Preview Changes: R16 vs Melbourne, Saturday July 2, 4.05pm ACST @ Adelaide Oval

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Geoffa32

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V Gold Coast 19 touches 84%DE , 0 turnovers 6 score involvements

V Eagles 15 touches 73% 3 turnovers 5 score involvements and a goal

First game back was poor

He has got better every week since coming back in and the last two weeks has been involved in a number of goals. Even in his first two weeks back against Geelong and Eagles he was the one who hit Fog on the chest for goals in each game

Coming back after two years off - give the guy a break. Key player for us getting better


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You can see the class is there. He has to play each week to get the mojo back.

A big preseason and 2023 should be good for him.

I like that I saw him play the wing/midfield role at a few bounces.

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CrowBloke

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But how's the fickle nature of Crows fans?

We know he's sh!t as a forward, move on from that, he's been put in the backline for his FIRST YEAR as a KPD.

We dropped him after a Carlton match where they beat their club record of 74 inside 50's, against two KPF's who are leaders for the Coleman? Our other defenders were also dogsh!t

People keep whinging about the Carlton game and forget that he was IN the team when we beat Port Adelaide, Richmond and Western Bulldogs.

Crows are 3rd bottom in the competition for marks and DEAD last in the competitions for Contested Marks. Frampton has the 2nd highest average for marks in the team and equal 4th for contested marks.

Avg of 18 disposals per game at a DE of 87%. I will say that again, 87%. The only two other blokes with a higher DE than him are Butts and Hamill, who run at less than 10 disposals a game.

3rd highest metres gained on avg in the team at 424.8m. Show me another defender that's not a HB with those numbers... We are 4th from bottom in the comp for M gained.

So no Sh!t, 3 of the stats where we are amongst the worst in the competition, he is up there as being one of the best in our team.

His biggest issues for me are currently having ZERO tackles for the year, and having a relatively low contested possessions count.

BUT JESUS H CHRIST, play to his advantages! Leave Butts and Doedee to be the KPD's (Doedee has been useless in the intercept role anyway) and let Frampton roam/intercept and chop out in the ruck.

The funny thing is that he's SIX GAMES into his career as a KPD, and yet people have written him off because he hasn't worked out his lead up/contested defending craft just yet. That can still come with time, and on the weekend he was excellent in these areas, but his strengths in other areas are surely too much to ignore to not select him.



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Adelaide - 2022
19​
Port Adelaide
3
W​
22​
12​
5​
4​
16​
5​
5​
2​
1​
4​
10​
1​
5​
97​
20​
Essendon
4
L​
22​
9​
3​
7​
16​
7​
2​
2​
2​
6​
9​
6​
90​
21​
Richmond
5
W​
22​
18​
9​
4​
22​
6​
1​
5​
1​
4​
17​
5​
100​
22​
Western Bulldogs
6
W​
22​
18​
9​
8​
26​
7​
1​
1​
1​
6​
16​
2​
5​
94​
23​
Greater Western Sydney
7
L​
22​
11​
7​
2​
13​
6​
1​
1​
1​
2​
10​
1​
4​
99​
24​
Carlton
8
L​
22​
14​
6​
1​
15​
1​
7​
1​
3​
1​
3​
1​
9​
9​
1​
93​
Totals6 (3-0-3)82392610813861168423714341
Really good post.
I have to respect an opposing pov which is so passionate and detailed, and supported so strongly by relevant stats.
You've certainly made me re-think my criticisms of Frampton.

I still have doubts in the area where you say "move on from that" --- his awfulness as a forward, plus:
--- the fact that this is his 7th. year in the system. If he hasn't established himself as a best-22 player by now, I doubt that he will. The caveat is that he still might, especially looking at the positives you mention and his game against the Bulldogs, but I have my doubts.
--- the other things you mention, tackling and low contested possessions count; they suggest he's more of a passive type. When he's given the ball by teammates, or when it bounces his way in space, he uses it well. But he's not a proactive ball-getter.

I'm coming around to using Frampton as a floating intercepter around HB (**below) with some time in ruck, with training designed to improve his body-to-body hustles and ruckcraft. With his height, some good Coaching and help from Burgess plus his own drive (if he has it), he might come good.
I'd be very happy if he did.

P.S. ** above ... another poster pointed out that if we pick Frampton, Melbourne will stick someone (like Fritsch) on him and tell the mids to play through Frampton who is not good one-on-one. It was a fair point.
 

