Preview Changes: R4 vs Brisbane

[jenny61_99]

Don't gift Thommo a sham 'coaching' year. The obvious move was keep Lyons on the $300k per season less than Gibbs required. Lyons would be in his last year right now. And we’d have about $500k extra for CC. Thing is, you and those like you are looking at Crouch, Crouch & Sloane and saying that we couldn’t use him. It was stupidity then and it’s not gotten any smarter with the benefit of hindsight.

Charlie was never staying with us.

 

[Geoffa32]

This is what happens when you look at numbers instead of impact. For example, Lyons, when he played, was often the bloke who would hit a leading forward on the boob out of a stoppage. He was a major source of effective F50 entries for us. When was the last time you saw B Crouch hit a leading forward?

I'd say a mid of Lyons, Greenwood and and 20 games Chayce would be just as effective as what we have now, with upside and $500k in the bank.

Right now Lyons is the better option.

Would you have said that when we traded him?

Bear in mind he struggled at GC.


He is in a midfield that best uses his talent.


We don't have an attacking mid the quality of Zorko and an inside mid like Neale.


The midfield you propose is only marginally better, based on how bad the Crouch bros and Sloane are playing not on talent. It is still the worst in the comp.

The Lyons debate is more about moving the deck chairs.

He only makes your midfield better if he can work with a strong midfield group.



I would argue M Crouch is the same. His decline goes with Sloane and his brother drop.


We should have kept Greenwood. But this contract is his payday, and wanting four years. But after we got burnt with Jenkins five year deal I can understand the club not giving in.


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[kirky]

Huh?

No Gibbs, Hartigan, Seedsman, MacKay, M Crouch.

In 4 games we have seen Jones, McHenry, Hamill, McAdam, Fogarty, McAsey, Stengle, and Frampton.

What are you talking about?

Who knows but I’m started to get convinced some on here are on the piss 24/7.

We are finally doing what we have all wanted for years and still people complain. We are playing the youngsters, giving them multiple games and not bringing the old farts back in.

 

[kirky]

That is pretty damning right there.

 

[1970crow]

Charlie was never staying with us.

I know that, but the anti-Lyon's brigade had to deflect away so brought keeping CC into the equation so they could yet again create a fantasy where not paying Lyons $250k x 3 years was brilliant list management. I had no choice but to counter based on that fantasy.

 

[Geoffa32]

I know that, but the anti-Lyon's brigade had to deflect away so brought keeping CC into the equation so they could yet again create a fantasy where not paying Lyons $250k x 3 years was brilliant list management. I had no choice but to counter based on that fantasy.

Keeping Lyons maintains the worst midfield in the league.

Our issue is we don't have an elite mid. The last one we drafted, in 2007, is now at Geelong.

Our midfield was bad in 2015 to 2017 as well.

During that period we got away with it by starting attack from HB and having three elite forwards and a soon to be elite Cameron. Not to mention Teague as Forwards Coach.

Teams tighten up defensively, Laird is now useless due to this. Cameron goes. Tex, Eddie and Jenkins get old.


Our midfield is now exposed. But worsened due to lack of quality at either end.


Keeping Lyons would not prevent this. If he was with us now he would be another whipping boy. Struggling just as M Crouch is now.

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[1970crow]

Who knows but I’m started to get convinced some on here are on the piss 24/7.

We are finally doing what we have all wanted for years and still people complain. We are playing the youngsters, giving them multiple games and not bringing the old farts back in.

It's actually reasonably good. We're only 2 short from best case really, Tex or Lynch for Stengle and Brown or Kelly for Sholl. From there it's basically swapping kids in/out after a block of games and the seniors as required. As long as Butts is first to give McAsey a breather and we never ever see Gibbs and Mackay, we're doing as much as we can do.

Wouldn't mind seeing some role changes in 2-3 weeks blocks just to freshen up the minds and see if we can add a bit of value to the player. Laird, Murphy and Brouch to rotate through forward, back and midfield is a really obvious one to me. I quite liked Lynch at half back in the 2 quarters that he swapped with McAsey, who I liked up forward. But that component would be much less worthwhile with the 2nd ruck returning. And young mids being played in their actual roles. Sloane to wing/half forward.

