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Said Moran to spark some debate, i also mentioned Maric's 4 clangers. 0 Marks is a bit of a worry, thought he had some good taps. Didn't Griff injure himself hence not getting selected after beating Maric in the SANFL?
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Said Moran to spark some debate, i also mentioned Maric's 4 clangers. 0 Marks is a bit of a worry, thought he had some good taps. Didn't Griff injure himself hence not getting selected after beating Maric in the SANFL?
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The more I think about it the more I'm thinking Walker
Thats what im worried about. What was his game time like, i didn't see him too much, maybe playing a different role? Dangerfield looked to be playing the traditional lead up forward role and did it well (except missing, could've had 4 easily) Also looks like Walkers down on confidence a bit missing a couple of shots he would normally gobble up in the SANFL, but hes not gonna learn much going back.
Also thought Stevens played a serviceable game, looked steady in defence, bit more confidence which is a good sign, very important to our team when hes fit. No way hes getting dropped.
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Wasn't everyone calling for Moran to play on Franklin in the pre-season last year? Could be interesting. Would do ok on the lead i suspect, but body strength he would be in trouble, isn't physical enough for an 100kg lad.
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Walker got 0.2 - set shot after the 3/4 time siren, and a 'set play' dish off from Doughty in the third quarter, 55 metres out from the boundary line.
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Firstly, I hope like hell that Bock comes up this week.
As much as I don't really rate Moran, I think that he may be the better option (than Walker) against the Hawks this week. Hawthorn won't give Walker space to lead into, and Moran's height could better expose Hawthorn's defence. Play him and Tippet up forward at the same time for periods of the game. Campbell will probably take Tippett but Moran could potentially expose Dowler for height and agility.
Symes won't be dropped because he is too important this week, coming up against the solid bodies of Sewell, Mitchell, Guerra and Lewis.
As much as I don't really rate Moran, I think that he may be the better option (than Walker) against the Hawks this week. Hawthorn won't give Walker space to lead into, and Moran's height could better expose Hawthorn's defence. Play him and Tippet up forward at the same time for periods of the game. Campbell will probably take Tippett but Moran could potentially expose Dowler for height and agility.
Symes won't be dropped because he is too important this week, coming up against the solid bodies of Sewell, Mitchell, Guerra and Lewis.
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Bock obviously comes back in if fit.
Given Craig's usual preference for a shorter team over a taller one, I'd say a tall will go. The only way a smaller bloke will go is if Stevens resumes the tall utility midfielder role that he often played last year. If this occured Reilly or Symes would be the possible omissions, with Stevens realeased to play the running half-back or defensive mid roles (all 3 are tallish and slow for mids so it's not as silly as it sounds). I'd strongly consider the option but Reilly improved his game despite some poor choices for options to dispose to and Symes is a tough nut despite his errors.
The only tall options would seem to be Walker, Moran, Maric, Stevens.
It's a huge selection because it really establishes the pecking order and structure Craig prefers now Bock is back.
I highly doubt Stevens will be dropped. Still not playing to his best but is slowly returning to form, is certainly in our preferred line-up and is good experienced back-up if rutten or Bock go down or get thrashed.
So that leaves Walker and the rucks.
If it were a 'one week only' decision, maybe Walker would go but i don't believe he will as he fits in our overall structure now.
So i reckon the rucks are in danger once more.
Moran was the better player in pretty much every area (including disposals if you count effective ones only!).
But who is the favoured one? I reckon it could be Ivan.
It's hard to tell whether Maric played forward so much because Moran was seen as the better centre bounce ruckman, or whether Moran rucked in the centre more because Maric was seen as the better forward option
I wonder if it's a bit of both because i noted even when Maric was in the ruck, Tippett often took the centre bounces before heading forward.
If Moran is dropped, it is clearly a 'favoured one' situation. But the writing is on the wall given Maric had 72% game time compared to Moran's 45%. Hardly a chance to strut your stuff and actually find the ball regularly.