Crow_Magnon

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Out:
Hamill (inj), McAdam (inj), McHenry (omitted)

In:
Jones, Newchurch, Gollant

Sub:
McHenry


Would be equally happy with Sholl as sub, but surely those 3 ins and 3 outs are a lock.
Agreed, don't think we need another tall to come in as Melbourne are missing McDonald still as well as Gawn. Gollant perfect for McAdam, Jones for Hamill is logical and Newchurch to be rewarded for his recent form. I think our defence can hold up against Brown and Weideman...and we can still risk Murray can chop out in the ruck...in fact I'd almost prefer him against Jackson for the majority of the game, and bring in someone else down back - just not sure who!
 

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Golumless

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I'd probably go a little further. I actually think the club is desperate to see guys like McHendry and Murphy be successful to the point they are afforded opportunities others aren't.

The reason is they went to somehow prove that all you need to do is try hard and the results will follow. Talent doesn't matter.

That's basically the summary of Nick's coaching philosophy.

But this isn't primary school and talent very much matters.

I disagree. This is a story line we've seen way too often in the AFL.

If you don't have an abundance of top tier small forward talent, you then go to your cheap out options. Guys who are shitwreckers and apply a ton of pressure. These guys get 70-80 games to see if they can be more than that, and are replaced when they don't end up to snuff. After all, eventually a 19-20 year old comes aboard who offers a similar profile. It's how Murphy and McHenry got their gigs. It'll be the most likely way they go unless Adelaide becomes flushed with small forward talent (or tall forward) which will end their careers prematurely.

Newchurch will get a debut at some point this season. Heck it should be this week, seeing a 20 disposal, 4.3 effort after a strong season is a game that usually gets rewarded and there isn't an obvious player keeping him out.
 
Last edited:

DJ75

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Really good post.
I have to respect an opposing pov which is so passionate and detailed, and supported so strongly by relevant stats.
You've certainly made me re-think my criticisms of Frampton.

I still have doubts in the area where you say "move on from that" --- his awfulness as a forward, plus:
--- the fact that this is his 7th. year in the system. If he hasn't established himself as a best-22 player by now, I doubt that he will. The caveat is that he still might, especially looking at the positives you mention and his game against the Bulldogs, but I have my doubts.
--- the other things you mention, tackling and low contested possessions count; they suggest he's more of a passive type. When he's given the ball by teammates, or when it bounces his way in space, he uses it well. But he's not a proactive ball-getter.

I'm coming around to using Frampton as a floating intercepter around HB (**below) with some time in ruck, with training designed to improve his body-to-body hustles and ruckcraft. With his height, some good Coaching and help from Burgess plus his own drive (if he has it), he might come good.
I'd be very happy if he did.

P.S. ** above ... another poster pointed out that if we pick Frampton, Melbourne will stick someone (like Fritsch) on him and tell the mids to play through Frampton who is not good one-on-one. It was a fair point.
I guess if we play Frampton and they drag him to the goal square, it at least means that when we put Dawson on half back, they can't also drag him to the goal square.

Genius move really.

Homer Simpson Cartoon GIF
 

Jeffcrowe

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So when Butts went down with Covid and a concussion why did we choose to not play him?

Is it that the coaches don't rate him and don't see a future for him at AFL level?
I find it funny the support Frampton gets for taking a few intercept marks and not defending

Meanwhile I’d say Murray is tracking v well and actually does a role (2nd tall shut down defender ) … slowly adding some offence and strings to his bow too like going into ruck

Murray is in his 2nd season and is 21 yo

Frampton is in his 7th season and is 25 yo
 

WeedsMullet84

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Re Murray - barely remember him losing a contest all game ( not sure he did ) , also was good in his ruck cameo

Best game of his career , there is no way we are dropping a 20 game 21 yo developing key position defender who is hitting his straps

Hitting his straps? Come on mate...

Yeah don't get me wrong, Murray didn't have a bad game, but if Thilthorpe was in the side he wouldn't have been chopping out in the Ruck, and then we'd just revert back to having two dour and unimaginative lock-down defenders. Keeping in mind we were playing North Melbourne, and one of their forwards was McKay, who still managed to have 4/5 shots on goal.

Check Butts/Murray/Doedee's stats for the game, almost identical. Zero tackles for both Butts & murray and 1 for Doedee.

ONE mark for Doedee for the game, 3 for Murray and 4 for Butts.

I will say AGAIN, we are 4th from bottom for marks in the AFL, and DEAD LAST for contested marks. Having two KPD's + Doedee who are choosing to spoil instead of mark is affecting our ability to get the ball moving forward quicker, and our I50 is telling us that the ball is just going straight back to our defence.
 

Jeffcrowe

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Hitting his straps? Come on mate...

Yeah don't get me wrong, Murray didn't have a bad game, but if Thilthorpe was in the side he wouldn't have been chopping out in the Ruck, and then we'd just revert back to having two dour and unimaginative lock-down defenders. Keeping in mind we were playing North Melbourne, and one of their forwards was McKay, who still managed to have 4/5 shots on goal.

