Changes for next week

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Or far worse prepared if the kids who play develop bad habits (which is what Craig is trying to prevent), or if they have their confidence/egos dented by being played before they're ready.

Swings and roundabouts... It's by no means proven that bottoming out and playing the kids prematurely has any positive benefits at all, let alone that doing so is better than the alternative.

So we shouldnt be playing walker then ???

There are a number of players on our list that arent ready, let me repeat it for the umpteenth time I dont not want our side full of players who arent ready. Everyone seems to have this view that I want Guston, Talia etc in our side I have never pushed for that (there have been some on here that have though ), I have merely said that those players that have reached that stage in their development where they are ready to develop at AFL level need to be given the opportunity to do so.

We have three such players that are at the stage where they are either close or already at the level where they need to be elevated through the side (Walker, Davis and Sloane), these are the types of players that we need to make sure we give every opportunity possible to develop.

 

[Vader]

So we shouldnt be playing walker then ???

Where have I ever suggested that we shouldn't be playing Walker? I'm firmly planted on the Walker in, Burton out bandwagon. That said, I'd be more than happy with Burton out, Dangermouse in this week instead.

Right now though, Burton is the only senior player I can make a case for omitting. Edwards, Goodwin and McLeod are all safe. Doughty had a shocker against Port, but shored his position up (as far as Neil Craig) is concerned with a good showing against Richmond. Stevens is still getting back up to speed after his concussion, so that buys him a bit of leeway.

 

[relapse]

Where have I ever suggested that we shouldn't be playing Walker? I'm firmly planted on the Walker in, Burton out bandwagon. That said, I'd be more than happy with Burton out, Dangermouse in this week instead.

Right now though, Burton is the only senior player I can make a case for omitting. Edwards, Goodwin and McLeod are all safe. Doughty had a shocker against Port, but shored his position up (as far as Neil Craig) is concerned with a good showing against Richmond. Stevens is still getting back up to speed after his concussion, so that buys him a bit of leeway.

Well I was responding to a post suggesting that even though Burton is in his final year that it is better for us to play him into form rather than playing a developing player like Walker and then you have gone onto some sort of tangent about dropping all the players.

As I said in a previous post Edwards and Doughty have not had great form this year, but with our depth being so non-existant at the moment they are both safe. Once our injury situation improves I would than be annoyed if we are holding someone like Sloane out of our side if a player like Edwards or Doughty were still struggling.

As for Stevens I have no issues with his spot in the side, he has a future past 2010 at our club and I have never advocated to drop him from the side. While I didnt agree with rushing him back into the side as we did, that doesnt mean that I don't consider him as a first 22 player because it is actually the opposite. As far I am concerned he is the only utility we have on our list now that Hentschel's career is pretty much finished. he has far too much versatility not to be in our side.

 

[Vader]

Well I was responding to a post suggesting that even though Burton is in his final year that it is better for us to play him into form rather than playing a developing player like Walker and then you have gone onto some sort of tangent about dropping all the players.

Can't have been one of mine.

My comments (in this thread) about Burton have been as follows:

This is where the Burton/Walker issue comes to the fore - Burton is NOT performing to an acceptable standard and should be dropped as a result.

The reality of our current situation is that there are only 1 or 2 veterans with viable alternatives at present. Those under the hammer would be Burton (Walker - well documented) and Stevens (who could be dropped to make way for Griffin as the 2nd ruckman). The situation with Stevens' concussion makes his current performance a little harder to judge than Burton's.

and

Where have I ever suggested that we shouldn't be playing Walker? I'm firmly planted on the Walker in, Burton out bandwagon. That said, I'd be more than happy with Burton out, Dangermouse in this week instead.

Right now though, Burton is the only senior player I can make a case for omitting.

I'm really not sure where you got the idea that I was supportive of Burton's continued selection.

 

[Southerntakeover]

.......you heard that on the TV commentary didn't you .......and now you've taken it and passing it on as fact .....oh you fool

Or he could just use the evidence before his eyes?

Multiple shots falling short from previously kickable distances perhaps?


I dont think you're actually in a position to call anyone a fool given your performances over the last month or so.

 

[Wood_Duck]

Well I was responding to a post suggesting that even though Burton is in his final year that it is better for us to play him into form rather than playing a developing player like Walker

Yep we should try and have Burton cherry ripe for our run to the finals.

 

[WALL-e]

It has its weakness in that regard sure.

But it's like tackles - that stat is a massive focus for the competition right now. There are many subjective interpretations associated with tackle count but the big things is this - you win the tackle count and you usually win (or many clubs have stated that I actually have not analysed this one myself).

So you can easily measure tackles and their 'rough' accuracy on impacting results.

Can split them into effective and non effective tackles along with tackles that pin the ball and rewarded tackles. Just not available for public consumption.

