Unofficial Preview Changes & discussion v the Saints round 13 @ Gabba.

[Tom14]

I nearly got crucified last time I said this but I don't think Harris was all that good last year. He made AA because it was time . He's been much better this year imo and is far more solid. Probably earnt the right to best KPD in the game.

But you're right. He was underwhelming in the finals. The way the ball was coming in in those two games gave him no hope on occasions.

Harris was easily our best player in several games last year, eg v freo and hawthorn at home. Tbh I recall him getting beaten more this year given reduced games eg v Hawkins and lynch to an extent.

But regardless he’s the best KPD in the comp and is being graded on a much harsher curve than everyone else.

 

[Tom14]

Harris was easily our best player in several games last year, eg v freo and hawthorn at home. Tbh I recall him getting beaten more this year given reduced games eg v Hawkins and lynch to an extent.

But regardless he’s the best KPD in the comp and is being graded on a much harsher curve than everyone else.

This chart is pretty illustrative of Harris imo:

 

[Lionsfan1147]

You can barely say skinner got a go in the ruck he had less than a half of the last quarter to rest big o what you expect him to do in 8 minutes of a dead game. Eagles has 2 touches from 2 games, yes 2 like seriously?

 

[martinson]

Harris was easily our best player in several games last year, eg v freo and hawthorn at home. Tbh I recall him getting beaten more this year given reduced games eg v Hawkins and lynch to an extent.

But regardless he’s the best KPD in the comp and is being graded on a much harsher curve than everyone else.

Our M/F was creaming it in most games last year .9 or 10 in a row . I think he's had a lot more to contend with this year and is now cementing his position as best KPD in the game.

But it goes with the territory doesn't it. If you're regarded as the best you get held to a very high standard.

 

[Sanchez365]

This chart is pretty illustrative of Harris imo:

Great quote here. Not only illustrates our huge reliance on Andrews, also shows how badly we have been leaving him on his own. We really need to protect the transition from def 50. You notice there are no tigers defenders on that list of 1v1s.

Back on Witherden, there have been some really good posts about him that I think need to be reiterated. He HAS been less creative and he HAS made a lot of mistakes. I think what has been frustrating me is that it's been when he's going for pretty safe options and missing the target. I think he missed a pretty unpressured, 20m pass from the wing to the center square, which became a turnover and we were immediately opened up. Overall, Witherden hasn't really impressed me so far this year, and his ball use off half back has not opened the game up like Rich and Birchall have.

Lester on the other hand I have been surprised with, and I also thought that was his best game disposal wise I have seen. The Kangas really brought the pressure onto our defenders and there were a couple of times Lester managed to deliver while being tackled. I agree with someone else that said, you can't trust him to always win 1v1s and he seems a bit vanilla, but he has improved dramatically this season where as I dont think Witho has.

 

[JasRulz63]

Nah Harris Andrews our All Australian Full Back does. Speaking about finals though, Adams put in two relatively poor performances in our finals games last year. He had 7 disposals against Richmond and had a slightly better game against GWS with 10 disposals and 5 marks. Tellingly, he only managed to lay a total of 2 tackles from both games. He is slow, a poor decision maker and not much of a kick. He has also never managed to play more than 11 games in any season. Project player at best.

Adams actually did a decent job in the finals last year. Played on Riewoldt who kicked three, however one was from a BS holding the ball against Rich and another was from that Martin throw. Then kept Himmelberg to 0 marks and 0 goals against GWS while leading us in 1%ers.

Leading into finals he lowered his colours to Riewoldt/Martin in round 23, but the week prior he held Hawkins goalless who'd kicked 12 goals from 4 games leading into the match.

He's not a superstar, but he's not as bad as you make him out to be.

 

[cotter101]

Out: Matho, Robinson, Eagles.
In: Rayner, Rich, Payne.

Matho tried hard but I think it’s safe to assume he’s just depth. Robinsons form has been off for a while now. Eagles has been terrible.

