Unofficial Preview Changes & Discussion Round 3 v Magpies @ Gabba Easter Thursday.

[dlanod]

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[Section 5]

The Club needs to upgrade 1 of the Cat B rookies.
Just do it and give one of them some incentive to push harder for selection.
We are 0-2 playing the Premiers that are 0-3.

Rayner had 2 goes in the midfield and we lost both games. Back to fwd/mid for him at least for now.

Doedee plays let's say in Lester position.
Zorko goes to defense to take McKenna's run from halfback.
Payne in for Berry's defense position

Neale in for Lyons (maybe sub)
Tunstill in for Robertson (maybe sub)

Out Lohmann in a fresh face a Cat B player, Lloyd , Morris, Ryan (?VFL)

Gardiner if fit forward again, if not one of Lester, Lloyd, Morris, Ryan (?VFL)

 

[Nunez]

The Club needs to upgrade 1 of the Cat B rookies.
Just do it and give one of them some incentive to push harder for selection.
We are 0-2 playing the Premiers that are 0-3.

Rayner had 2 goes in the midfield and we lost both games. Back to fwd/mid for him at least for now.

Doedee plays let's say in Lester position.
Zorko goes to defense to take McKenna's run from halfback.
Payne in for Berry's defense position

Neale in for Lyons (maybe sub)
Tunstill in for Robertson (maybe sub)

Out Lohmann in a fresh face a Cat B player, Lloyd , Morris, Ryan (?VFL)

Gardiner if fit forward again, if not one of Lester, Lloyd, Morris, Ryan (?VFL)

That's the problem, he's had time in the middle and time forward. His role is not as a mid and not as a forward. He was all set to play some big midfield minutes, only for us to name Lyons round 0. Against Freo, he only started in the middle TWICE during our worst quarter. In the fourth, he was given 5 centre clearances - he won centre clearances and we had our best quarter.

Until we decide on whether we want to give him a shot as a midfielder or we want him to focus on third tall, he is going to struggle to consistently impact games. The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. We need to decide a path and stick with it.

 

[questeds]

It's a strange position, I'm not worried about the disappointment of losing, I'm worried about the disappointment of team annoucement.

If Oscar is in and Forte isn't, that will be the first blow. Berry still being in will be the second. Not putting a tag on Naicos will be the third.

I'm sure there will still be plenty of learnings though, we're collecting plenty of those.

 

[LionCub29]

I’ve pretty much given up on Berry playing on ball, and I’m also at the point where I’m willing to move on from Berry being a best 22 player on a wing.

Except, we don’t have a ready made replacement.

I can’t believe how far Berry has fallen off over the last 12 months. Short of a dramatic turnaround, I can see him being the first of our longer term contracted players to be invited to look elsewhere.

 

[McIvor]

I can’t believe how far Berry has fallen off over the last 12 months. Short of a dramatic turnaround, I can see him being the first of our longer term contracted players to be invited to look elsewhere.

It didn’t seem that long ago that all Lions fans were marveling about how good that trade was where we downgraded that one pick to get Hugh and then score Berry. Then all the talk that he was captain in waiting.

Maybe Hugh doesn’t settle without Berry and you’d think it pretty unlikely we take Terry but for drafting Jerry.

But you’re right; Berry has significantly regressed to the point that he is a coach killer and momentum killer rolled in one and detrimental to any hope of winning that GF. I mean so much for righting any wrongs in the GF and if anything he’s continued on the same path with his undisciplined and Clanger game he has. Should be dropped and I don’t see the talent that made him a round one pick to the point he’s just a bog average player nowadays. Definitely tradable.

 

[Jirik13]

The Club needs to upgrade 1 of the Cat B rookies.

Cat B rookies can be selected to play AFL. No need to upgrade them to the senior list. The rule changed some time ago.

 

[Spiral_Out]

You guys are going to kill us, don't fret.


We are too patchy, I watch a lot of footy and from the first 12 quarters we've played this year, 4 of them have been the worst quarters we have played in over 2 years, another week of training isn't going to magically fix it, St Kilda aren't even that good and they beat us lol.


