Changes for the Eagles

[crowman86]

There is no -way known Walker will be recalled anytime soon .........he had his re-call opportunity and failed

He'll now do penance ........IMO he won't play AFL again this year and will have the PS to really bust a gut to go to that next level he is capable of

In: Mackay and Dangerfield

Out: Symes and Douglas

Really expect Sloane to get another game and Symes was poor and Douglas MEH!

People really need to get off the whipping boys. I was getting fed up with the amount of critisim Symes recives on this board. I went back and made notes about each possession Symes got on the weekend. Symes was NOT poor on the weekend. Made 2 skill errors which people seem to cling onto(1 missed set shot, and got caught trying to break a tackle coming out of the defensive 50). Not once made an error which resulted in a turnover and oppostion goal. People seem to forget the good things he does including being involved in 4 goals. 3rd most long kicks in the team behind Dogga and Macca and was in the lower half of the team for skill errors. People really need to take their blinkers off and watch the game with open eyes.

 

[XztatiK]

People really need to get off the whipping boys. I was getting fed up with the amount of critisim Symes recives on this board. I went back and made notes about each possession Symes got on the weekend. Symes was NOT poor on the weekend. Made 2 skill errors which people seem to cling onto(1 missed set shot, and got caught trying to break a tackle coming out of the defensive 50). Not once made an error which resulted in a turnover and oppostion goal. People seem to forget the good things he does including being involved in 4 goals. 3rd most long kicks in the team behind Dogga and Macca and was in the lower half of the team for skill errors. People really need to take their blinkers off and watch the game with open eyes.

Completely agree. I thought his aggressiveness when he had the ball was great - he was the only one running with it in that 1st quarter. The week before that (collingwood) he was one of our best.

I'd honestly leave Danger and D-Mac out another week until they're 100%. Although if I had to bring one in it would be for Shirley, simply for the fact that no one in WCE's midfield is really worth a hard tag. He did some really courageous things vs. the Hawks but didn't get enough of the footy. Bring him back for Judd.

Douglas made some horrible skill errors last week but got a lot of the ball and looked dangerous, if he had made the most of his shots at goal it would've been a very nice overall game from him. I don't think he'll be there in September but worth sticking with this week.

 

[thebirdman 24]

People really need to get off the whipping boys. I was getting fed up with the amount of critisim Symes recives on this board. I went back and made notes about each possession Symes got on the weekend. Symes was NOT poor on the weekend. Made 2 skill errors which people seem to cling onto(1 missed set shot, and got caught trying to break a tackle coming out of the defensive 50). Not once made an error which resulted in a turnover and oppostion goal. People seem to forget the good things he does including being involved in 4 goals. 3rd most long kicks in the team behind Dogga and Macca and was in the lower half of the team for skill errors. People really need to take their blinkers off and watch the game with open eyes.

But did you take into account his poor kicking into the 50 which resulted in opposition running it away easy? He has to know his limitations and not be the one to be kicking into the forward 50. Symes defenders say his kicking wasn't bad in the Collingwood game, yes thats true, but its pretty easy when your opponents know that is your weakness and they are all backwards/sideways kicks, hardly damaging.

He got dropped a couple of weeks ago and if not for injury would still be in the SANFL. He is at best a depth player, only in the team at the moment due to injuries.

It has been suggested he could do a tagging role, but i don't think he has the athletic attributes to do so or the close checking skills like Shirls. This may be because of his stint with the PAFC where defensive pressure isn't high on the agenda.

When Mackay, Dangerfield and Burton (we went into the hawks game smaller), the outs would be in order: Sloane, Douglas, Symes.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

People really need to get off the whipping boys. I was getting fed up with the amount of critisim Symes recives on this board. I went back and made notes about each possession Symes got on the weekend. Symes was NOT poor on the weekend. Made 2 skill errors which people seem to cling onto(1 missed set shot, and got caught trying to break a tackle coming out of the defensive 50). Not once made an error which resulted in a turnover and oppostion goal. People seem to forget the good things he does including being involved in 4 goals. 3rd most long kicks in the team behind Dogga and Macca and was in the lower half of the team for skill errors. People really need to take their blinkers off and watch the game with open eyes.

