Unofficial Preview Changes and Discussion - Dogs round 16

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Kernel Kurtz

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Matho is playing to zero crowds and working his arse off every week. Bet he does more than 17 sprints and outworks the retiree.

Absolutely bring him in to replace any player who are puts in less sprints then Mitch.

Which is the whole bloody team. Embarrassing and telling.

The fact that players in the reserves who put in massive efforts don't get reward probably contributes to that shameful statistic. Arrogant players, believing they are sooo great they are untouchable.

Heads MUST roll this week. Take the loss, and send a message. Who knows - might not be a loss because we will have players actually trying.
To think in the presser Fages mentioned about what to do.
Do we put the game aside and get on with it or do we critique it and find what the learnings will be ;).
see what I did there.
Not his exact words , but that was the gist of it.
Starting to think he might be a bit lost at the moment or second guessing the whole plan.
Still why wouldn't he be livid with that performance, possibly because he has realized the direction he has taken us is flawed.
That's the only excuse or reason , some of it is on his shoulders, otherwise get up the friggin lotof them ffs.
Not kindergarden.

On the game and I don't think anybody here has mentioned this.
We weren't kicking it down the line or banging way forward , instead diinky kicks sideways and backwards.
Felt like maybe there was a change in tactic , really unlike us tbh.
As bad as banging it to a contest down the line is, boy what we were doing was not based on spread or movement.

Was this an attempt to keep possession and run and present , hope not cause there wasn't much movement and no run and gun , just kept possession until we kicked ourselves into a corner. This would of been the second quarter I noticed this.
 

davemc_lions

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be nice to mix things up a bit Fagan used to talk about having versatile players who can swap forward/back.
Hipwood wing for a while might work I also like McStay to run through the centre now and then like we did with Jono Brown.

We got smashed on Thursday and looked like they had no plan.
Not like it was one qtr.. they had half time and 3/4 time to move the chess pieces around to see
 
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Strato

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OK, ffs lets give Matho another go.......Sheeeesh haven't we all seen him just get the ball and punt it as far as he can.......that's what he offers, and it's not good enough.

haven't we seen this over all the years he's been here.
I agree with part of what you say - (haven't we all seen him just get the ball and punt it as far as he can). BUT, we have a few players that are not getting enough of the ball and therefore having no effect. Matho is hard at the ball and does get the ball - To me that's a positive. Already in the side, we have players consistently doing exactly the same thing so why single one player out when others who get less possessions do the same thing. We always when going forward bombing it in hoping that our forwards mark it. We are getting slaughtered in the guts and will continue unless we try something. To me, as I have posted yesterday, Bring Starcevich to the HFF - give him a go through guts and have matho on the bench as a back up if a move is required where Starcevich has to go back. Dogs are in form so if we go in with the same old set up another defeat is on the cards. If we loose to the Dogs the Drums are going to beat LOUDER and LOUDER. The other concern that I have is that Fagan stated that he did not see the Melbourne performance coming. For god's sake, if he and the other assistant coaches did not see it coming - well we have a bigger issue - then again team selection was an issue?
 

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3KZ is Football

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Matho is playing to zero crowds and working his arse off every week. Bet he does more than 17 sprints and outworks the retiree.

Absolutely bring him in to replace any player who are puts in less sprints then Mitch.

Which is the whole bloody team. Embarrassing and telling.

The fact that players in the reserves who put in massive efforts don't get reward probably contributes to that shameful statistic. Arrogant players, believing they are sooo great they are untouchable.

Heads MUST roll this week. Take the loss, and send a message. Who knows - might not be a loss because we will have players actually trying.
100% Agree!!
 

Gadzorks

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To think in the presser Fages mentioned about what to do.
Do we put the game aside and get on with it or do we critique it and find what the learnings will be ;).
see what I did there.
Not his exact words , but that was the gist of it.
Starting to think he might be a bit lost at the moment or second guessing the whole plan.
Still why wouldn't he be livid with that performance, possibly because he has realized the direction he has taken us is flawed.
That's the only excuse or reason , some of it is on his shoulders, otherwise get up the friggin lotof them ffs.
Not kindergarden.

On the game and I don't think anybody here has mentioned this.
We weren't kicking it down the line or banging way forward , instead diinky kicks sideways and backwards.
Felt like maybe there was a change in tactic , really unlike us tbh.
As bad as banging it to a contest down the line is, boy what we were doing was not based on spread or movement.

Was this an attempt to keep possession and run and present , hope not cause there wasn't much movement and no run and gun , just kept possession until we kicked ourselves into a corner. This would of been the second quarter I noticed this.

I couldn't/can't stomach Fagan's chat after the game. Too sad.