8 -10 goal Lions win coming up.

 

[Sanchez365]

Getting the mix right at the selection table is the big one for me. I like the idea of playing Berry at either HFF or HBF, he's a good defensive runner and could be similar to Ah Chee in balancing out our more aggressive forwards. However that hasn't seemed to have worked so far.

The biggest one for me however is the midfield as Nunez said, drop Lyons and actually play Rayner as a FT mid. I'm not sure why Fages doesnt see the desperate need to refresh the midfield and go with a new lineup in there, if we don't shift some of our bigger assets into that part of the ground we are going to continue to struggle.

A front 6 of:
Danniher Hipwood (talls)
Cameron Bailey (aggressive smalls)
Ah Chee Berry (defensive hffs)
McCarthy (all rounder)

A midfield unit of:
Neale Dunkley Rayner (cbas)
McCluggage Fletcher (wings)
Oscar (although I'd go Fort)

A defensive unit of:
Andrews Lester Payne
Starch Doedee Wilmot

It's probably our best lineup at the moment. Give the bench to at least a few guys going hard in the reserves.

 

[mpal6]

That's the problem, he's had time in the middle and time forward. His role is not as a mid and not as a forward. He was all set to play some big midfield minutes, only for us to name Lyons round 0. Against Freo, he only started in the middle TWICE during our worst quarter. In the fourth, he was given 5 centre clearances - he won centre clearances and we had our best quarter.

Until we decide on whether we want to give him a shot as a midfielder or we want him to focus on third tall, he is going to struggle to consistently impact games. The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. We need to decide a path and stick with it.

I'd drop Rayner and give him a 3-4 game block in 2s as the primary ball winning midfielder. Tell him not to wait for anyone and just go for the clearance. Get some instinct, ball hunting style back in him before bringing him back to 1s.

When he comes back to 1s, rest of them get the F out of his way and let him win the clearance. I know its hard to do based on our structure for last 4 years but this could be one of the ways we get him involved in center bounces/stoppages.

 

[Squizz89]

The backline has gone from a real point of difference for us having Kiddy (kicking) and McKenna (running ability) missing. It now looks pretty slow and minus Wilmot, lacking any real run and carry.

I think for this reason I’m taking a punt on upgrading Brain. I also didn’t mind Bruce’s game on the weekend, is he an option at HB?

 

[lionshine]

Cat B rookies can be selected to play AFL. No need to upgrade them to the senior list. The rule changed some time ago.

Fairly certain they allowed that during the Covid years for obvious reasons and kept it in until end of last year where it has changed again to the old rule of needing an upgrade.

 

[dlanod]

Cat B rookies can be selected to play AFL. No need to upgrade them to the senior list. The rule changed some time ago.

The rule changed some time ago explicitly for Cat A rookies. It specifically excluded Cat B rookies, unless there's been a further change in which case I'd like to see some reference to that as I must have missed it (definitely possible).

Edit: ah, it was changed in the 2023 CBA. So not exactly "some time ago", but definitely in place now.

6. AFL Rookie Player Management
(a) AFL Rookie Players will be eligible for selection in an AFL Match.

 

[Squizz89]

As an aside Doedee is doing media today, so looks like he’s in for Thursday.

 

[Jirik13]

The rule changed some time ago explicitly for Cat A rookies. It specifically excluded Cat B rookies, unless there's been a further change in which case I'd like to see some reference to that as I must have missed it (definitely possible).

Edit: ah, it was changed in the 2023 CBA. So not exactly "some time ago", but definitely in place now.

Last year Suns had 2 cat B rookies who played AFL games - Oea and Johnston. Oea also played AFL as cat B in 2022. So it was probably some time ago - possibly during covid?

 

[Jirik13]

Fairly certain they allowed that during the Covid years for obvious reasons and kept it in until end of last year where it has changed again to the old rule of needing an upgrade.

Not sure if AFL reverted it back before this season (I did not see anything) but Suns had cat B rookies playing AFL last 2 years.