No no no ...... Symes was definately the week link on the weekend, and I have been a supporter of his

It's amazing how different the game is "live" compared to the narrower vision of television ........distance perspective is lost on TV

I counted 4 goals that he impacted .....2 for us and 2 for Hawthorn from turnovers he was involved in.

His kicking lacked not only depth but are very slow to reaching targets .....and that's a no no when delivering to forwds.

Yes he was on the bottom of packs per usual and throwing himself into every contested situation ........but on the offensive rebound he was costly

Got pinged a couple of times holding the ball when we were on the charge ......

He's a great depth player but IMO someone like sloane who is as tough BUT has more pace and better footskills is the preferred option

 

[crowman86]

Guys give me a break.

Symes Disposals

1st Quarter
6:25 Quick handball in a chain of handballs in the center clearance hits Radar right on chest
6:15 Kick from 45 out running into goal, looks like he passed instead of kicking for goal, got touched on the line
4:25 Kick deep into forward 50, hit porps on the chest which he dropped. Leads to ball up inside 50.
2:30 Kick to knights on the chest in the back 50 switching play, perfect kick.
00:01 Handball on the siren in pressure to a contest.

2nd Quarter
18:40 Kick out of defensive 50 after a bounce onto mid wing, straight to Stevens which leads to him getting a free.
**17:10 Symes good mark in front, but missed the kick for goal
15:05 Quick kick out of contest under pressure on defensive 50, Douglas drops the reasonably easy mark mid wing.
9:50 Quick hands under pressure hits macca on the chest after receiving from behind his body. Results in macca almost hitting tippy on the chest
**5:30 Receives handball from Maric, tackled tried to get the handball off but good tackle 50/50 holding the ball decision
3:40 Kicks for goal outside 50. touched on the line, nothing wrong with the kick
2:22 Gets tackled as he receives the ball from a ruck tap, no prior but gets a free kick paid against. Horrible decision.

3rd Quarter
15:55 Intercepts a hawks kick and marks in the middle of the ground, good kick to porps leading out of the 50.
14:38 Marks in back 50, switches play across ground. hits Goodwin perfectly
14:12 Pick up of the ground under pressure, and quick give is perfect to macca
11:50 Good gather from contest in back 50, and quick give to vince hits him on the chest
10:30 Handball receive from porps, quick snap at goal which falls short in Trents hands who takes a mark and kicks a goal.
8:02 Left foot kick under pressure after handball receive from porps. Deep entry into forward 50 to Knights, not a punchy kick but went straight to target off his wrong side. Leads to boundary throw in. From which after a tommo snap, Trent kicks another goal
4:28 Receives a kick coming outta defensive 50 and 20 meter handball under pressure down the line hits Edwards perfectly

4th Quarter
14:10 Runs onto ball kicked over his head by Edwards and then delivers 25 metre kick to Douglas on the forward 50 hits him on chest. Douglas kicks a point.
12:40 Receives handball at his knees from Macca then handballs on to douglas in the middle of the ground, then points and directs him where to kick it, Knights on the chest loose the 50 who kicks a goal
9:50 Handball back to stevens after winning it from boundary throw in 35 out from Hawthorns goal, leads to us getting it back out of the 50.


Makes 2 mistakes (in bold). One missing a goal from a set shot. Could have converted either of the 2 other shots from 50 he missed, 50/50 shots at best. Got caught holding the ball once which was a dodgy decision. I have included the time clock at each point.

Looking at all those its pretty clear he did not play poorly. There are several instances where other players including Macca who DIRECTLY turned the ball over which resulted in a goal. Take of your freaking glasses or put them on, which ever helps and try and watch the game properly.

Ill agree Symes is not the best user of the ball at times, far from it, however he DID NOT play poorly against the Hawks.

 

[Vader]

I think you're being generous with your assessment of his shot on goal at 6:15 in the first quarter - but you do make a valid point.

I'm one of those here who are quite critical of his kicking and my first impressions from watching the game were that he stank it up early, before improving. You've convinced me that I might just be suffering from pre-conceptions and not giving him a fair go.

 

[J-Train]

Completely agree. I thought his aggressiveness when he had the ball was great - he was the only one running with it in that 1st quarter. The week before that (collingwood) he was one of our best.