Thought the short kicking game was because they shut is down.

In retrospect, it's because they were sprinting everywhere, and we were confused at how they were covering so much ground.

That game was all on the player efforts. Can't blame the coach if players don't respect the game enough to try.
 

martinson

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Fages post matches have been getting a little on the worrying side at times but this week was bizarre .

I sort of get the bit that that's not our true form etc etc and why he would say that even if it's avoiding the issue but then he extends to say do I give them a Mulligan ? Just forget about it and move on.

I found that delusional.

Then he spent time saying how fantastic Melbourne were . Gave Viney the biggest wrap of all time. Painted them as a bit invincible.

He's under pressure and in avoidance mode. This week's team selections , not that they would have made much difference the way it turned out, were to me completely baffling.

Interested to see how we respond this week. And who we pick.
 

3KZ is Football

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be nice to mix things up a bit Fagan used to talk about having versatile players who can swap forward/back.
Hipwood wing for a while might work I also like McStay to run through the centre now and then like we did with Jono Brown.

We got smashed on Thursday and looked like they had no plan.
Not like it was one qtr.. they had half time and 3/4 time to move the chess pieces around to see
Fagan was like the tactical Rabbit in the headlights. Watching Rich take kick ins in the second half and each one going long to a contest in the wing was how we would play under Leppitsch. Nobody was running to make a corridor option. Melbourne had clear air superiority and they were either marking it and sending it back or forcing it out of play and sending it back after the stoppage. We were 30 points down at half time and we came out and played the third quarter like we were 50 points up and we just wanted to ice the clock and avoid injuries. It was ridiculous. I used to ask this when Leppitsch was coach. Were our players playing to instructions in the third quarter? If not, what is the consequence and what does it say about Fagan?
 

martinson

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The more I think about Hipwood for the wing, it's starting to make total sense. He'll be our relief kick if needed for defense without our forwards actually needing to lead to the wing. Forwards can hold station deep and we can aim for Hipwood with the hope that he'll be able to outmark his undersized wing opponent. Hipwood is a decent, long field kick and if he gets a footy in the wing, he can pump it long quickly.

Our mids and defense may need to provide some cover if Hipwood couldn't halve the contest and there is a rebound. But that happens today anyway and we'll be trying something different to what we have attempted so far this season. Something like a plan C/D/E possibly.
I just don't think Hipwood is in any condition to go to the wing at this point.

He's not up to it at the moment. I get why we're playing him but we're here to win games from hereon in.
 

25 years on

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Our long kick to the wing fails if the opposition wins the contest that follows
our long kick to the fwd line fails is Eric and Joe lead to the pockets, and leave Cam Rayner on a taller defender in the middle, or set up a low percentage kick for goal
 

M Malice

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In retrospect, it's because they were sprinting everywhere, and we were confused at how they were covering so much ground.

That game was all on the player efforts. Can't blame the coach if players don't respect the game enough to try.
This is spot on Gadz, the difference was stark in regards to the Demons hard, fast gut running compared to ours... sadly maybe we are just not fit enough to match it against the best sides.
 

M Malice

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Fagan was like the tactical Rabbit in the headlights. Watching Rich take kick ins in the second half and each one going long to a contest in the wing was how we would play under Leppitsch. Nobody was running to make a corridor option. Melbourne had clear air superiority and they were either marking it and sending it back or forcing it out of play and sending it back after the stoppage. We were 30 points down at half time and we came out and played the third quarter like we were 50 points up and we just wanted to ice the clock and avoid injuries. It was ridiculous. I used to ask this when Leppitsch was coach. Were our players playing to instructions in the third quarter? If not, what is the consequence and what does it say about Fagan?
Richy is of no value taking the kick ins, I have been banging on about it for ages, his routine at kick ins is to hesitate and then go long to a contest, very rarely does he take a kick on or try for a quick kick in any longer, I'd prefer Kiddy took the kick ins.
 

dlanod

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I thought the same re hipwood on the wing. Supposedly has the engine, likes to play upfield and is a bonus tall for our game plan of long bombs. .

The more I think about Hipwood for the wing, it's starting to make total sense. He'll be our relief kick if needed for defense without our forwards actually needing to lead to the wing. Forwards can hold station deep and we can aim for Hipwood with the hope that he'll be able to outmark his undersized wing opponent. Hipwood is a decent, long field kick and if he gets a footy in the wing, he can pump it long quickly.

Our mids and defense may need to provide some cover if Hipwood couldn't halve the contest and there is a rebound. But that happens today anyway and we'll be trying something different to what we have attempted so far this season. Something like a plan C/D/E possibly.