 

[martinson]

My thinking with Cam is if we thought he was up to extended midfield minutes we certainly would have done it this year.

I mean we've played Lyons.

I really doubt Cam has the tank or application to be a permanent midfielder but I can understand people pushing for that the way we've been going.

I'm not against trying anything when you're losing , my personal view is that his capacities on here are overrated but not against giving it a go so we know.

 

[McIvor]

You guys are going to kill us, don't fret.


We are too patchy, I watch a lot of footy and from the first 12 quarters we've played this year, 4 of them have been the worst quarters we have played in over 2 years, another week of training isn't going to magically fix it, St Kilda aren't even that good and they beat us lol.


8 -10 goal Lions win coming up.

Don’t worry; we’ll find a way to crap the bed and watch as you run all over us in the second half. At least you guys have a flag to show for everything- we got naught up here.

 

[Kickback Flip]

My thinking with Cam is if we thought he was up to extended midfield minutes we certainly would have done it this year.

I mean we've played Lyons.

I really doubt Cam has the tank or application to be a permanent midfielder but I can understand people pushing for that the way we've been going.

I'm not against trying anything when you're losing , my personal view is that his capacities on here are overrated but not against giving it a go so we know.

I don't know where we play Cam. Up forward, he is playing on the third tallest best opposition defender and he still has only kicked one goal from his last four senior games. And when he is playing as a midfielder, he doesn't have the tank or defensive running capabilities to keep up with his opponents.

 

[Section 5]

That's the problem, he's had time in the middle and time forward. His role is not as a mid and not as a forward. He was all set to play some big midfield minutes, only for us to name Lyons round 0. Against Freo, he only started in the middle TWICE during our worst quarter. In the fourth, he was given 5 centre clearances - he won centre clearances and we had our best quarter.

Until we decide on whether we want to give him a shot as a midfielder or we want him to focus on third tall, he is going to struggle to consistently impact games. The saying "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind. We need to decide a path and stick with it.

Agree that Rayner is still being played as a hybrid fwd/mid but taking up a bit of McCluggage and Baileys midfield time the first 2 games.

It's Rayners time in the midfield that is not all that productive in my opinion.
In other words, McCluggage and Bailey better around the ground picking up possessions that Rayner just can't appear to find.
Those two players will get just about as many clearances as Rayner anyhow.

Rayner just does not appear to know where to place himself around the ground to get possessions like capable midfielders do.
I want more from him around the ground after the CBA.
Maybe it will come (it's been 7 years in the making) but we need consistent midfielders now that can find the ball and get their share of clearances.
Jarryd Lyons is not the answer either but at least he can find the ball around the ground.

I agree the last quarter was our best with 5 goals but that only matched the Dockers 5 goals anyhow.
Below taken from the AFL mobile app.

Rayner v Dockers	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	Total
Disposals	3	4	2	5	14
Time in Def/Fwd %	DEF 100%	DEF 50% FWD 50%	FWD 100%	DEF 67% FWD 33%	DEF 60% FWD 40%
CBA's	1	2	1	5	9
Center Clearances	0	1	0	1	2
Stoppage Clearances	0	0	0	0	0

 

[SpecialBruce]

I'd drop Rayner and give him a 3-4 game block in 2s as the primary ball winning midfielder. Tell him not to wait for anyone and just go for the clearance. Get some instinct, ball hunting style back in him before bringing him back to 1s.

I haven't seen some flying pigs.

 

[SpecialBruce]

It's a strange position, I'm not worried about the disappointment of losing, I'm worried about the disappointment of team annoucement.

If Oscar is in and Forte isn't, that will be the first blow. Berry still being in will be the second. Not putting a tag on Naicos will be the third.

I'm sure there will still be plenty of learnings though, we're collecting plenty of those.

Could Berry be a full time tagger? He certainly played a good role against Oliver in that final a few years back.