I'd honestly leave Danger and D-Mac out another week until they're 100%. Although if I had to bring one in it would be for Shirley, simply for the fact that no one in WCE's midfield is really worth a hard tag. He did some really courageous things vs. the Hawks but didn't get enough of the footy. Bring him back for Judd.

Douglas made some horrible skill errors last week but got a lot of the ball and looked dangerous, if he had made the most of his shots at goal it would've been a very nice overall game from him. I don't think he'll be there in September but worth sticking with this week.

Shirls' 150th this week. Surely he won't be dropped. Be good to see him rack up the milestone in front of a home crowd.

 

[Mismatched]

I think you're being generous with your assessment of his shot on goal at 6:15 in the first quarter - but you do make a valid point.

I'm one of those here who are quite critical of his kicking and my first impressions from watching the game were that he stank it up early, before improving. You've convinced me that I might just be suffering from pre-conceptions and not giving him a fair go.

Agreed, to me certainly looked like a legitimate shot on goal, otherwise it was an extremely poor pass, hence should certainly come under a mistake as from the position he was in, a goal should be an almost certain outcome for an AFL footballer.

 

[beartoo]

But did you take into account his poor kicking into the 50 which resulted in opposition running it away easy? He has to know his limitations and not be the one to be kicking into the forward 50. Symes defenders say his kicking wasn't bad in the Collingwood game, yes thats true, but its pretty easy when your opponents know that is your weakness and they are all backwards/sideways kicks, hardly damaging./QUOTE]

This utter nonsense has been repeated by a number of posters. I just watched the replay and there is not one instance of Symes kicking the ball into the 50 only to kick poorly and have the ball swept away by the defence. Not one. People invent things to support their contentions about players being dropped. Yeah, Symes missed 3 getable goals and his set shot should have been a gimme, but his field kicking on Friday night was bloody good. His disposal efficiency was 79%. Piss poor, hey? 19 disposals, 5 marks, 5 tackles and a number of kamikaze acts as usual--get rid of him he's useless.
He made a centimetre perfect pass to Porps close to goal and Porps spilled the mark. Blame the kicker?
He played a good game. Hard at it as always. 5 tackles and some good body work in support of others in close.
Find another whipping boy, it is getting very old constantly reading posts bagging Symes, Douglas, Shirley, Stevens, Sellar. Any or all of these good footballers apart from Stevens may be dropped as others--Mackay, Danger, Burton, Bock, come back into the side. It will not be because they are poor, useless hacks who should be delisted/traded asap.
I'm glad Symes is on our list and not someone else's.He is a good footballer and the only thing he lacks at present is penetration in his kicking. He's still a kid and this may well come. Potentially Symes could be a 150-200 gamer for the Crows, just like Shirley who so many also get off on hating.

 

[thebirdman 24]

But did you take into account his poor kicking into the 50 which resulted in opposition running it away easy? He has to know his limitations and not be the one to be kicking into the forward 50. Symes defenders say his kicking wasn't bad in the Collingwood game, yes thats true, but its pretty easy when your opponents know that is your weakness and they are all backwards/sideways kicks, hardly damaging./QUOTE]

Find another whipping boy, it is getting very old constantly reading posts bagging Symes, Douglas, Shirley, Stevens, Sellar. Any or all of these good footballers apart from Stevens may be dropped as others--Mackay, Danger, Burton, Bock, come back into the side. It will not be because they are poor, useless hacks who should be delisted/traded asap.
I'm glad Symes is on our list and not someone else's.He is a good footballer and the only thing he lacks at present is penetration in his kicking. He's still a kid and this may well come. Potentially Symes could be a 150-200 gamer for the Crows, just like Shirley who so many also get off on hating.

I'm not saying their a poor footballer, obviously the crows thought he was ok and hence traded for him. I'm saying that he has a deficiency in his game that will result in him getting dropped for better players such as Mackay and Danger. If and when Symes fixes his kicking issues, which i don't think can happen after so long of having a poor kick, he could play as many games for us as you say.

Shirley on the other hand is a capable tagger and will not get dropped because of settling the team for finals and he is needed. However, his 6 touches against 19 of Hodges suggest he was beaten comfortably last week.