I've thought Hipwood on a wing makes sense but not in our team. Berry, Ah Chee and Robbo can really nail a tackle. McCluggage and Prior are not liabilities. We really rely on that defensive pressure (in theory) to stop the ball getting out of the contest under normal circumstances. Hipwood does not provide that. He'd be great working forward but it would be quite detrimental to our midfield mix, which is already an issue.

IMO my best position for Hipwood would be either just on the attacking side of a contest or one kick up field, but we tend to play McCarthy there at the moment.
 

martinson

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Richy is of no value taking the kick ins, I have been banging on about it for ages, his routine at kick ins is to hesitate and then go long to a contest, very rarely does he take a kick on or try for a quick kick in any longer, I'd prefer Kiddy took the kick ins.
The opposition have completely worked out our kick in routine , not that it's that hard , and just rip scoring opportunities off it . It's a liability . Every time the opposition score a point I wonder if we'll ever get it past the wing.
 

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dlanod

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Richy is of no value taking the kick ins, I have been banging on about it for ages, his routine at kick ins is to hesitate and then go long to a contest, very rarely does he take a kick on or try for a quick kick in any longer, I'd prefer Kiddy took the kick ins.
Rich will hit up a free player more often than not - either short-ish or long (if available). Contests are definitely a last option, but on Thursday we saw Melbourne flooding in and not giving any space to any of our players. The problem is that teams are leaving guys like Andrews or Gardiner free for the short-ish kick, and then zone up in front of them - we've now taken the ball out of Rich's hands, it's with someone who's an exploitable kick, and they can anticipate the next short chip across and intercept/cause a spill (happened several times on Thursday) or a shorter "long kick" to a contest.
 

On the quiet

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Yep. Ah Chee could play the Answerth role and you rotate Lester and Payne, Lester and Rich or even Lester and Starcevich, if you want to free Starcevich up for some time in the middle. Fagan is too obsessed with the Brutus Beefcake Defender type and I don’t see we can afford to have Adams and Payne in defence given that both panic with ball in hand, Adams disposal by foot is atrocious and Payne’s is not much better. Rich still gets lots of the ball, but there are plenty of soft touches in there as the ball is switched about or he gets a cheapie running past. Once again against Melbourne we leaked goals, were caught out of position and coughed it up in defence. We desperately need the utility, skill and football IQ that Lester would bring. We need a General in defence and we have not got one at the minute.
For those who argue that it is not our defence’s fault, that our midfield makes it impossible for them, they need to look closely and compare Melbourne’s defence with ours. I was on Level 2 at the MCG on Thursday, at the 50 city end, with a perfect view of the relative defences. There were plenty of times where our midfield won the contest, streamed past the Melbourne mids and sent ball into our attack. Then what happened, our Lions forwards, particularly Daniher, Hipwood, McStay and Cameron had a Melbourne defender close checking them and making the contest for the ball a brutal one on one that we lost more often than not. By way of contrast, our defensive unit were playing off their men, out of position and running around trying to cover each other’s men when they had got loose. It was a shambles. People are putting air into Payne’s tyres and he wasn’t our worst, but he took most of his intercept marks once the game was well and truly over. There were still too many contests where Andrews and Adams had zero impact. Watching Fritsch and other Melbourne forwards take pack marks while our defenders were out of the contest or position waving their fists in the fresh air was depressing. Melbourne’s defence were ruthless and disciplined ours was brave at times, but it looked confused and ramshackle.
So Starc along with Kiddy is one of our two fastest backs. Payne is arguably our fastest tall back and you want to move the magnets so we can add another slow defender. I thought it was obvious last year when Payne was picked in the unfamiliar forward role against the Dogs, that Lester is handy back up.
 

martinson

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The other issue is we've talked the talk for years about players being versatile and performing multiple roles but in practice we do the opposite with our list.

Some players have gotten too comfortable in their roles and really lost any sense of innovation and responding creatively to situations in games. When a year or two ago everyone thought they'd become good enough to do that. The opposition seem to always know what's coming.

It's been the case all year when we were flopping over the line against lesser teams.

I mentioned a few weeks ago I thought it was time for a real shakeup. Surely it's inevitable soon. The players were really pathetic on Thursday. The coaching group too haven't covered themselves with glory.

It's not irretrievable. We're still well and truly in contention if we take the bit between the teeth and do something about it.

I felt we lost something when Zorko moved from half back . He was doing the sort of things we'd been missing for a long time.
 

davemc_lions

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Rich will hit up a free player more often than not - either short-ish or long (if available). Contests are definitely a last option, but on Thursday we saw Melbourne flooding in and not giving any space to any of our players. The problem is that teams are leaving guys like Andrews or Gardiner free for the short-ish kick, and then zone up in front of them - we've now taken the ball out of Rich's hands, it's with someone who's an exploitable kick, and they can anticipate the next short chip across and intercept/cause a spill (happened several times on Thursday) or a shorter "long kick" to a contest.
Problem is at the game Berry often made space and ignored.
So I do think it game plan not Rich or Kiddy.