One ladt thing, no more playing injured players. Sloane especially.

 

[1970crow]

Keeping Lyons maintains the worst midfield in the league.

Our issue is we don't have an elite mid. The last one we drafted, in 2007, is now at Geelong.

Our midfield was bad in 2015 to 2017 as well.

During that period we got away with it by starting attack from HB and having three elite forwards and a soon to be elite Cameron. Not to mention Teague as Forwards Coach.

Teams tighten up defensively, Laird is now useless due to this. Cameron goes. Tex, Eddie and Jenkins get old.


Our midfield is now exposed. But worsened due to lack of quality at either end.


Keeping Lyons would not prevent this. If he was with us now he would be another whipping boy. Struggling just as M Crouch is now.

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There is no way that not keeping Lyons on $250k per year for 3 years was good list management. Instead we overpaid for a lifetime b grade cruiser, all years beyond peak and gave a sham coaching role purely as a gift for services rendered to a cooked warrior. Lyons was a muted talent at our club, as many are. Right now, we'd have him at his peak and the option to trade out to refresh our list. Instead, we've got an extra SANFL year into Thommo, plus 1 laughable AFL game and Gibbs chewing up cap and a spot for another year.

It was a bad decision made by a group of people who've made a lot of them. You were wrong on your rating of Lyons as a player and wrong to support the decision made by a group of numpties.

 

[thebirdman 24]

On Lyons kicking i thought it was solid but his real strength was decision making with the ball. If he had some more penetration on his kicking he would be much more dangerous.

Sloane is probably a similar comparison for kicking, skill itself is average but decision making very good. Sloane can give it a bigger roost though.

 

[Cap]

This is what happens when you look at numbers instead of impact. For example, Lyons, when he played, was often the bloke who would hit a leading forward on the boob out of a stoppage. He was a major source of effective F50 entries for us. When was the last time you saw B Crouch hit a leading forward?

I'd say a mid of Lyons, Greenwood and and 20 games Chayce would be just as effective as what we have now, with upside and $500k in the bank.

Is this new term impact like people with no real experience trying to sell you with life experience?

A midfield with Greenwood, Lyons and Chayce would get slaughtered.

 

[Miss Vanessa]

Who knows but I’m started to get convinced some on here are on the piss 24/7.

We are finally doing what we have all wanted for years and still people complain. We are playing the youngsters, giving them multiple games and not bringing the old farts back in.

The thing that’s so bloody annoying though, is that all the young guys we’re now seeing should have way more games under their belts than they currently do. It’s so mind-bendingly frustrating that all our young guys have so little experience at the highest level.

 

[1970crow]

On Lyons kicking i thought it was solid but his real strength was decision making with the ball. If he had some more penetration on his kicking he would be much more dangerous.

Sloane is probably a similar comparison for kicking, skill itself is average but decision making very good. Sloane can give it a bigger roost though.

Lyons is more of a kicker than most inside geared players. And he takes on kicks to targets more than most, it's a riskier proposition and it's why his efficiency suffers. Compare him to Brodie Smith. Kick to handball ratio about the same, disposals about the same, effective disposals about the same but Lyons gets half is ball in a contest whereas Smith about a quarter. And it's exactly that type of midfielder that we don't have and haven't had since he and Danger both left. A mid that can exit the stoppage on foot and kick forward putting defences under pressure.

Some people are blind to this despite watching this type of stoppage exit cause us grief year after year. They use disposal efficiency stats and useless terms like slow or whatever. Just like Roo, impact doesn't count.

He's not far behind this guy for stats. Give him a bit more TOG and he's there.

