Changes for next year, Round 1

[tropicaltiger]

The no lynch got me

Me too...UNKNOWN Draft pick 2 >>>>>> The great man Lynch.

 

[bebji]

B: Grimes Astbury Broard
HB: Houli Rance Vlastuin
C: Edwards Prestia Pickett
HF: Lambert Lynch Rioli
F: Castagna Riewoldt Bolton
R: Nankervis Cotchin Martin
INT: Soldo Caddy Graham Stack
EMG: Ross Baker Higgins Short CCJ RCD

Can't wait for Rd 1, what a time to be a TIGER!!!

 

[GN272]

Prestia out late/early

 

[Absolut Tigers]

I think Baker will make way for Rance. Broad is a much better one on one player than Baker can play big or small. Short and Houli will be the ball carriers off half back.

It will be interesting to see where they play Stack. I think he will play that half forward/midfield role. Such a talent.

Bottom line is you very rarely have everyone available for selection. Therefore the best 22 is a somewhat hypothetical situation.

 

[Del65166]

I think Baker will make way for Rance. Broad is a much better one on one player than Baker can play big or small. Short and Houli will be the ball carriers off half back.

It will be interesting to see where they play Stack. I think he will play that half forward/midfield role. Such a talent.

Bottom line is you very rarely have everyone available for selection. Therefore the best 22 is a somewhat hypothetical situation.

I think Short is the weakest link in the team now that Ellis has gone. He is a long kick. Rance in for Short might make us too tall. Maybe Short and Broad will be called on depending on match ups. Baker can play forward too. Going to be a lot good players missing out.

 

[Jozzy]

I think Short is the weakest link in the team now that Ellis has gone. He is a long kick. Rance in for Short might make us too tall. Maybe Short and Broad will be called on depending on match ups. Baker can play forward too. Going to be a lot good players missing out.

We’ve played plenty of great football with all four of Rance, Astbury, Grimes and Broad.

We won the 2017 grand final with the four of them playing. We played the majority of 2018 with them when the club finished top.

On paper it’s a lot of height in the one backline but they all offer a lot of flexibility. Grimes has proven he can match it and play on the best small forwards in the competition. Rance will often play as the interceptor and Broad can play a higher up out of defence and offers the the versatility of playing on a midsized player.

Astbury is really our only traditional tall defender, his role is just a vital as anyone in the team. He’s just the only one who’ll solely take an opposition tall.

 

[mopsy]

Wait till next year a full pre season.......
Bolton > Rioli
Stack > George
Edit....but only just

That would likely mean both Bolton and Stack have been pencilled in as fwds.That would be a mistake imo.

Just my opinion but Boltons best position is as a mid and Stacks best position by far is as a defender who should turn into a mid.
Pickett is another top notch h/b but hes rounded enough to play midfield as well.

Atm both Castagna and Rioli project mainly as fwds. Imo if Rioli in particular cannot add to his game and become a good midfield option then he may be in strife down the track.

Castagna is by far our best sml fwd and if he could kick straight (hopefully that can improve) he would be right up there with the best of the small fwds going around.

 

[mopsy]

We’ve played plenty of great football with all four of Rance, Astbury, Grimes and Broad.

We won the 2017 grand final with the four of them playing. We played the majority of 2018 with them when the club finished top.

On paper it’s a lot of height in the one backline but they all offer a lot of flexibility. Grimes has proven he can match it and play on the best small forwards in the competition. Rance will often play as the interceptor and Broad can play a higher up out of defence and offers the the versatility of playing on a midsized player.

Astbury is really our only traditional tall defender, his role is just a vital as anyone in the team. He’s just the only one who’ll solely take an opposition tall.

Spot on Not only have we played with the 4 defenders at 190cm and over but most clubs do as well.
With Rance back we improve out of sight in height size flexability and dont lose a thing when it comes to run. He gives us two genuine kpp size options to play on kpp size opponents. He frees up Grimes and Vlastuin and just makes us a better more flexable back half.

I think there are 5 locks, that is it they get selected no matter what.

Grimes - Astbury - Vlastuin
Houli - Rance - ?????