On that note, we've have a ton of inefective tackles, why don't we pin the arms?

 

[SydCrow]

we know how much store Craig apparently places in training - I wonder what Burton's kicking is like in training?

 

[SydCrow]

Can split them into effective and non effective tackles along with tackles that pin the ball and rewarded tackles. Just not available for public consumption.

On that note, we've have a ton of inefective tackles, why don't we pin the arms?

or just grab one arm and pull - the umpires seem to be calling play on a lot more where the ball is knocked free - many arms pinned tackles don't seem to get rewarded like they were earlier in the year

 

[WaynesWorld19]

So you talk shit and call me a fool and the course of action you are suggesting is I stop reading the fact you are insulting me?

Never called you a fool

 

[Alex99]

we know how much store Craig apparently places in training - I wonder what Burton's kicking is like in training?

at this time of the year with his body and knees like they are, how much training does Brett Burton do.

 

[SydCrow]

at this time of the year with his body and knees like they are, how much training does Brett Burton do.

good question - I wonder if anyone knows?

I could imagine that if he was training the house down - we know how fit he is - it would make it tougher to drop him

maybe he and Tex should have some one on ones and a goal kicking play-off???

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I readily accept that Vince & Thompson have been poor this season and that Burton is certainly not on his Pat Malone in that regard. There are a couple of fundamental differences though.

Firstly Vince and Thompson, the two you named, are getting a LOT more of the pill than Burton. In the last 2 weeks Vince has had 44 disposals and Thompson 44. Burton has managed just 23. Their usage of the ball, unfortunately, has been just as bad as Burton's.

Secondly, Vince and Thompson are both considerably younger than Burton and will probably be around for our next attack on the finals. Vince is 24, Thompson is 27, Burton is 32 and won't be around past the end of 2010.

Thirdly, Vince and Thompson don't have any ready made replacements waiting in the wings at the moment - the only options for replacing them at present are Armstrong, Sloane and (maybe) Gunston. We can only hope that the players returning from injury are able to step things up and put pressure on the incumbents in our midfield. In contrast, Burton has Walker waiting, ready and willing. Walker might not be a massive upgrade on Burton given his current form - but Burton is 32 and spiralling rapidly downwards at the end of his career, Walker is 20 and his star is on the rise. There is little to no justification for continuing to select Burton ahead of Walker.

Vader your last highlighted point continues to be behind the "focussed" attack on Burton

I am still to be convinced in any way shape or form that Burton is keeping Walker out ............ It's not as if our forward line is kicking big scores and can't accept another good forward .....I am sure when Knights is available he'll come in and Burton also will remain

And given the club was trying to get Walker to play a Knights type role that eventuality would end this debate

The Bulldogs were discussed on the weekend and since Barry Hall has been the focus the bulldog scoring averages have dropped this year v last year
Last year a spread of goal kickers ....this year more ball IIRC 50%+ going to Hall
It was said the Bulldogs forwrd entry pattern has become too predictable ......which led me to thinking about Tippett as really the sole tall (yeah I know Stevens, but he hardly demands the ball)

At our best we had three talls operating in our forwrd line which then brings about that unpredictability of targets

It seems the club who has always said it favors tall well built sides and IMO it would be looking for Walker and one of Davis/McKernan/Sellar to step up.

Now for your earlier points:

Stats in todays game are a waste "generally"

Behind the ball you can rack up "cheap" stats which actually contributes nothing to the game ........and we've racked up a lot of disposals as we've crabbed slowly all over the park each week

Vince & Thompson may have had stats but their effectiveness has been minimal

Thompson has gone handball happy ......seems to not want to kick and has been lazily handballing often to players under pressure or missing targets

Vince spends too much time behind the ball and offensively his influence this year over last year is minimal

 

[Elite Crow]

Never called you a fool

WW are you losing it? See below, it was only this arvo, surely your memory cant be that bad?

.......you heard that on the TV commentary didn't you .......and now you've taken it and passing it on as fact .....oh you fool

 

[Allbetsroff]

Waynes world party time excellent. Characters in that movie were slow witted and dull. Appropriate name.

 

[BACCS]

Did anyone get the indication that Dangerfield had to train really well tomorrow, not because of his hand injury, but due to a lack of form? Surely he is straight back in if fit? He is a best 22 player for christ sakes. Just heard this on 9 news.

 

[Southerntakeover]

WW are you losing it? See below, it was only this arvo, surely your memory cant be that bad?

 

[Allbetsroff]

Did anyone get the indication that Dangerfield had to train really well tomorrow, not because of his hand injury, but due to a lack of form? Surely he is straight back in if fit? He is a best 22 player for christ sakes. Just heard this on 9 news.

I bloody hope so, having his hardness in the side will go a long way to helping the Crows win on Saturday night.