 

[Geoffa32]

There is no way that not keeping Lyons on $250k per year for 3 years was good list management. Instead we overpaid for a lifetime b grade cruiser, all years beyond peak and gave a sham coaching role purely as a gift for services rendered to a cooked warrior. Lyons was a muted talent at our club, as many are. Right now, we'd have him at his peak and the option to trade out to refresh our list. Instead, we've got an extra SANFL year into Thommo, plus 1 laughable AFL game and Gibbs chewing up cap and a spot for another year.

It was a bad decision made by a group of people who've made a lot of them. You were wrong on your rating of Lyons as a player and wrong to support the decision made by a group of numpties.

I said I was wrong in my rating of him.

But the bigger issue is that the last elite mid we had is playing for Geelong and was drafted in 2007.

Combination of poor drafting for need and development.

Who have we drafted since 2007 could have been elite mid?
Sloane. Got the best out of himself. Our second best mid since then.
B Crouch. Injuries killed him. Could have been elite if fit.
M Crouch. Could argue was an elite inside mid. Has never been a game breaker.

The next batch.

Milera. I am personally disappointed he may not get to that level.

Gooch no
Poholke. Could be serviceable.
Jones. Sloane type. Will work hard and is gutsy. Won't be elite.

Anyone else?


This is our issue keeping Lyons does not fix it.




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[Miss Vanessa]

Is this new term impact like people with no real experience trying to sell you with life experience?

A midfield with Greenwood, Lyons and Chayce would get slaughtered.

We’ve had a few centre square setups this year that have been absolute doozies. My favourite so far has been Atkins, Keays and B. Crouch attending a centre square clearance... needless to say that we did not win that clearance. Currently I’d take Lyons, Greenwood and Jones. It would be better than anything we’ve seen so far this year... god is that a depressing thought.

 

[Geoffa32]

I am not defending the club.

I am saying we have a fundamental flaw in our list management/development system.


One decision on one player does not fix that.


If the best midfield you can think of for our club is Greenwood, Jones and Lyons you are not seeing the bigger picture.

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[Cap]

Lyons is more of a kicker than most inside geared players. And he takes on kicks to targets more than most, it's a riskier proposition and it's why his efficiency suffers. Compare him to Brodie Smith. Kick to handball ratio about the same, disposals about the same, effective disposals about the same but Lyons gets half is ball in a contest whereas Smith about a quarter. And it's exactly that type of midfielder that we don't have and haven't had since he and Danger both left. A mid that can exit the stoppage on foot and kick forward putting defences under pressure.

Some people are blind to this despite watching this type of stoppage exit cause us grief year after year. They use disposal efficiency stats and useless terms like slow or whatever. Just like Roo, impact doesn't count.

He's not far behind this guy for stats. Give him a bit more TOG and he's there.



View attachment 900735

The fact Smith has played on the HBF for 99.9% of his career probably renders that comparions void.

Lyons isn't Danger, Danger isn't Dusty.

 

[1970crow]

The fact Smith has played on the HBF for 99.9% of his career probably renders that comparions void.

Lyons isn't Danger, Danger isn't Dusty.

Only if you're intent on discussing based upon a predetermined answer. The comparison is valid as to efficiency and kick:handball ratio despite smith being an outsider with huge wraps on his leg and Lyons an insider. Smith takes on some awesome kicks, so he suffers efficiency wise, we accept that. Lyons suffers because he kicks more than most inside mids.

Those stats are Bonts.

And yes they're not, and nor is Lyons any of Crouch, Crouch or Sloane. He has a skill that is and has been sorely needed in our midfield mix. The ability to exit a stoppage running at our forwards and being in a position to hit them up. We can argue about how good he is at that, but I'll take the guy who knows ahead of the stat and height freaks around here.

 

[Mego Red]

Seems to me the same bullshit which has gone on for a while of certain players being immune to being dropped and certain players out of favour at selection. Seems like the same people that influenced Pyke's selections are now influencing Nicks. Can we hire a coach that's his own man? That's right we don't hire them. Sorted.

This can't be ******* serious.

Literally the opposite is true.

Nicks took Matt Crouch's gold card and tore it up. His dinky little handballs to nowhere aren't good enough. He knows that and he hasn't changed what he was doing. So he gets dropped.