Rayner to slot back in up forward. I think he along with Cameron, Ah Chee, McCarthy and McStay gives us some nice marking power.

Rich slots down back. Time for either Starc or Witherden to try their craft on a wing in Robbo’s spot.

Dizzy got found out a little against North. St Kilda have 3 taller types in King, Membrey and the resting ruck in Ryder/Marshall. We need Payne to come back in and do a job.

 

[Scubaveg]

Even if fit Adams is not in our best 22. Here are his stats from the only game he’s played this year in Round 1.

Brisbane Lions - 2020
Gm	Opponent​	Rd	R	#	KI	MK	HB	DI	GL	BH	HO	TK	RB	IF	CL	CG	FF	FA	BR	CP	UP	CM	MI	1%	BO	GA	%P
38​	Hawthorn	1​	L​	24​	2​	1​	3​	5​					2​		1​	1​		1​		4​	1​	1​					85​
	Totals	1 (0-0-1)	2	1	3	5					2		1	1		1		4	1	1

Geez man, he’s definitely best 22 when fit. To say he’s not is just not letting the Walker trade go and seeing things for what they are. We all have our positions and favorite players. But as they say a man with a hammer only sees a nail.


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[Johnny Bananas]

Out: Matho, Robinson, Eagles.
In: Rayner, Rich, Payne.

Matho tried hard but I think it’s safe to assume he’s just depth. Robinsons form has been off for a while now. Eagles has been terrible.

Rayner to slot back in up forward. I think he along with Cameron, Ah Chee, McCarthy and McStay gives us some nice marking power.

Rich slots down back. Time for either Starc or Witherden to try their craft on a wing in Robbo’s spot.

Dizzy got found out a little against North. St Kilda have 3 taller types in King, Membrey and the resting ruck in Ryder/Marshall. We need Payne to come back in and do a job.

I like your reasoning, but who is playing second ruck?

 

[dlanod]

I like the idea of McStay being tried as second ruck. He could also be our number two backman. He's bigger than Gardner who looked too short yesterday.

We don't see key position players being swung from one end to the other anymore. Leppa and Lynchy come to mind. Hipwood was actually recruited as a backman and he has not been back at all that I can remember. Plenty of people have called for Andrews to go forward and he did last year in Ballarat against the Doggies. I was there. Maybe we are too stereotyped.

Not many clubs swap their players around any more. We do so more than most:

• Lester is currently playing as an undersized KPD, has played at both ends.
• McStay has definitely played at both ends.
• Adams started off up forward in the seniors last year for a couple of games.
• Eagles played down back last year and up forward this year.
• Skinner has played at both ends in the reserves, as have most of our reserve talls.
• And then in recent years, obviously Walker, Patfull and Merrett played both ends at different times and match-ups.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

Not many clubs swap their players around any more. We do so more than most:

• Lester is currently playing as an undersized KPD, has played at both ends.
• McStay has definitely played at both ends.
• Adams started off up forward in the seniors last year for a couple of games.
• Eagles played down back last year and up forward this year.
• Skinner has played at both ends in the reserves, as have most of our reserve talls.
• And then in recent years, obviously Walker, Patfull and Merrett played both ends at different times and match-ups.

This post supports my contention that we haven't swopped players around much recently. Lester and McStay have been 'maroned" for three or four years in their respective positions. Patfull and Merret were years ago. They haven't played for us for how many years but it was interesting that both of them found their 'rightful' positions a fair way into their careers. Both were basically failures up foward but so much better down back.

Adams showed nothing up forward but looked OK down back which is my opinion on McStay. Given the injuries to Stef, Archie and Adams maybe we need to think outside the box a little.

In my opinion anyone is an upgrade on Eagles who has no upside. IF we are not going to put games into youngsters lets try a competent player in a new position, i.e. McStay into the ruck. Playing Hipwood in the ruck just might toughen him up a bit.

Let's hope Stef gets back fit for the finals

PS I now know why 3KZ loves Lester so much. The youtube video gave it away

 

[Ralphy2017]

I wouldn't mind seeing Deven Robertson get another game. He is going to be a gun.

yes would be good to see Dev get a game, and perhaps during the condensed rounds.

