gunf

Premiership Player
Mar 11, 2019
3,615
5,144
AFL Club
Geelong
How did Geelong's lauded defense go in the finals?
Actually, how has that excellent defense gone in finals for a number of years?

I think Champion Data have got it spot on.

Taylor is finished and was finished last season as well.
Stewart is elite but rarely plays one-on-one and more like a McGovern who intercepts and patrols the back half.
Blicavs is constantly talked about as some kind of brilliant defender. One of poorest contested marks for a guy his size (198cm) and only sporadically plays a full game in the back half. He's yet to play a full season as a defender.
Tuohy is also a very average one-on-one defender.

When you look at it, Stewart and Henderson are Geelong's only solid defenders who have the runs on the board. Taylor is past it and one can argue so too is Henderson.

Clark, Blicavs, Henry (utility), Bews, Kolodjashnij, O'Conner, they are all a work in progress and not one of them are considered A grade yet.
Everyone is well aware of how Geelong goes in finals but that isn't what this thread is about it is about CD being completely wrong on the list rankings

As i said in another post how they have Norths midfield above WC/Dogs/GWS amongst others i have no idea and this is with me rating Cunninton/Higgins and polec from Norths mids

Now don't get me wrong the stats they compile are good and if they released them all maybe my opinion would change but until they do we are left with evidence like the table i posted which shits on the list rankings that give.
 

catscollector

All Australian
Jun 30, 2018
839
886
AFL Club
Geelong
Everyone is well aware of how Geelong goes in finals but that isn't what this thread is about it is about CD being completely wrong on the list rankings

As i said in another post how they have Norths midfield above WC/Dogs/GWS amongst others i have no idea and this is with me rating Cunninton/Higgins and polec from Norths mids

Now don't get me wrong the stats they compile are good and if they released them all maybe my opinion would change but until they do we are left with evidence like the table i posted which shits on the list rankings that give.
Goldstein is still one of the top 5 rucks in the game today. He's ahead of GWS's ruck stocks and he's ahead of the Bulldogs ruck stocks.
Ziebell and Cunnington are elite contested footballers.
Higgins and Polac are exceptional outside runners and finishers (who at the Dogs is similar?).
North Melbourne is one of only a few teams who still like to utilize a genuine tagger. Only GWS' De Boer is better but Ben Jacobs is still one of the best.

Add in depth such as Dumont, Pittard and Hall, whom all average over 18 disposals per game, and you have a pretty serious midfield.

Keep in mind as well, North Melbourne have two backups rucks if called upon. Daw and Preuss.

Champion Data has it right in my book.
 

Gunf

Premiership Player
Mar 11, 2019
3,615
5,144
AFL Club
Geelong
Goldstein is still one of the top 5 rucks in the game today. He's ahead of GWS's ruck stocks and he's ahead of the Bulldogs ruck stocks.
Ziebell and Cunnington are elite contested footballers.
Higgins and Polac are exceptional outside runners and finishers (who at the Dogs is similar?).
North Melbourne is one of only a few teams who still like to utilize a genuine tagger. Only GWS' De Boer is better but Ben Jacobs is still one of the best.

Add in depth such as Dumont, Pittard and Hall, whom all average over 18 disposals per game, and you have a pretty serious midfield.

Keep in mind as well, North Melbourne have two backups rucks if called upon. Daw and Preuss.

Champion Data has it right in my book.
See now you really need to look at the lists again Pruess is at Melb now and Daw is a defender as for the dogs not having outside run??? you are shitting me right?
 

seanoff

Premiership Player
Mar 12, 2007
4,535
1,256
AFL Club
GWS
Other Teams
St Mary's
Is the ranking saying Geelong's team defence is 16th best, or is it saying that their players classified as defenders are ranked 16th when comparing their output to other teams? I don't think you know, which proves my point exactly. How can you draw your own conclusions when you don't know the basis for the ranking?

If all you'd want to know was "scores against" to rank best defence that info is easily found. Obviously that's not what this is presenting.

It's a shame that it seems the link to explain the player ratings system is broken atm on the afl site....
their output as defenders is to stop scoring. That’s their job, their ultimate kpi is score against.
you can’t put out something that will be interpreted as a ranking of defence, midfield and attack and then have a convoluted explanation for why it doesn’t reflect the actual output. why put it out if it’s a model that looks so fundamentally flawed?
 

aflfan1990

Draftee
Feb 12, 2020
2
1
AFL Club
Collingwood
I think the main issue is that theirs is the only one available, so we don't even have a comparison. But I think its a joke, you only have to look at the state of AFL research to know that its full of people who can't do basic statistics. I don't see how the official people are any different.


https://www.theage.com.au/national/cold-water-poured-on-scientific-studies-based-on-statistical-cult-20191108-p538t6.html

The method talked about Magnitude based inference, the AFL has handed out an AFL injury project to the people who use this method extensively in their research.
https://www.vu.edu.au/research/rob-aughey

If we look at just Aughey, his most recent PhD student just finished and he used magnitude based inference, this is years after it has been banned at the AIS.
http://vuir.vu.edu.au/37818/1/ESMAEILI, Alireza-Final Thesis_nosignature.pdf

So there you go AFL researchers with PhD's still use dodgy methods without understanding after being banned from the AIS.
 

catscollector

All Australian
Jun 30, 2018
839
886
AFL Club
Geelong
See now you really need to look at the lists again Pruess is at Melb now and Daw is a defender as for the dogs not having outside run??? you are shitting me right?
My mistake on Preuss but Daw is still a handy ruckman.