Said last few year no good having our best kickers in the backline basically kick long to a 50-50 contest on the wing or short to back pocket unmanned player. Who then kicks to the contest on the wing :)
We hope to mark/crumb or more often get it over the boundary for another 50-50 chance to go forward.
Other sides run it out more then us.. interesting we are the best team going end to end for a score :)
Although like the Cats our game plan works against sides under us. Gets us top 4.
Then falls apart against quality teams or finals.
 

dlanod

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Interesting that Matho gets bagged out for just slamming the ball forward from the contest,when Rayner does exactly the same thing. Admittedly Rayner does kick it further. Getting the ball in quickly is often the best option.
Rayner will also run it a good 15-20 metres forward first, meaning he can beat the zone by himself off a good play and doing exactly what you describe - get it in quickly, to a one on one.

Matho will slam it on the boot from the contest itself, often across his body, leading to a 30-50m kick dropping right into the middle of the opposition zone.

The two of them tend to have very different results because of the distance involved.
 

Pride of lions

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Rayner will also run it a good 15-20 metres forward first, meaning he can beat the zone by himself off a good play and doing exactly what you describe - get it in quickly, to a one on one.

Matho will slam it on the boot from the contest itself, often across his body, leading to a 30-50m kick dropping right into the middle of the opposition zone.

The two of them tend to have very different results because of the distance involved.
I agree with you. But I think we stuff around with too many short sideways kicks when we win a centre clearance. That works against poor teams but against stronger defences like Melbourne,Freo and Geelong we get caught out. I like what Rayner does and think we should do more of it,as long as the forwards actually want to work hard and compete in the air which was sadly lacking on Thursday.
 

beardancer

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Matho is playing to zero crowds and working his arse off every week. Bet he does more than 17 sprints and outworks the retiree.

Absolutely bring him in to replace any player who are puts in less sprints then Mitch.

Which is the whole bloody team. Embarrassing and telling.

The fact that players in the reserves who put in massive efforts don't get reward probably contributes to that shameful statistic. Arrogant players, believing they are sooo great they are untouchable.

Heads MUST roll this week. Take the loss, and send a message. Who knows - might not be a loss because we will have players actually trying.
guts and determination isn't enough these days. vision, decision making........just skill is where it's at.

Matho is a beauty, there wouldn't be one person on this site that doesn't love what the guy brings but he has flaws in his game that we've seen over and over. Personally I think it's a failure of coaching.
 

3KZ is Football

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People assume that a capacity for improvement is a “given” with some players, including experienced players, but not others. It borders on illogical to suggest that Mathieson, at aged 25 is not able to improve his game. A combination of personal learning and good coaching should be ensuring that he can improve. If he is not improving it is an indictment of our football department. He is LONG overdue for another shot in the Seniors, based on SUSTAINED good form in the Reserves. What does a bloke have to do?
 

beardancer

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Becomes a bit tricky when we have to fit in 5 talls. The team who has done it recently was Port Adelaide in 2020 I think - Dixon, Marshall, Georgiades, Lycett and Ladhams.

I'm starting to think we could try Hipwood on the wing. He'll be a nightmare match up for the mid-180 wingers with his height and ability to outmark them. But it will be a trade off for someone running away from him.
I wouldn't go for Eric on the wing but Jack Payne would be something else. He has extreme speed, tackling ability, marking.....I guess the only thing would be his tank.
 

dlanod

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It borders on illogical to suggest that Mathieson, at aged 25 is not able to improve his game.
I don't disagree in principle.

However I haven't exactly seen evidence of that in reserves footage.

Instead it's what we expect of him by now, just more of it because he is definitely in that "better than VFL, not enough impact at AFL" league.
 

spotthedog1

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People assume that a capacity for improvement is a “given” with some players, including experienced players, but not others. It borders on illogical to suggest that Mathieson, at aged 25 is not able to improve his game. A combination of personal learning and good coaching should be ensuring that he can improve. If he is not improving it is an indictment of our football department. He is LONG overdue for another shot in the Seniors, based on SUSTAINED good form in the Reserves. What does a bloke have to do?
What does a bloke have to do? Well, he could've used one of the other 84 opportunities he had in the firsts. It's silly to say that players can't improve. It's rare to see a complete change though, and it's also silly to say "something will be different this time" after the last 12 times we've given him a run in the 1s.

Unfortunately, he is better than VFL level, below AFL level.
 
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