My prediction is that whoever gets the nod this week will pop up with 2-3 goals up forward and seal their spot for a while to come.
Huge selection.
Given Craig's usual preference for a shorter team over a taller one, I'd say a tall will go. The only way a smaller bloke will go is if Stevens resumes the tall utility midfielder role that he often played last year. If this occured Reilly or Symes would be the possible omissions, with Stevens realeased to play the running half-back or defensive mid roles (all 3 are tallish and slow for mids so it's not as silly as it sounds). I'd strongly consider the option but Reilly improved his game despite some poor choices for options to dispose to and Symes is a tough nut despite his errors.
The only tall options would seem to be Walker, Moran, Maric, Stevens.
It's a huge selection because it really establishes the pecking order and structure Craig prefers now Bock is back.
I highly doubt Stevens will be dropped. Still not playing to his best but is slowly returning to form, is certainly in our preferred line-up and is good experienced back-up if rutten or Bock go down or get thrashed.
So that leaves Walker and the rucks.
If it were a 'one week only' decision, maybe Walker would go but i don't believe he will as he fits in our overall structure now.
So i reckon the rucks are in danger once more.
Moran was the better player in pretty much every area (including disposals if you count effective ones only!).
But who is the favoured one? I reckon it could be Ivan.
It's hard to tell whether Maric played forward so much because Moran was seen as the better centre bounce ruckman, or whether Moran rucked in the centre more because Maric was seen as the better forward option
I wonder if it's a bit of both because i noted even when Maric was in the ruck, Tippett often took the centre bounces before heading forward.If Moran is dropped, it is clearly a 'favoured one' situation. But the writing is on the wall given Maric had 72% game time compared to Moran's 45%. Hardly a chance to strut your stuff and actually find the ball regularly.
My prediction is that whoever gets the nod this week will pop up with 2-3 goals up forward and seal their spot for a while to come.
Huge selection.
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The thing that pisses me off, is Moran.
lol, don't take that the wrong way, but watching him is the defenition of frustration.
His disposal is generally bloody good, not just by ruck standard either.
I saw him bup Kruzer to the ground 1 minute into the game and thought it may be a change.
He could be fantastic. Good skills, top line height, midfield movement, bloody hell.
Ivan, while having a lions heart, isn't gifted with that. He's about 5cm off being a very good ruck, but because he doesn't have that leap Moran has of the height and reach Griff does, he's in that alkward position,.
Not writting Ivan off at all, but with the ruck situation the way it is, and Craig showing love for small line ups, it will be hard on at least 1, more likely 2 of our bigs.
lol, don't take that the wrong way, but watching him is the defenition of frustration.
His disposal is generally bloody good, not just by ruck standard either.
I saw him bup Kruzer to the ground 1 minute into the game and thought it may be a change.
He could be fantastic. Good skills, top line height, midfield movement, bloody hell.
Ivan, while having a lions heart, isn't gifted with that. He's about 5cm off being a very good ruck, but because he doesn't have that leap Moran has of the height and reach Griff does, he's in that alkward position,.
Not writting Ivan off at all, but with the ruck situation the way it is, and Craig showing love for small line ups, it will be hard on at least 1, more likely 2 of our bigs.
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If Ivan can get back to the form he was in last season, he'll make it.
He was really outstanding for a young ruckman. His output was similar to Hudson's, who I still rate as a quality ruckman. Maric is pretty much the same size as him, has the same aggressive streak and desire to win the hard ball, plus he proved he can kick a goal or two a game resting forward. Hudson was a quality lead ruckman for us, and his ACL in 05 was one of the main reasons we didn't make the grand final IMO. There's no reason Maric couldn't be equally as good for us.