 

[WALL-e]

He made a centimetre perfect pass to Porps close to goal and Porps spilled the mark. Blame the kicker?

While the pass hit Porps on the chest, that was a horrid wobbler lol.

I'm a Symes fan, but he needs to spend work on his action next year so it has less height on it.

whether it be holding out on the follow through for a sec, a drop further infront, or lean over the ball more idk, but it has to have more drive to it.

Also not sure why he didn't unload for goal that time?..... caught in two minds probably.

Symes wasn't worst on Sat.

 

[beartoo]

Yeah, okay, you make some good points, Birdman. But it was this that I took exception to:

But did you take into account his poor kicking into the 50 which resulted in opposition running it away easy?\

That simply didn't happen. And my post, while it replied to yours was not simply a dig at you. There have been a number of people saying the same thing.

 

[Jars458]

Symes played a good game. Sure a couple of shots didnt' make the distance but same can be said about Thompson a couple of weeks earlier and noone was saying he should be dropped.

Symes will hold his spot easily.

If Mackay and Danger are both fit in my view then Douglas and Sloane to miss.

 

[beartoo]

While the pass hit Porps on the chest, that was a horrid wobbler lol.

whether it be holding out on the follow through for a sec, a drop further infront, or lean over the ball more idk, but it has to have more drive to it.

Symes wasn't worst on Sat.

I wasn't at the ground, so maybe it looked different. On telly it looked a flat and low pass to the position Porps was running to. Very low, but that's no bad thing to a leading forward.
Agree about his kicking action. I guess the coaching staff are working on it with him.

 

[Wood_Duck]

You're probably right re Walker, though I'd love him to get one last chance now Burton is still out.

Notwithstanding that, i feel we need an extra tall to ensure an injury during the game doesn't rob us of tall forwards (ie Hentschel needed back, Tippett held...we could be rendered impotent in a hurry now that Stevens already in Bock's spot).

If Walker blacklisted then bring Davis in for one prior to Burton's return (for Sloane). Like your other changes.

Wlaker has not been blacklisted. NC was keen to pick him again against Hawthorn as he really wanted to give Walker a chance to redeem himself from the week before. In the end he couldnt as there were others whose performances warranted being picked.

If Walker does not play for the rest of 09 it wont be because he has been blacklisted. NC wants to play him.

 

[Sekaj]

Is it really possible for Symes to improve his kicking (i.e. add more penetration) at this stage in his career?

 

[TheLeftFist8]

Wlaker has not been blacklisted. NC was keen to pick him again against Hawthorn as he really wanted to give Walker a chance to redeem himself from the week before. In the end he couldnt as there were others whose performances warranted being picked.

If Walker does not play for the rest of 09 it wont be because he has been blacklisted. NC wants to play him.

From the snippets i heard, i didn't gather NC wanted to pick him but i've obviously not heard everything...i hope you're right and i hope he gets picked this week (now that Burton is still out)

 

[beartoo]

He's 23, which makes it more difficult than if he was an 18 yo. I have read opinions on here that say it isn't possible. I think it should be if the will is there and the practice undertaken. Anyone with a sport's science background that can comment?
Neil?

 

[WALL-e]

Is it really possible for Symes to improve his kicking (i.e. add more penetration) at this stage in his career?

Yeah, an hour a day every day in the offseason should do it.

Hard thing to change, only through repetition.

 

[thebirdman 24]

Yeah, okay, you make some good points, Birdman. But it was this that I took exception to:

But did you take into account his poor kicking into the 50 which resulted in opposition running it away easy?\

That simply didn't happen. And my post, while it replied to yours was not simply a dig at you. There have been a number of people saying the same thing.

I recognise where your points are coming from, but from my perspective, i haven't yet rewatched the game, Symes had a few kicks that were difficult to tell if they were passes or shots on goal, but nethertheless he couldn't kick it 50 metres. He puts a lot of height on the ball when he kicks it. I think he could be more valuable to us in the centre getting the hard ball, possibly doing a tagging role, playing a bit of a linkman, but not playing forward of the 50 being our kicker into the 50 as he so often was.

EDIT: Good analysis by the way, i might need to have a look at the replay.