Check Butts/Murray/Doedee's stats for the game, almost identical. Zero tackles for both Butts & murray and 1 for Doedee.

ONE mark for Doedee for the game, 3 for Murray and 4 for Butts.

I will say AGAIN, we are 4th from bottom for marks in the AFL, and DEAD LAST for contested marks. Having two KPD's + Doedee who are choosing to spoil instead of mark is affecting our ability to get the ball moving forward quicker, and our I50 is telling us that the ball is just going straight back to our defence.
Not focused on his ruck , that was just a bonus

I’m focusing on the fact we’ve found ourselves a 2nd tall defender that will be a reliable player

If Harto was good enough to do some jobs in a good team then so is this guy at 21 yo with improvement to come

More confident in our tall defenders going forward than most around here

Even the stats back up Murray’s one on one win rate

Think we should focus on other parts of the ground mid / forward
 

Mutineer

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I disagree. This is a story line we've seen way too often in the AFL.

If you don't have an abundance of top tier small forward talent, you then go to your cheap out options. Guys who are shitwreckers and apply a ton of pressure. These guys get 70-80 games to see if they can be more than that, and are replaced when they don't end up to snuff. After all, eventually a 19-20 year old comes aboard who offers a similar profile. It's how Murphy and McHenry got their gigs. It'll be the most likely way they go unless Adelaide becomes flushed with small forward talent (or tall forward) which will end their careers prematurely.

Newchurch will get a debut at some point this season. Heck it should be this week, seeing a 20 disposal, 4.3 effort after a strong season is a game that usually gets rewarded and there isn't an obvious player keeping him out.
Newchurch has been spending quite a bit of time playing wing and very high half forward as opposed to formerly playing forward pocket/closer to goal. Perhaps it's the Burgess effect but maybe the club hasn't pigeonholed him as solely a small forward too?
 

WeedsMullet84

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I find it funny the support Frampton gets for taking a few intercept marks and not defending

Meanwhile I’d say Murray is tracking v well and actually does a role (2nd tall shut down defender ) … slowly adding some offence and strings to his bow too like going into ruck

Murray is in his 2nd season and is 21 yo

Frampton is in his 7th season and is 25 yo
And there we go again, he keeps getting compared to other defenders to how long he's been in the system total, but not as a Defender.

He's SIX GAMES into his career as a defender, Murray has been doing it his whole life. It will take time to develop that craft.
 

Mutineer

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Hitting his straps? Come on mate...

Yeah don't get me wrong, Murray didn't have a bad game, but if Thilthorpe was in the side he wouldn't have been chopping out in the Ruck, and then we'd just revert back to having two dour and unimaginative lock-down defenders. Keeping in mind we were playing North Melbourne, and one of their forwards was McKay, who still managed to have 4/5 shots on goal.

Check Butts/Murray/Doedee's stats for the game, almost identical. Zero tackles for both Butts & murray and 1 for Doedee.

ONE mark for Doedee for the game, 3 for Murray and 4 for Butts.

I will say AGAIN, we are 4th from bottom for marks in the AFL, and DEAD LAST for contested marks. Having two KPD's + Doedee who are choosing to spoil instead of mark is affecting our ability to get the ball moving forward quicker, and our I50 is telling us that the ball is just going straight back to our defence.
Geez not sure I'd class either Butts or Murray just yet as dour imaginative lockdown defenders given their age and AFL experience at this point, both have the athleticism to become much more as they grow into their AFL careers especially Murray who has raw speed, strength and a great leap.

Very early days for both.
 

Scorpus

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And there we go again, he keeps getting compared to other defenders to how long he's been in the system total, but not as a Defender.

He's SIX GAMES into his career as a defender, Murray has been doing it his whole life. It will take time to develop that craft.
My main issue is he spent an entire pre-season as a defender but still came out looking totally lost and hopeless defending contests.

Spending months and months working on his craft only to look like he's never played defense before is not a good sign
 

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crows dude

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Turner fit to play and Glenelg have given permission

SANFL TEAM GUESS

RACHELE MCASEY MCHENRY
MURPHY GOLLANT PEDLAR
COOK CROUCH DAVIS
SHARRAD FRAMPTON MCPHERSON
BROWN BORLASE HALL

STRACHAN
TAYLOR
TURNER

I/C NAKERVIS BOYLE WRIGHT MCKENZIE

AFL TEAM GUESS

EMER - HIMMELBERG

FOGARTY THILTHORPE ROWE
KEAYS WALKER NEWCHURCH
SOLIGO HATELY DAWSON
LAIRD WORRELL HINGE
JONES BUTTS SMITH

O'BRIEN
BERRY
SCHOENBERG

I/C MURRAY (BACK UP RUCK) MILERA SHOLL DOEDEE PARNELL
 

rabidcrow

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Not focused on his ruck , that was just a bonus