 

[Section 5]

I put this in the VFL thread but seeing we are likely to have some changes this week.
Also, i noticed the AFL changed a lot of the stats. I will put any changed disposal stats in (blue)

BRISBANE 99 d Essendon 62

State league affiliate: Brisbane (VFL)
This weekend: Essendon v Brisbane at The Hangar, Saturday March 23, 1.05pm AEDT

MATCH CENTRE Check out all the stats from Brisbane's clash

After being taken in the second round of the 2023 draft, Logan Morris impressed in his first game in a Lions' jumper, kicking four goals in Brisbane's 37-point win over Essendon on Saturday.

James Tunstill kicked two of his own among 31 (33) disposals, while Luke Lloyd kicked a pair of majors from 14 touches.

Also getting in on the action was Jack Payne, the usual key defender slotting two goals of his own.

Jaxon Prior was another to make sure he got noticed with 27 (29) disposals, Harry Sharp had 17 (18) touches and 10 marks, while Darragh Joyce had 15 (17) and eight.

Darcy Fort had a team-high six clearances to go with 29 hitouts and 13 (14) possessions, with good support from fellow ruckman Henry Smith who kicked a goal from 14 touches.

Category B rookies Bruce Reville (24 (27) disposals, five clearances) and Shadeau Brain (13 (15) disposals, eight marks) impressed.

Late 2023 draftee Reece Torrent kicked one goal from 17 (19) touches.

Former Crow Tom Doedee had just eight (9) disposals but got through his first game back from injury, while Kai Lohmann was quiet with just four touches.

 

[Nunez]

Agree that Rayner is still being played as a hybrid fwd/mid but taking up a bit of McCluggage and Baileys midfield time the first 2 games.

It's Rayners time in the midfield that is not all that productive in my opinion.
In other words, McCluggage and Bailey better around the ground picking up possessions that Rayner just can't appear to find.
Those two players will get just about as many clearances as Rayner anyhow.

Rayner just does not appear to know where to place himself around the ground to get possessions like capable midfielders do.
I want more from him around the ground after the CBA.
Maybe it will come (it's been 7 years in the making) but we need consistent midfielders now that can find the ball and get their share of clearances.
Jarryd Lyons is not the answer either but at least he can find the ball around the ground.

I agree the last quarter was our best with 5 goals but that only matched the Dockers 5 goals anyhow.
Below taken from the AFL mobile app.

Rayner v Dockers	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	Total
Disposals	3	4	2	5	14
Time in Def/Fwd %	DEF 100%	DEF 50% FWD 50%	FWD 100%	DEF 67% FWD 33%	DEF 60% FWD 40%
CBA's	1	2	1	5	9
Center Clearances	0	1	0	1	2
Stoppage Clearances	0	0	0	0	0

To be fair it's a bit hard for Cam to become a dominant CBA player when he gets no consistent time in the middle. It's the same challenge Dev is currently facing.

Now we're in a position where we need another mid to stand up and we seem so non committal to any prospect to the point we literally reverted to JL again.

 

[Elixuh]

To be fair it's a bit hard for Cam to become a dominant CBA player when he gets no consistent time in the middle. It's the same challenge Dev is currently facing.

Now we're in a position where we need another mid to stand up and we seem so non committal to any prospect to the point we literally reverted to JL again.

I think that is the big thing for me - we aren’t committed to any promising longer term prospect. We go to JL.

Why no Rayner? Why no Berry?

Berrys outside skills scream that he needs to be played inside where we have seen him dominate in the past. Why we don’t pull that trigger is beyond me. Instead we are playing him in defence.

Edit: just to revise that thought slightly, I can see JL from the perspective of needing a specialist ball winner / in tight distributor with Lachie out (whether or not JL is even hitting those targets is another thing). But you have to surround him with different prospects to balance JLs weaknesses.

 

[Nunez]

I think that is the big thing for me - we aren’t committed to any promising longer term prospect. We go to JL.

Why no Rayner? Why no Berry?

Berrys outside skills scream that he needs to be played inside where we have seen him dominate in the past. Why we don’t pull that trigger is beyond me. Instead we are playing him in defence.

Absolutely. Feels like guys like Berry, Rayner and even Dev are all unsure of their roles and aren't playing their natural style of football. Got to keep it simple for some players.