He hasn't quite shown the kind of form we need from him this season, but he hasn't been as far off it as some would suggest. I thought he was very good in the first two rounds in particular. Dropped off a bit, yes, but Ivan's a fighter and he'll come good again soon. It's easy to underrate just how important having a bloke like him in the middle can be as it doesn't really translate into stats particularly well, but with blokes like Mackay, Vince, Douglas (who are still a few kilos short of where they need to be) around the stoppages, having a big bloke who's not at all afraid to dive in there and throw his body around is vital. He might not be as convincing with his own taps, but you know if he doesn't win it, the opposition won't be coming away with the ball easily.
I don't have the stats, so this is purely an observation, but I'd say that Moran and Griffin are more likely to win clean taps, but their opposition are too, whereas Maric might not come away with as many taps to advantage, but I'd be surprised if his opposing ruckman did either. That's not to say he's a nullifying or defensive ruckman, just that he tends to jump INTO his man, whereas Griffin and Moran use their athleticism and reach to jump over or past him (though Moran's refusal to jump at contests at all lately has reallly baffled me). Right now, I prefer Ivan's approach. If either Griff or Moran had his aggression and attack on the ball, they'd clearly be #1 in my eyes.
But they don't... yet.
He was really outstanding for a young ruckman. His output was similar to Hudson's, who I still rate as a quality ruckman. Maric is pretty much the same size as him, has the same aggressive streak and desire to win the hard ball, plus he proved he can kick a goal or two a game resting forward. Hudson was a quality lead ruckman for us, and his ACL in 05 was one of the main reasons we didn't make the grand final IMO. There's no reason Maric couldn't be equally as good for us.
He hasn't quite shown the kind of form we need from him this season, but he hasn't been as far off it as some would suggest. I thought he was very good in the first two rounds in particular. Dropped off a bit, yes, but Ivan's a fighter and he'll come good again soon. It's easy to underrate just how important having a bloke like him in the middle can be as it doesn't really translate into stats particularly well, but with blokes like Mackay, Vince, Douglas (who are still a few kilos short of where they need to be) around the stoppages, having a big bloke who's not at all afraid to dive in there and throw his body around is vital. He might not be as convincing with his own taps, but you know if he doesn't win it, the opposition won't be coming away with the ball easily.
I don't have the stats, so this is purely an observation, but I'd say that Moran and Griffin are more likely to win clean taps, but their opposition are too, whereas Maric might not come away with as many taps to advantage, but I'd be surprised if his opposing ruckman did either. That's not to say he's a nullifying or defensive ruckman, just that he tends to jump INTO his man, whereas Griffin and Moran use their athleticism and reach to jump over or past him (though Moran's refusal to jump at contests at all lately has reallly baffled me). Right now, I prefer Ivan's approach. If either Griff or Moran had his aggression and attack on the ball, they'd clearly be #1 in my eyes.
But they don't... yet.
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Depends. According to the Sunday Mail he kicked a goal. Play of the day in fact. According to the hundreds of thousands of others who watched the game though, he didn't.I'm sure he kicked one from a set shot?
Footywire.com is where I usually get my stats from and they say he didn't kick any, so I must have been wrong.
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Unchanged unless Bock is fit in which case Maric out
..... IMO too top heavy otherwise for the type of game played today
..... IMO too top heavy otherwise for the type of game played today
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If Bock is fit:
In: Bock
Out: Moran
If not then there will be no change.
In: Bock
Out: Moran
If not then there will be no change.
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This isn't the week to be dropping a key forward. The one achilles heel Hawthorn have at the moment is height in their backlines. No Croad, no Gilham. Campbell Brown on Sandilands? 
Moran, Walker and Stevens must all play, even if Bock comes in.
Symes would seem the logical one to go out for Bock. Very unlucky.
Moran, Walker and Stevens must all play, even if Bock comes in.
Symes would seem the logical one to go out for Bock. Very unlucky.
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If Bock is fit he plays. He is the one player in the comp who can stand up to a fit Buddy, who is far from in form. He did it last year when Clarko resorted to playing Buddy across half back to get into the game.
As for who goes out, tough one.
As for who goes out, tough one.