I’m focusing on the fact we’ve found ourselves a 2nd tall defender that will be a reliable player

If Harto was good enough to do some jobs in a good team then so is this guy at 21 yo with improvement to come

More confident in our tall defenders going forward than most around here

Even the stats back up Murray’s one on one win rate

Think we should focus on other parts of the ground mid / forward

We do need to start to settle our back 7 down though and work out who we want in there. Lots of chopping and changing this year and defence in particular need to know each other’s games inside and out to function well


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Jeffcrowe

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Geez not sure I'd class either Butts or Murray just yet as dour imaginative lockdown defenders given their age and AFL experience at this point, both have the athleticism to become much more as they grow into their AFL careers especially Murray who has raw speed, strength and a great leap.

Very early days for both.
Exactly

We want to back young players in on here but then they don’t get backed in for not being the finished product

Get 50 games into Murray and Butts and I’m sure they’re not going to be our problem …. Don’t think they are now either
 

Jeffcrowe

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We do need to start to settle our back 7 down though and work out who we want in there. Lots of chopping and changing this year and defence in particular need to know each other’s games inside and out to function well


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If Doedee wasn’t injured and/ or out of form I’d be very satisfied with our taller backs

We need a bit more run / carry and kicking drive back there from an offence point of view from the smaller backs
 

WeedsMullet84

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Not focused on his ruck , that was just a bonus

I’m focusing on the fact we’ve found ourselves a 2nd tall defender that will be a reliable player

If Harto was good enough to do some jobs in a good team then so is this guy at 21 yo with improvement to come

More confident in our tall defenders going forward than most around here

Even the stats back up Murray’s one on one win rate

Think we should focus on other parts of the ground mid / forward

Mate you're living in 1980. If you're happy that we've got two dour, almost identical lock-down defenders, who lack any sort of creativity from the back-line then we're not going to progress. You look at any of the good teams of the last 10 years and you simply don't have that sort of makeup anymore in the backline.
 

WeedsMullet84

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Geez not sure I'd class either Butts or Murray just yet as dour imaginative lockdown defenders given their age and AFL experience at this point, both have the athleticism to become much more as they grow into their AFL careers especially Murray who has raw speed, strength and a great leap.

Very early days for both.

Agree to disagree, but I appreciate the differing opinions, & Jeffcrowe
 

jackster83

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Maybe something like:
McPherson for Hamill (inj)
Thilthorpe/Gollant for McAdam (inj)
Jones for Parnell
Newchurch for one of McHenry/Rachele
Parnell sub.

Will be impressed if we overlook Crouch, Brown and Murphy.
 

Jeffcrowe

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Mate you're living in 1980. If you're happy that we've got two dour, almost identical lock-down defenders, who lack any sort of creativity from the back-line then we're not going to progress. You look at any of the good teams of the last 10 years and you simply don't have that sort of makeup anymore in the backline.
They’re 21 yo . First step is to be able to defend . Next step add layers to that which they are

Let’s see in another 40 games
 

Betts are off

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I think he got 2 centre clearances too. He was surprisingly good in there.
Murray doesn't need to rack up hit outs either. Just make sure the other guy doesn't give the oppostion silver service. And between his aggressive jumping and relentless work and big and fast body when the ball hit the deck he ticked that box easily IMO
 

Geoffa32

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We do need to start to settle our back 7 down though and work out who we want in there. Lots of chopping and changing this year and defence in particular need to know each other’s games inside and out to function well


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Going forward our back 7 should be

Butts
Murray
Doedee
Hinge
Jones
Hamill
MacPherson
Parnell


The two smalls after Brown are more of a concern than our two best KPDs. Butts and Murray should be our two pillars for the next 10 years. We do lack KPD depth, but

Jones and Hamill look like quality play creating HBs. Could argue Milera here as well.

Doedee the loose tall/interceptor.

Hinge the spare, pushing up to wing coverage.

But our small defenders?

MacPherson is a good actual defender and good with disposal. But durability?

Parnell is very good at creating play, but a guy his size in the Defensive end needs to be a hard tackler, an actual defender. I have not seen this from him yet.


I struggle to see our long term lockdown small defender.

With his hardness at the contest could McHenry be tried?




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rabidcrow

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Murray doesn't need to rack up hit outs either. Just make sure the other guy doesn't give the oppostion silver service. And between his aggressive jumping and relentless work and big and fast body when the ball hit the deck he ticked that box easily IMO

I don’t disagree. I just wouldn’t run with him as the main ruck at this stage. Like his athleticism and aggression though


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