Good to see Nicks has some authentic standards he's put in place. Now Matt Crouch might know thyings are serious, and it's time to stop going backwards.

 

[Geoffa32]

This can't be ******* serious.

Literally the opposite is true.

Nicks took Matt Crouch's gold card and tore it up. His dinky little handballs to nowhere aren't good enough. He knows that and he hasn't changed what he was doing. So he gets dropped.

Good to see Nicks has some authentic standards he's put in place. Now Matt Crouch might know thyings are serious, and it's time to stop going backwards.

Pyke would have Harto, Gibbs, McKay playing this week.

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[1970crow]

I am not defending the club.

I am saying we have a fundamental flaw in our list management/development system.


One decision on one player does not fix that.


If the best midfield you can think of for our club is Greenwood, Jones and Lyons you are not seeing the bigger picture.

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I'm not sure who that's in response to, but anyone that lists a midfield as 3 players is a ******* idiot. 20 years ago Brisbane had the fab 4 plus buggalugs coming through in there. And here we are 20 years later and at the AFC list management and supporters can't count past 3. Since Brouch has proven incapable of getting his speed or trust of it back, Lyons is the only mid we've had since Danger with a valuable point of difference. Sloane did with his ability to gut run forward and use strong hands. But haven't seen that for a long while. So, in reality, Lyons was the one we most needed to keep.

 

[Geoffa32]

I'm not sure who that's in response to, but anyone that lists a midfield as 3 players is a ******* idiot. 20 years ago Brisbane had the fab 4 plus buggalugs coming through in there. And here we are 20 years later and at the AFC list management and supporters can't count past 3. Since Brouch has proven incapable of getting his speed or trust of it back, Lyons is the only mid we've had since Danger with a valuable point of difference. Sloane did with his ability to gut run forward and use strong hands. But haven't seen that for a long while. So, in reality, Lyons was the one we most needed to keep.

It doesn't fix our fundamental problem.

Agree or disagree?

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[Apsaalooke]

We're missing an inside bull. Since Cam Ellis-Yeoman got injured last year and then left this year we've barely won a game and hardly won a clearance. I know he didn't do much around the ground but he did a lot inside the pack and Brisbane are now benefiting from it.
He was cheap in wage terms and Brisbane got a gift for pick 47.

 

[Cap]

Only if you're intent on discussing based upon a predetermined answer. The comparison is valid as to efficiency and kick:handball ratio despite smith being an outsider with huge wraps on his leg and Lyons an insider. Smith takes on some awesome kicks, so he suffers efficiency wise, we accept that. Lyons suffers because he kicks more than most inside mids.

Those stats are Bonts.

And yes they're not, and nor is Lyons any of Crouch, Crouch or Sloane. He has a skill that is and has been sorely needed in our midfield mix. The ability to exit a stoppage running at our forwards and being in a position to hit them up. We can argue about how good he is at that, but I'll take the guy who knows ahead of the stat and height freaks around here.

Sorry, I didn't even look at the stats, again the inside v outside has some validity if Smith played midfield which he does not.

Sure you can try to apply so of the things you have tried, but its apples and oranges.

Don't be sucked in by Hugh 'impact' comment just because you don't like Roo. Sure impact is relevant but its not the whole story, but given you've tried to compare a 27 year Lyon with a 24 year old Bont provides you with the clear example of why Lyons is at his third club and Bont is rated highly.

We'd be pretty much in the same place playing Gibbs or Lyons.

 

[Cap]

I guess we could accept the argument that, it would be nice to have Lyons to replace hopelessly out of form M Crouch.

But if he was getting picked ahead of McHenry or Jones I'd be as annoyed as when we'd pick Douglas ahead of Jones.

 

[hey shorty]

I guess we could accept the argument that, it would be nice to have Lyons to replace hopelessly out of form M Crouch.

But if he was getting picked ahead of McHenry or Jones I'd be as annoyed as when we'd pick Douglas ahead of Jones.

Basically this.