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I'm pretty sure he didn't kick one, but in the Sunday Mail, they did this "key play" thing and that ended with Walker kicking a goal - but in the box with the best players, goals, injuries, etc, Walker's name wasn't there in the Goals and in the Stats it said he kicked 0.2
That is odd.
I'll just assume that they got the name wrong and that my memory is wrong.
I'll just assume that they got the name wrong and that my memory is wrong.
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IMO if we go tall for tall then Moran should go out, only because he has had 3 weeks to get accustomed to AFL footy and Maric has had just the one, I agree that they were both as bad as each other (also Moran's bump was not a bump at all it was hand around the body, which is a tad clumsy...)
I do however like the playing tall idea, will only work if we keep the majority of the forward line deep though... I thought Symes was OK on the weekend and if we are to drop a small then maybe it should be Danger- although he would be very stiff I'm not sure that he added that much on the w/e we obviously were looking to kick it to him in the first half and he struggled to convert and he was used as a forward so if Bock goes to CHB and stevo goes forward..
I would like to point out that I love Danger and his ferocity at the ball, just trying to throw up alternatives not be a ******** i promise!
I do however like the playing tall idea, will only work if we keep the majority of the forward line deep though... I thought Symes was OK on the weekend and if we are to drop a small then maybe it should be Danger- although he would be very stiff I'm not sure that he added that much on the w/e we obviously were looking to kick it to him in the first half and he struggled to convert and he was used as a forward so if Bock goes to CHB and stevo goes forward..
I would like to point out that I love Danger and his ferocity at the ball, just trying to throw up alternatives not be a ******** i promise!
Short of injury or breaking the law I can't see any way Danger is getting dropped this week.
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This logic is fine if the bloke who has played 3 weeks hasn't improved but i defy anyone who has watched him closely to say Moran hasn't improved in the key areas us supporters are generally unhappy about.
Ruckwork...improved, and this week against 'peers' who are young but genuine rucks (unlike Clark who wasn't deemed a true ruck by most last week), check out his tap efficiency this week...best ruck on the ground in this area by a mile (though i do believe some credit goes to a more determined midfield also to want to actually get in and receive the tap).
Ball use...first week in his hands were clean but simply looked like a ruckman who couldn't do anything but handball to the closest bloke. While starved of game time this week he did show very good foot skills as well. Official stats show 100% disposal efficiency yet 2 clangers?? Wrong, there were no clangers.
Intensity at the contest...if we all take off our various glasses we should concur that there has been a vast improvement in this area YET there is a bloody long way to go as well. Hence, as Wall-E has said, he is a frustrating player. This week he started to jump high (and hard into the opposition at times), he tried to get down on the ground a few times to contest second efforts (didn't look heaps natural for him but its an improvement), he made a couple of tackles (one of which had excellent aggression), he backed into a pack on the outer wing very courageously. However, there were 2-3 marking contests he appeared to go soft intensity again (spoiling Hampson from behind, falling forward too easy when pushed in front)...he MUST eradicate this from his game.
Workrate defensively...difficult to comment on from a replay but i did spot him plug gaps a few times, get a mark on the last line, and run back hard on a couple of occasions. No doubt this area a work in progress. (His workrate to provide an option going forward was good, noticed a few times he wasn't used...sometimes this was a good call, sometimes bad).
Gotta agree the free against him was rubbish. The one against Maric was also rubbish.
No question Moran was much improved from his previous outing. Hopefully he can continue to improve and not just stagnate or slip backwards again.
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Excellent post Left Fist.
Moran is improving every week and is looking a lot better than 3 weeks ago.
Personally I think his work rate to get back behind the ball is ok, he's not bad plugging the gaps and the mark deep in defence on the weekend was timely.
My biggest beef with him is getting him to fight like mad when the ball is in dispute. Ie, when there is a 50/50 loose ball, or when there is a pack to back in to (or jump forward in to) etc etc. I've stuck up for him a bit as I think we need to bear in mind he's only played < 20 AFL games, but the improvement is there. That tackle on the weekend may have also given him some belief that he can do the hard stuff.