For me the last spot is up for grabs and i think blokes like stack Pickett and even D-E-S offer a lot more than Broad when it comes to run delivery and rebound.They will defend as well.
Unfortunately for Broady as well as he has performed for us he has been passed by others who just offer more in certain areas imo.

Personally id give the first shot at position 6 at hb to the EGG.With Pickett and Stack being developed in the midfield.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Spot on Not only have we played with the 4 defenders at 190cm and over but most clubs do as well.
With Rance back we improve out of sight in height size flexability and dont lose a thing when it comes to run. He gives us two genuine kpp size options to play on kpp size opponents. He frees up Grimes and Vlastuin and just makes us a better more flexable back half.

I think there are 5 locks, that is it they get selected no matter what.

Grimes - Astbury - Vlastuin
Houli - Rance - ?????

For me the last spot is up for grabs and i think blokes like stack Pickett and even D-E-S offer a lot more than Broad when it comes to run delivery and rebound.They will defend as well.
Unfortunately for Broady as well as he has performed for us he has been passed by others who just offer more in certain areas imo.

Personally id give the first shot at position 6 at hb to the EGG.With Pickett and Stack being developed in the midfield.

I doubt Broad gets dropped. He isn't a 'lock' but he is very valuable to the back line and makes other better. Richmond rarely lose when hes playing either be it correlation or coincidence.

People forget Astbury/Grimes/Rance often got exposed prior to Broad joining the defense

 

[Grrr]

I doubt Broad gets dropped. He isn't a 'lock' but he is very valuable to the back line and makes other better. Richmond rarely lose when hes playing either be it correlation or coincidence.

People forget Astbury/Grimes/Rance often got exposed prior to Broad joining the defense

I'm a bob each way. I think Rance for Broad is a win, but Broad is so versatile and good defensively that it will allow Vlaustin, Rance and Grimes to be more attacking. On the other hand a player like Stack at HB, even if just for another year before he transforms further up the ground offers so much more offensively whilst still being good defensively (although he is not 193cm like Broad).
Might leave it to the coaching committee.

 

[Marcel Proust]

I'm a bob each way. I think Rance for Broad is a win, but Broad is so versatile and good defensively that it will allow Vlaustin, Rance and Grimes to be more attacking. On the other hand a player like Stack at HB, even if just for another year before he transforms further up the ground offers so much more offensively whilst still being good defensively (although he is not 193cm like Broad).
Might leave it to the coaching committee.

I too am undecided on the Broad issue. I can see the argument for a Stack, Balta, DES as alluded to above.

However Broad was part of the backline that held the giants to 3 goals and their lowest score ever and was in two premierships now. Proabley needs to be given the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise? Even if it looks a bit top heavy

I love Baker but Broad in the backline looks a more solid piece than Short or baker

we pretty much have 6 defenders and one of the bench (Short/Baker seemed to rotate a fair bit last couple games) so you can have Stack and Broad, or Baker and Broad depending on where and if Stack goes in the team

 

[Grrr]

I too am undecided on the Broad issue. I can see the argument for a Stack, Balta, DES as alluded to above.

However Broad was part of the backline that held the giants to 3 goals and their lowest score ever and was in two premierships now. Proabley needs to be given the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise? Even if it looks a bit top heavy

I love Baker but Broad in the backline looks a more solid piece than Short or baker

we pretty much have 6 defenders and one of the bench (Short/Baker seemed to rotate a fair bit last couple games) so you can have Stack and Broad, or Baker and Broad depending on where and if Stack goes in the team

We'll see how it plays out. Don't discount Baker, first year ever as a backman and he played some very good football. That little bloke who mops up and distributes is under rated. Better player than Short.

 

[mopsy]

I doubt Broad gets dropped. He isn't a 'lock' but he is very valuable to the back line and makes other better. Richmond rarely lose when hes playing either be it correlation or coincidence.

People forget Astbury/Grimes/Rance often got exposed prior to Broad joining the defense

Often got exposed?? We lost 6 games this yr by 33 points or more when the injuries were kicking in. Broad played in all bar one. The common missing link was Rance.

How do you correlate kpps with a running tall like Broad.
On the few occasions our big talls have been exposed as you put it over the last three yrs it had absolutely nothing to with Broad being there or not.
Broad wasnt going to play on a bloke like Cox or Jenkins or Walker or Ben Brown He was more likely to play on someone like DeGoey or Wood both who have had good days against us.