Name an outside player at the Bulldogs apart from JJ who is as creative and damaging as Higgins and Polec?
I want you to name some players with speed and creativity on the outside.
They are all similar types with very little x factor to the midfield. Bontempelli is brilliant but he's like a Pendlebury.
 

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catscollector

All Australian
Jun 30, 2018
839
886
AFL Club
Geelong
Big print in your book and lots of pictures.
There's a reason you guys got smashed in the finals last year. You could not match the outside run of Kelly or Whitfield. Too one dimensional. Still a great midfield but not in the same class as GWS, West Coast or Collingwood.
 

Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
3,658
5,955
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
There's a reason you guys got smashed in the finals last year. You could not match the outside run of Kelly or Whitfield. Too one dimensional. Still a great midfield but not in the same class as GWS, West Coast or Collingwood.
I'm not claiming we have an abundance of outside run, but we didn't lose the final because of that. We went in with a team substantially less experienced, and about 3 years younger on average, and ended up being completely out-muscled. Our players were bullied on the inside, which was probably the biggest difference between that game, and the regular season match we'd played at the same ground a few weeks earlier which we won with ease
 

Gunf

Premiership Player
Mar 11, 2019
3,615
5,144
AFL Club
Geelong
My mistake on Preuss but Daw is still a handy ruckman.

Name an outside player at the Bulldogs apart from JJ who is as creative and damaging as Higgins and Polec?
I want you to name some players with speed and creativity on the outside.
They are all similar types with very little x factor to the midfield. Bontempelli is brilliant but he's like a Pendlebury.
Hunter
 

catscollector

All Australian
Jun 30, 2018
839
886
AFL Club
Geelong
I'm not claiming we have an abundance of outside run, but we didn't lose the final because of that. We went in with a team substantially less experienced, and about 3 years younger on average, and ended up being completely out-muscled. Our players were bullied on the inside, which was probably the biggest difference between that game, and the regular season match we'd played at the same ground a few weeks earlier which we won with ease
lol, you won that game because GWS had absolutely nothing to play for. They basically eased up in the 2nd half of the game.
They didn't show their hand as they knew they could not drop a spot nor make up ground on Collingwood.

You guys are the Fremantle Dockers of 2014.
Tough workhorses who severely lack x factor in the midfield.
 

Yojimbo

Norm Smith Medallist
Nov 14, 2012
8,917
7,721
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
There's a reason you guys got smashed in the finals last year. You could not match the outside run of Kelly or Whitfield. Too one dimensional. Still a great midfield but not in the same class as GWS, West Coast or Collingwood.
Actually both Whitfield and Kelly were better in the Round 22 loss to the Bulldogs, the only three players who
improved from Round 22 to the Elimination Final were Heath Shaw, Brent Daniels and Harry Perryman who
were all +5, Tim Taranto and Aidan Corr were equal all the others were down. The main difference from our
Round 22 trashing to our Elimination Final waterloo was (Ins) Jacob Hopper, Jeremy Cameron, Sam Taylor,
Jeremy Finlayson, Brett Deledio, Shane Mumford and Daniel Lloyd and (Outs) Adam Tomlinson, Ian Hill,
Jye Caldwell, Jake Stein, Dawson Simpson, Zachary Sproule, and Lachlan Keefe. Apologies to my good man
Matt De Boer you were also +1, but people always forget the tagger. I agree our midfield can be a little one
dimensional at times and one paced, but a coach can only work with the assets at his disposal. I am hoping
some new midfield blood can help that, but habits are hard to break.

Note: I hope the font is big enough for you and apologies, back to hating champion data or loving it which
ever takes your fancy.
 

catscollector

All Australian
Jun 30, 2018
839
886
AFL Club
Geelong
So the only way to be creative and damaging is kicking goals??? i guess the only creative players are forwards and mids who spend time forward
No but kicking goals is a very valuable asset to have as a midfielder and one which often distinguishes the best from the very best.
Hunter is a star. An absolute gun of a footballer but in my eyes, he's no different to a Trent Cotchin. Terrific player but not an x factor.

North Melbourne have Higgins and Polec. They win their own footy but also contribute on the scoreboard. While I do not for a second think Polec is a better player than Hunter, I do believe his game (coupled with that of Higgins), hurts a team like the Western Bulldogs more so than most given the Bulldogs are rather one dimensional inside and out.
 

Virgin Dog

Premiership Player
Oct 29, 2017
3,658
5,955
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
lol, you won that game because GWS had absolutely nothing to play for. They basically eased up in the 2nd half of the game.
They didn't show their hand as they knew they could not drop a spot nor make up ground on Collingwood.

You guys are the Fremantle Dockers of 2014.
Tough workhorses who severely lack x factor in the midfield.
Your whole post is either 100% trolling or complete nuff
 

catscollector

All Australian
Jun 30, 2018
839
886
AFL Club
Geelong
Your whole post is either 100% trolling or complete nuff
That's it? So rather than break down my post, you just do what 80% of Richmond supporters do and call me a troll instead? :thumbsdown:

For what it's worth, I said the Giants were foxing after that game and would beat you guys in the final. You thought much differently however.
 

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