I'd also like to see him sneak forward and get some more ball forward of centre. I haven't really seen him work over the opposition ruckman with some hard running, so hopefully this will come with time. Jolly is a good example of this and I saw him do it to Brogan a few times on the weekend.
I'm not sure who is to go out of the side this week if Bock comes back, but possibly it may be one of the ruckmen (Moran or Maric), Walker (for a run in the SANFL) or a mid (Reilly or Symes).
Moran is improving every week and is looking a lot better than 3 weeks ago.
Personally I think his work rate to get back behind the ball is ok, he's not bad plugging the gaps and the mark deep in defence on the weekend was timely.
My biggest beef with him is getting him to fight like mad when the ball is in dispute. Ie, when there is a 50/50 loose ball, or when there is a pack to back in to (or jump forward in to) etc etc. I've stuck up for him a bit as I think we need to bear in mind he's only played < 20 AFL games, but the improvement is there. That tackle on the weekend may have also given him some belief that he can do the hard stuff.
I'd also like to see him sneak forward and get some more ball forward of centre. I haven't really seen him work over the opposition ruckman with some hard running, so hopefully this will come with time. Jolly is a good example of this and I saw him do it to Brogan a few times on the weekend.
I'm not sure who is to go out of the side this week if Bock comes back, but possibly it may be one of the ruckmen (Moran or Maric), Walker (for a run in the SANFL) or a mid (Reilly or Symes).
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Totally agree with your critique of his game and where he can improve. Jolly is actually a great role-model for his current stage and potential game style
Re selection it's going to be a question of which eggs do we put in the basket as we are gonna have to rob Peter to pay Paul somehow. Where will the match be won or lost? Either way Bock is a massive plus.
Do we care most about stopping the Hawk forwards? If so, Stevens must play and must have the option strcuturally of getting him back in defence.
Do we care most about our forward structure and having the ability to stretch the undermanned Hawk defence and back ourselves in to kick a winning score with big targets to complement the gun mid-sized forwards? If so, we keep the 3 rucks.
Do we care most about 'running deep' in the midfield, with a heap of rotations to match both sides preference for hard-running football? If so Symes/Reilly stay in.
How do we break this deadlock?
For mine, despite his brilliance down back, i believe that we can accomodate the extra tall in the side IF we are willing to throw Otten in as a midfielder if required. I'd start him at half back but know that if we need more rotations he could play in the middle (or swap with Stevens BP/mid). McLeod back to defence to give them something to think about (do they want a defensive forward or let McLeod run loose).
B: Stevens, Rutten, Johncock
HB: McLeod, Bock, Otten
C: Mackay, Vince, Reilly
HF: Knights, Tippett, Goodwin (loose man in defence if that's the preference)
F: Dangerfield, Walker, Porplyzia
1R: Moran, Doughty, Thompson
Int: Maric, van Berlo, Edwards, Douglas
IN: Bock
OUT: Symes
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Why do people want to suggest Walker to be dropped? Hes only leading the clubs shots on goal, with around 60% game time...
The 3 rucks experiment worked well. Like Moran to get more time forward than Ivan though. Ivan isnt a great mark where I think Moran is much better. Moran should stay in, I think he took steps in the right direction, clearly shown by the seemingly 50/50 opinion of him in this thread as opposed to the 10/90 from recent weeks.
Symes will probably be the unlucky one
The 3 rucks experiment worked well. Like Moran to get more time forward than Ivan though. Ivan isnt a great mark where I think Moran is much better. Moran should stay in, I think he took steps in the right direction, clearly shown by the seemingly 50/50 opinion of him in this thread as opposed to the 10/90 from recent weeks.
Symes will probably be the unlucky one
I'd expect him to be dropped at some stage, just to go back, play more game time, and smash it in the SANFL for a couple of weeks. Probably wont be this week though.
Out: Symes
In: Bock
Symes pretty unlucky though, he certainly isn't playing the worst of those in the team, just a matchup/structure issue.