 

[crowman86]

But did you take into account his poor kicking into the 50 which resulted in opposition running it away easy?

Not one single occasion did this happen on the weekend. Not one.

It has been suggested he could do a tagging role, but i don't think he has the athletic attributes to do so or the close checking skills like Shirls. This may be because of his stint with the PAFC where defensive pressure isn't high on the agenda.

He runs harder than a lot of players on our list. As some people have said, he is a uphill skier, always fighting hard, even in the worst of situations. To say he might lack 'defensive pressure' because he was on Ports list is laughable. He is one of the most fierce tacklers/defensive pressure players in close.

No no no ...... Symes was definately the week link on the weekend, and I have been a supporter of his

It's amazing how different the game is "live" compared to the narrower vision of television ........distance perspective is lost on TV

Gimme a break, I go to every single home game and always make sure I take close notice of how he goes about his game.

I counted 4 goals that he impacted .....2 for us and 2 for Hawthorn from turnovers he was involved in.

Watch the replay again, or learn to count.

Got pinged a couple of times holding the ball when we were on the charge ......

Got caught once from a ruck tap with no prior, horrible decision. Other time got caught trying to run out of defensive 50, got the handball away but still called for holding the ball. Also a pretty bad decision. Are you going to give Shirls a blast for getting called holding the ball on the wing?? Didn't think so.


I wrote that list of possessions he had to try and open the eyes of some people on this board. He is being harshly treated. Only really made 1 skill error. Missed one set shot which he should have kicked but hey, everyone misses set shots, Fev missed one from a similar but better angle/distance to win the game. It happens to the best of people. He also missed the shot running just outside the 50, it got touched on the line. At least it was straight, its easily a forgivable miss, Tommo has missed a few like that in recent weeks. The other shot, hard to tell if it was a pass or attempt but none the less it also was tocuhed just on the line.

Not trying to say he is the ultimate footballer or anything like that, just trying to open your eyes a bit. At the moment he is proably somewhere between 20-26th on our list. However if he can improve his kicking there is no reason he can't be one of our first picked every week.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Watch the replay again, or learn to count.

Got caught once from a ruck tap with no prior, horrible decision. Other time got caught trying to run out of defensive 50, got the handball away but still called for holding the ball. Also a pretty bad decision. Are you going to give Shirls a blast for getting called holding the ball on the wing?? Didn't think so.


Not trying to say he is the ultimate footballer or anything like that, just trying to open your eyes a bit. At the moment he is proably somewhere between 20-26th on our list. However if he can improve his kicking there is no reason he can't be one of our first picked every week.

C'mon ........don't think anyone is disagreeing that he is somewhere between 20 - 26 on our list ....that said and given what YOU have just said surely you would rate Mackay and Dangerfield ahead of Symes ......hence why I had him as a dropping this week.

The bone of contention is Sloane versus Symes this week IMO ......now I have sloane as having the bigger up-side than Symes, but Symes obviously the much better player ATS of his career.

I just think that on balance Sloanes performance warrants another game and Symes game was poor......that's not a witch hunt cause as I said I have been a supporter of his.

BTW I think you justified my call of a couple of holding the balls......irrespective of whether you think the call was correct or not ........unless 1 + 1 doesn't equal 2

 

[Symesy15]

Thank you Crowman86 - I would add to the argument but you're doing a great job Plus, people probably wouldn't take my arguments seriously based on my username

 

[beartoo]

I'll no doubt get some flak for this thought, but........given what Danger was giving us before he was injured and given what Symes has given us lately, I'd be hard pressed to select Danger ahead of Symes at present. (If I happened to be a selector of course )
I do think Danger will be the much better player in the long run.

 

[BACCS]

I'll no doubt get some flak for this thought, but........given what Danger was giving us before he was injured and given what Symes has given us lately, I'd be hard pressed to select Danger ahead of Symes at present. (If I happened to be a selector of course )
I do think Danger will be the much better player in the long run.

Pretty valid point actually mate, however I see Danger and Mackay still coming in this week, but not for Symes, rather Sloane and the very unlucky Douglas (he played well on Friday night, great defensive pressure). I think this is the 3rd time I've repeated this in this thread.