 

[Quigley]

Geez man, he’s definitely best 22 when fit. To say he’s not is just not letting the Walker trade go and seeing things for what they are. We all have our positions and favorite players. But as they say a man with a hammer only sees a nail.


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Fages loves to play the players he brought in and Adams is a case in point. Objectively though he has been inconsistent when he has played and has been out for a long time now and so should rightly be in the fringe 22 category. Given he also seems to not fit in to the structure Fagan has religiously stuck to this year I would have thought he was outside the 22.

 

[Lion_LegacyXL]

IN: Rich, Rayner, CEY, Payne
OUT: Witho, Berry, Robbo, Eagles

Would like to see either Bundy, Cox or Coleman included to provide some speed/ run & carry, not sure who they'd replace Ah Chee?

 

[beardancer]

I've banged on about this before but but eagles can def play on the big, big forwards and resting rucks. Payne can be a second big defender given we can get some games into him, this allows dizzy to play on the mid sized attacker. Rich and birch as distributors and Noah as a speedy role player.
I just don't see how witho can get a game. Looking at the kangas game he was poor. The guy isn't a great kick, he's very slow and he's a poor mark.
The point of restructuring the backline is to allow Andrews to play full forward. He's one of the best contested marks in the game and if he doesn't mark his bring to grounds would allow our small s more opportunity to score. At present Hipwood stands under the ball, he gets out bodied and the ball rebounds too easily. Moving Harris to ff would allow hippy to get more mobile, get some chest marks on the lead and kick more from 60 meters.
I reckon a forward combination of Harris and bigO would be devastating.

 

[TheZork]

I've banged on about this before but but eagles can def play on the big, big forwards and resting rucks. Payne can be a second big defender given we can get some games into him, this allows dizzy to play on the mid sized attacker. Rich and birch as distributors and Noah as a speedy role player.
I just don't see how witho can get a game. Looking at the kangas game he was poor. The guy isn't a great kick, he's very slow and he's a poor mark.
The point of restructuring the backline is to allow Andrews to play full forward. He's one of the best contested marks in the game and if he doesn't mark his bring to grounds would allow our small s more opportunity to score. At present Hipwood stands under the ball, he gets out bodied and the ball rebounds too easily. Moving Harris to ff would allow hippy to get more mobile, get some chest marks on the lead and kick more from 60 meters.
I reckon a forward combination of Harris and bigO would be devastating.

Whilst that sounds great, Payne and Eagles as our 1st and 2nd defenders would be a disaster. Maybe if one of them were established players it would be fine, but the reality is that they have a hand full of games between them. I agree on Witherden though, with Birchall in the team I don't see a spot for him. I'd be dropping Lester and Witherden to make our back 7: Payne, Andrews, Gardiner, Starcevich, Answerth, Rich and Birchall. Lester is extremely stiff but unsure how he could fit in there unless we moved Starcevich to the wing.

 

[Dylan12]

At present Hipwood stands under the ball, he gets out bodied and the ball rebounds too easily.

Out bodied, soft, weak, numerous other adjectives that highlight how much Eric dislikes the hard stuff as this clip evidences:

 

[Ironmonger]

Out bodied, soft, weak, numerous other adjectives that highlight how much Eric dislikes the hard stuff as this clip evidences:

His foot positioning was poor but otherwise that clip shows nothing that you say it does.

Hipwood is ungainly and consequently isn't great in a one-on-one, but he isn't soft or weak.

Yours was a pointlessly inflammatory comment. Less importantly, it was wrong.

 

[Tom14]

His foot positioning was poor but otherwise that clip shows nothing that you say it does.

Hipwood is ungainly and consequently isn't great in a one-on-one, but he isn't soft or weak.

Yours was a pointlessly inflammatory comment. Less importantly, it was wrong.