In 2017 we had 14 or more goals kicked against us on just 4 occasions. Back half often exposed i dont think so
In 2018 we had 14 or more goals kicked against us on just 5 occasions. back half OFTEN exposed.I dont think so.
In 2019 we had 14 or more goals kicked against us on 7 occasions when half the team was missing in the first half of the yr and Broad played in most of those games.

With Rance back Broads role changes, the question we have to ask is Can Broad provide better run and carry and delivery than blokes like DES, Pickett, and Stack.

If Broad was to stay then just perhaps its Houlis spot that comes under the spotlight but as an A/A that is not going to happen.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Often got exposed?? We lost 6 games this yr by 33 points or more when the injuries were kicking in. Broad played in all bar one. The common missing link was Rance.

How do you correlate kpps with a running tall like Broad.
On the few occasions our big talls have been exposed as you put it over the last three yrs it had absolutely nothing to with Broad being there or not.
Broad wasnt going to play on a bloke like Cox or Jenkins or Walker or Ben Brown He was more likely to play on someone like DeGoey or Wood both who have had good days against us.

In 2017 we had 14 or more goals kicked against us on just 4 occasions. Back half often exposed i dont think so
In 2018 we had 14 or more goals kicked against us on just 5 occasions. back half OFTEN exposed.I dont think so.
In 2019 we had 14 or more goals kicked against us on 7 occasions when half the team was missing in the first half of the yr and Broad played in most of those games.

With Rance back Broads role changes, the question we have to ask is Can Broad provide better run and carry and delivery than blokes like DES, Pickett, and Stack.

If Broad was to stay then just perhaps its Houlis spot that comes under the spotlight but as an A/A that is not going to happen.

The losing game this season Broad didnt play in; Geelong win 104 - 37... poor Garthwaite

Broad has a few shockers Cameron, McNaughton, Cox come to mind however

in the '17 premiership season Richmond lost 6 games, in the middle of the season... Broad came in round 17 and Richmond won 9/10 including the grand final only dropping the Geelong away game with some dodgy jobs by the umpires. "correlation does not imply causation" but from the eye test Broad seemed to make things a bit more solid for the more famous defenders.

Broad has also been playing a lot of game time (often 90%0+ iirc) for the team that has won 12 games in a row and the grand final (again) this season


Round 15 Sun 30 Jun 1:10pm Saints Marvel Stadium 40962 Win 103-70
Round 16 Sat 6 Jul 2:10pm Suns Metricon Stadium 16031 Win 150-58
Round 17 Sun 14 Jul 1:10pm Giants MCG 38986 Win 94-67
Round 18 Sat 20 Jul 1:45pm Power MCG 41642 Win 101-63
Round 19 Fri 26 Jul 7:50pm Magpies MCG 78722 Win 98-66
Round 20 Sat 3 Aug 7:25pm Demons MCG 37254 Win 93-60
Round 21 Sun 11 Aug 3:20pm Blues MCG 51039 Win 73-45
Round 22 Sun 18 Aug 1:10pm Eagles MCG 57415 Win 88-82
Round 23 Sun 25 Aug 3:20pm Lions MCG 76995 Win 82-55
Qualifying Final Sat 7 Sep 7:25pm Lions Gabba 37478 Win 112-65
Preliminary Final Fri 20 Sep 7:50pm Cats MCG 94423 Win 85-66
Grand Final Sat 28 Sep 2:30pm Giants MCG 100014 Win 114-25


I would think twice about mucking around with the backline too much. better run and carry and delivery is good but actually defending is good too - just ask the giants.

Maybe Rance will become a more attacking player? as people have theorized recently. Vlastuin too may be given more rope. Broad is too limited to be that guy

 

[mopsy]

The losing game this season Broad didnt play in; Geelong win 104 - 37... poor Garthwaite

Broad has a few shockers Cameron, McNaughton, Cox come to mind however

in the '17 premiership season Richmond lost 6 games, in the middle of the season... Broad came in round 17 and Richmond won 9/10 including the grand final only dropping the Geelong away game with some dodgy jobs by the umpires. "correlation does not imply causation" but from the eye test Broad seemed to make things a bit more solid for the more famous defenders.