A little off topic, but your sig has an error in it, it should be Adelaide Season Ticket holder for life. Adelaide does not have members.

 

[Wood_Duck]

WW are you losing it? See below, it was only this arvo, surely your memory cant be that bad?

It happens when you close your mind and spend a whole day trying to defend your position when you know you are wrong.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You need to look at the bigger picture, most of us have written off 2010. There is no blame there is only the realisation that we need focus more on development now than we have been in recent seasons.

We can either continue down the pointless path of trying to play into form senior players who are struggling in their final year or use the time to build towards 2011. There is no hatred towards Burton, but just the common understanding that with the season gone we gain nothing by trying to play Burton into form and are only robbing development time away from a player like Walker.

You see it's a pointless path to you ......I however agree with the club's direction and maybe a bit of history of watching good players fall by the wayside tends to sway my thinking of getting the player to iron out bugs now at his most pliable

we're being specific now .....will Walker develop more in the AFL or SANFL .......and that question will have different answers depending on circumstances

IMO the club persevered with Walker for 4 PS games and 4 AFL games when his form didn't really warrant selection .......ultimately the development asked for the club was not happening by playing each week in the AFL

He is now being asked to sort it out b4 he gets back into the team (injuries permitting)

People have two motivations for change .........pain or gain

The pain for Walker is that he suffers the pain and maybe a little indignity of getting his game on the right track b4 being selected ........that to me given the season is a right-off is the right approach .......you obviously disagree

I can quote you so many examples but one I discussed with a friend last night ......is tambling

20 years of age .....married with family ......on a very good wage because Richmond had to burn their salary cap on some young upcoming players ......and he was played every week to develop him
Result is a very comfortable player with enormous talent ....who is lazy, lost that work effort because at AFL level hasn't had to work for a game

Daniel Wells another .....

It's an interesting debate in development philosophies ......I just happen to agree with current club thinking

 

[WaynesWorld19]

That's not quite true. Some would argue that NC's philosophy of playing the best 22 each week lacks vision and consideration of the future, especially when we have a losing side and the season is almost a right off. This philosophy may save the supporters immeditate pain, however it is counter-productive for player development and leadership transitioning. Those sides blooding youngsters are looking to the future have a view that a football education is best learnt at the highest level. Investing in this education now will see you reap rewards earlier.

I think NC's philosophies are geared towards bringing up great people, and not great footballers. There is nothing wrong with this and probably should be commended, however it doesn't translate into premierships.

The thing is we had the team ready to challenge at the end of 2009 ......we had done the player changeover and development, we don't have to go back to square 1

We simply have to get the team back healthy and in form so we can start 2011 with confidence

Players like Davis, Cook, Sloane, Petrenko, Mckernan, Sellar were always going to get games this year ......and again IMO we will have young players ready next season to replace the Goodwin, Edwards, Doughty and Burton

Everyone was relatively happy with development and opportunities kids were getting last season ....it's just panic mode AP by supporters

Everyone is saying Burton and Doughty are easily replaceable now
Goodwin and Edwards are steady contributors ...but no longer game breakers

So lets concentrate on getting back into a winning frame ......that's always the best development environment for young players .......and succession that has already been planned will run its due course

 

[WaynesWorld19]

What he believes is that we're better off playing 7 kids in the team and all of the veterans, expecting those kids to maintain the same high standards as the more senior players around them, than playing 12 kids and having to accept lower standards. He'd rather have 7 kids learning the right lessons, rather than 12 kids learning the wrong lessons.

Many on this board would disagree, regarding any experience as good experience - and hence preferring the 12 kids option.

I don't agree that "any experience is good experience". I think that the kids need to justify their selection. However, I also think that nobody should be gifted games, no matter how senior the player is. .

Vader very well put .......Craig as many great coaches likes to bring kids into a winning environment where they learn from the actions of senior players who stabilize teams with their consistency (usually) and on-field leadership

It's a tried and true approach

This is why Richmond & St Kilda have not had the success that bottoming out and filling the team with kids approach

And b4 anyone mentions St Kilda ........Reiwoldt is now 28, that's 10 years since he was drafted and still no more success than Adelaide who has never bottomed out but taken the approach of slower player introduction into a winning steady environment

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Or far worse prepared if the kids who play develop bad habits (which is what Craig is trying to prevent), or if they have their confidence/egos dented by being played before they're ready.

Swings and roundabouts... It's by no means proven that bottoming out and playing the kids prematurely has any positive benefits at all, let alone that doing so is better than the alternative.

Which is why Walker is being developed the way he is

 

[Crow-mo]

Anymore pretentious than using the term "FSI" over and over again?

ah the roll eyes, your favourite proxy for knowledge or content.

good times

 

[Crow-mo]

- what geelong players said


There you go, backed up.

lol. that was convincing.

Mooney is now their best player.

all in favour, raise your hands