There were many worse efforts at the ball late in the game, e.g Robbo focusing on bumping his man and leaving the ball behind and Zorko refusing to bend over and pick the ball up and fluffing an attempting soccer.

Zurhaar is a tank and his centre of gravity is 20cm below Hippy. No shame getting bowled over, though there are some technique things for him to work on.

 

[Ralphy2017]

Harris should be able to handle him fine. If he sticks to him. He seems to have been caught out a lot recently trying to cover every other contest

Harris will need to put in some 'body work' on King, because King is fast and agile

 

[Ironmonger]

There were many worse efforts at the ball late in the game, e.g Robbo focusing on bumping his man and leaving the ball behind and Zorko refusing to bend over and pick the ball up and fluffing an attempting soccer.

Zurhaar is a tank and his centre of gravity is 20cm below Hippy. No shame getting bowled over, though there are some technique things for him to work on.

Zorko's efforts below the knees are a concern. Maybe it's a product of getting older, but I think in general he tries to do a lot of things too quickly. I don't think anyone would accuse him of shirking contact or not doing the team things. He just gets over-eager in the moment. Probably true for Robbo as well.

 

[Tom14]

Zorko's efforts below the knees are a concern. Maybe it's a product of getting older, but I think in general he tries to do a lot of things too quickly. I don't think anyone would accuse him of shirking contact or not doing the team things. He just gets over-eager in the moment. Probably true for Robbo as well.

Yeah, the effort and endeavour is there but the finishing touches and the decision-making is a little off. Hard to tell whether it is the injury, age or a run of poor form.

His goal kicking is a big concern right now too - he used to be very very reliable but I assume he will miss these days.

 

[KissKiss]

Im wondering if there is a little bit of coaching at the moment in all the kicks off the ground. We seem to have been doing it a lot recently to try and move the ball faster rather than grab it. Also fits with the standing back and not being first to the ball. This might be be a factor with the changed HTB rules and players being a bit uncertain around them.

Add seeing Richmond being very successful with the deliberate tapping the ball forward game plan being so successful

 

[Ralphy2017]

But we don't want to be getting exposed like Port for being undersized, I think thats the issue here. Take next weekend for example. Andrews on King, Gardiner on Membrey and Lester (191cm) on their resting ruck. Seems like a recipe for disaster. Same against Richmond and Geelong. I agree the 3 we've been running with have been alright, but I think we need to be more flexible if we're playing against teams with more talls. Which is why Payne needs to play.

One of the posters mentioned Payne seemed to be going well against Majek DAW yesterday in the ressie match. Still raw but I think has a lot of upside. Lester played OK against North but did get outmarked a couple of times eg Bailey in 2nd Q and was not up against a gun, but again did play well. For some reason Membrey seems to play taller than he is.

In: Payne, wasn't all that bad in the debut against Richmond, although needs to improve body work when running with forward down the line. Has the speed to take King (out probably Lester, bit stiff)
In: Rich ( out maybe Answerth, but unlucky, but who else, unless because of lack of speed Birchall 'managed')
In: Ballenden one more go to fire up in the ruck, but does offer more up the ground as a resting forward, if does not perform then work hard in the off season to become our 2nd ruck( Eagles out)
In: Coleman (Rest Charlie, get him right for the upcoming games leading into the finals)

Don't risk RAYNOR IF any doubt about hammy better to rest with The bye next week and then the condensed rounds leading into the finals.

Saints have speed with Butler and a few others and also height in their forwards, and yesterday was a bruise free encounter against Essendon. They will be ready next Sunday at the Gabba.

 

[Dylan12]

His foot positioning was poor but otherwise that clip shows nothing that you say it does.

Hipwood is ungainly and consequently isn't great in a one-on-one, but he isn't soft or weak.

Yours was a pointlessly inflammatory comment. Less importantly, it was wrong.

There was only one player that wanted the ball and it wasn't Hipwood. It was a half hearted attempt to win the footy and the guy that wanted it and was prepared to crack in got it. I'm genuinely staggered anyone would think otherwise.