Broad has also been playing a lot of game time (often 90%0+ iirc) for the team that has won 12 games in a row and the grand final (again) this season


Round 15 Sun 30 Jun 1:10pm Saints Marvel Stadium 40962 Win 103-70
Round 16 Sat 6 Jul 2:10pm Suns Metricon Stadium 16031 Win 150-58
Round 17 Sun 14 Jul 1:10pm Giants MCG 38986 Win 94-67
Round 18 Sat 20 Jul 1:45pm Power MCG 41642 Win 101-63
Round 19 Fri 26 Jul 7:50pm Magpies MCG 78722 Win 98-66
Round 20 Sat 3 Aug 7:25pm Demons MCG 37254 Win 93-60
Round 21 Sun 11 Aug 3:20pm Blues MCG 51039 Win 73-45
Round 22 Sun 18 Aug 1:10pm Eagles MCG 57415 Win 88-82
Round 23 Sun 25 Aug 3:20pm Lions MCG 76995 Win 82-55
Qualifying Final Sat 7 Sep 7:25pm Lions Gabba 37478 Win 112-65
Preliminary Final Fri 20 Sep 7:50pm Cats MCG 94423 Win 85-66
Grand Final Sat 28 Sep 2:30pm Giants MCG 100014 Win 114-25


I would think twice about mucking around with the backline too much. better run and carry and delivery is good but actually defending is good too - just ask the giants.

Maybe Rance will become a more attacking player? as people have theorized recently. Vlastuin too may be given more rope. Broad is too limited to be that guy

IN 17 We lost 7 games 5 of them by 14 points and under and in those 5 games the most goals we conceded was 12 and that happened once thats hardly being exposed in fact it was on par with what we did for the rest of the yr.

In 17 we had two howlers rnd 6 against Adelaide where just about everyone was crap
and in rnd 16 where we just didnt turn up were we exposed in those games or we just poor.Two really poor games for the yr is hardly being exposed.

The most we have been exposed at any time down back was this yr where we had numerous injuries and no Rance.It was injuries and nothing to do with broad in the team or not.When we got most playersd back what happened we went on a roll

Rance wont become an attacking player he already is !!!!!that is the beauty of him he does it all.He goes at about 17 disposals a game he is a dominant spoiler and is right up there in the league for spoils and intercepts. He is on a par with Houli and Short whose sole roles are basically rebound and delivery.
You could play him in their roles and he would be a better option.

We have the tall spots covered Rance Astbury and Grimes all play in front of Broad that must be a given.Houli provides run and rebound and Vlastuin does it all mainly with his reading of the play he can and does play bigger than he is.What left and needed is run pace carry good decision making and delivery.

There is others in front of him when it comes to this. There is also the dilemma of playing deserving younger blokes who are in front of him for the role in the roles they are best at or risk losing them if we dont give em a go.

If we dont keep on evolving we will fail and get gobbled up by a hungry chasing pack.Broady is a 11 disposal less than two tackle two rebonds a game defender who defends well.
Along with Short he is the weakest link down back with Rance back in the team. We should be continually looking for better than limited role player types.

Your grasping at straws if you think Broads role in the team has meant we dont have the odd bad game or we dont get exposed on the odd occasion.

Simply put Rance is a miles better player and unless Broad can become a rebounding type down back his position in the team is in jeopardy and rightly so.
As is Shorts and Bakers imo.

 

[Rubber Hips]

My favorite story is of one of young jack dyers first training sessions at Richmond
Coach,, checker Hughes gave jack a 30 minute session one on one
With the legendary Joe Murdoch the hardest ,toughest and meanest
Defender at punt rd,,poor ole Jacky never touched the ball didn't even
Look like touching it,, Joe litterally gave him a hiding,,,,
Young jack trudged off the ground thinking his vfl career was over jack apologized
" sorry Mr Hughes I let you down i wasted your time "
Checker replied as he put his arm around a young desolate dyer
" that's alight son,, Joe is the meanest toughest defender in the league
He defeats the best forwards in the land,,,I didn't expect you to touch
The ball ,, I just wanted to see if you had the courage to keep trying
And to see how determined you are,, ,it's ok son welcome to tigerland "
Jack states " from that day on I never looked back "

Jack









Jack Dyer that is

 

[Charlie Pannam]

Rance and Stack walk up starts next year.

Expect Ross to be pushing best 22 and play a lot of games.

Other 1-3 year players - CJ,Egg,Naish,RCD,Balta- will get opportunities throughout the year.

 

[Perks]

By finals:

FB: Grimes, Astbury, Vlastuin
HB: Houli, Rance, Stack
C: Caddy, Cotchin, Bolton
HF: Edwards, Riewoldt, Lambert
FF: Rioli, Lynch, Castagna
R: Soldo, Prestia, Martin
I: Pickett, Ross, Coleman-Jones, Baker

 

[Walt Kowalski]

You are right, and wrong! You are correct about the rucks and extra tall forward I think, this is a good help to the backline, or seems to be. You are incorrect in saying I forget about this....I mentioned this very issue in a subsequent post later on in the thread. It is obvious the backline at any given time is not the sole determinant of the opposition team’s score and the rest of the team plays a key role in overall defensive effectiveness as well.

Nevertheless, my point stands, the backline/team has proven it could function at a very high level with Rance missing, at least when all other backmen were available. This brings to my mind something that was not previously imaginable, that Rance could be tradeable. I stick to my previously argued points, the deal would need to be very enticing, as in you would only do it to get someone like Ben King or a young player on that type of level to the club, Rance would need to find it appealing(perhaps unlikely but I would in his shoes) and I would add you also would need extra tall defensive cover to be traded in, Keefe, Casboult, someone of that ilk. As I have posted before the deal is highly unlikely. There are reasons the club needs to start thinking along these lines though...

Why use the ellipsis at the end of the post. Finish your thought.

What are the "reasons the club needs to start thinking along these lines"? Those "lines" being trading out the best full back of the decade when we can realistically contend for premiership for at least the next three seasons, smack bang in the middle of our window?

They'd wanna be ****ing good reasons.

 

[Meteoric Rise]

Why use the ellipsis at the end of the post. Finish your thought.

What are the "reasons the club needs to start thinking along these lines"? Those "lines" being trading out the best full back of the decade when we can realistically contend for premiership for at least the next three seasons, smack bang in the middle of our window?

They'd wanna be ******* good reasons.

If you read my posts earlier in the thread I covered the matter fully. But it is obvious within 3 years or so the club loses most of its elite leaders to retirements or loss of elite capability and with each passing year they have less currency in the markets. I am not one who believes so much in window theory where you try to do everything before the retirements and who cares about what happens after that. I wrote in another thread that before we won in 2019, the last three premiers, including us in 2017 were not widely thought to be contenders either at the beginning of their respective seasons, or the preceding season. So much for window theory.

Anyway, I think that Ben King is a hell of a talent and if there was any possible way of bringing a guy like that in without destroying the fabric of your club/team I would be exploring it. I am not on any sort of crusade to get rid of Rance for the sake of it, was just trying to think of ways to facilitate bringing in a player who looks astonishingly good because I don’t think he would be costing us premierships if we did. We did after all demonstrate we could win it without Rance in 2019, and I must admit, I did not think that was an available outcome when we lost him. In any event, my suggestion probably relied upon several things that needed to line up, King wanting to come, Rance wanting to go, Suns being amenable, and the answer is probably no on all counts.

 

[Vassp]

D

That would likely mean both Bolton and Stack have been pencilled in as fwds.That would be a mistake imo.

Just my opinion but Boltons best position is as a mid and Stacks best position by far is as a defender who should turn into a mid.
Pickett is another top notch h/b but hes rounded enough to play midfield as well.

Atm both Castagna and Rioli project mainly as fwds. Imo if Rioli in particular cannot add to his game and become a good midfield option then he may be in strife down the track.

Castagna is by far our best sml fwd and if he could kick straight (hopefully that can improve) he would be right up there with the best of the small fwds going around.

Do you know why I made my post?
If we want to win the flag next year then we have to improve.

Because my options can hurt on the score board and can also tackle, give stack a full preseason and same with Bolton and omg they’re going to be punishing. Mix that up with lynch, Riewoldt, Martin and George/Rioli (can’t see them both playing at the same time next year unless they improve.

 

[mopsy]

D

Do you know why I made my post?
If we want to win the flag next year then we have to improve.

Because my options can hurt on the score board and can also tackle, give stack a full preseason and same with Bolton and omg they’re going to be punishing. Mix that up with lynch, Riewoldt, Martin and George/Rioli (can’t see them both playing at the same time next year unless they improve.

As i said playing Bolton and Stack fwd would be a mistake. Especially when we have a gazillion options there.
Play em to their strengths and develop them in roles where they will give best value.

 

[mopsy]

Rance and Stack walk up starts next year.

Expect Ross to be pushing best 22 and play a lot of games.

Other 1-3 year players - CJ,Egg,Naish,RCD,Balta- will get opportunities throughout the year.

I think all of Ross Stack Balta Bolton Pickett Graham and of course Rance will be regulars. There are going to be some noses out of joint.I also think Players like DES and CCJ are ready for games and one hopes R-C-D pushes his way in as well.
Only Pickett and Bolton played in the g/f.

There really should be some very hard decisions being made next yr and i reckon those mentioned actually project fwd as better players than many who are regulars.

Even a player of Houlis standing could be in the gun if form drops away at age 32. Baker Broad Short Caddy one of the ruckmen Rioli all imo should not be guaranteed a game.

 

[mopsy]

perhaps, but I wish Broad would get more of it, although he isn't that good with it. Adding Stack and Rance for Broad and Short would be a bigger win I think.

In anyones language that is a massive win.
No one actually talks about the elephant in the room as well.

Houli, he is 32 and it would have solved a lot of problems if he retired with another medal around his neck.
I know he has been great the last few yrs but when do you say sorry mate i know your playing great footy still but you are stopping the development of players who we are fairly certain will be around for the long term.

Im asking is Houli indispensable?traditionally h/b and the role he does has been a place to develop younger players.

We do need to be careful in not stifling a lot of the younger players we have, who have done a solid apprenticeship, look like they will flourish at the top level but we cant/wont give em a game.

For the first time since the 70,s we have a crop of kids who we can say with certainty will go on and become very good players for us.
A few of them we need to develop fairly quickly as well if we dont want sudden gaping holes in the team as players start to enter the 30 yo plus range.

Imo as soon as RCD is ready we need to get as many games as possible into him. Jack Ross is another he has already shown he is good enough and ready to go they are bigger bodies in the midfield and we dont have a hell of a lot of em.

Rance and JR are both now in their 30's and Astbury is waht 29?in all seriousness who is coming thru who is likely no certain to make the levelthese blokes are not going to be there forever and we need to start getting games into their replacements wherever possible.

The club has been playing Balta back. Now in not going to argue where he should play because we just go around in circles. So the CLUB is developing him in the back half probably with the aim to ultimately replace the aging Rance.

We all talk about Rance replacing Broad, just maybe we should be talking about Balta replacing Broad with an eye on him ultimately replacing Rance.Getting much needed games into him as we go.
Its folly not to put games into these kids and then just expect them to step up when the stalwarts retire.

The question im asking is, Where are the holes not now but where are they going to be in 2 or three yrs time.Some of these kids we need to get to 50 80 games BEFORE the Rances and Riewoldts of the world retire.To me that makes for sustained success and smooth transition from one generation of players to the next.

 

[Charlie Pannam]

I think all of Ross Stack Balta Bolton Pickett Graham and of course Rance will be regulars. There are going to be some noses out of joint.I also think Players like DES and CCJ are ready for games and one hopes R-C-D pushes his way in as well.
Only Pickett and Bolton played in the g/f.

There really should be some very hard decisions being made next yr and i reckon those mentioned actually project fwd as better players than many who are regulars.

Even a player of Houlis standing could be in the gun if form drops away at age 32. Baker Broad Short Caddy one of the ruckmen Rioli all imo should not be guaranteed a game.

As good as we’ve been still think midfield depth is an area we can improve. If Ross,Pickett and eventually RCD become regulars rotating through the midfield it will allow us the luxury of playing guns like Sheds and Lambert on the wings.