Changes v Adelaide, 20/5

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Golden_6

Norm Smith Medallist
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Our tall defensive setup will be definitely be one of the interesting points of the rest of our season. It’s a crucial makeup of any successful side and we’re still tinkering with the balance.

Other than Jones, you could make a case for any two of Keath, Bruce, Gardner, O’Brien and potentially even Busslinger or O’Donnell as the supporting cast. There’s not a lot separating some of those players and sometimes it might simply come down to oppositions matchups on a week to week basis
 
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Aug 24, 2012
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Gardner and Keath weren't playing for the same role this round, and in this season, whenever we have had some fit competition, they haven't been. The injury to Bruce with Gardner returning from injury is the only time Keath has been played as a 2KPD. I think it is relatively safe to assume that in terms of the coaches' ideal roles, it is (no particular order):
1-2 KPD: Jones, Gardner, Bruce
3 KPD: O'Brien, Keath

In our system the two positions play quite differently. The latter plays higher, with less accountability and more mobility, and more of an offensive focus. It is Keath's more traditional role, and his clear focus on slimming down from last season adds further weight to the role the coaches see him fitting ideally.

Frankly, I don't think Keath or Gardner have been very good. I don't think the decision has been made to choose Gardner over Keath, though. We have elected to maintain a consistent structure, but chosen O'Brien over Keath on form.
 
Right now Gardner is in better form, Keath having a week off is good as he’s basically playing hurt these days.

I can’t believe the cherry picking of stats argument, when it’s countered with a cherry picking of stats.

I also couldn’t care less if I could count the number of possessions a KPD gets on one hand. They are meaningless for their position and what matters is how they fare against their direct opponents at any given time.
 

LittleG

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Gardner and Keath weren't playing for the same role this round, and in this season, whenever we have had some fit competition, they haven't been. The injury to Bruce with Gardner returning from injury is the only time Keath has been played as a 2KPD. I think it is relatively safe to assume that in terms of the coaches' ideal roles, it is (no particular order):
1-2 KPD: Jones, Gardner, Bruce
3 KPD: O'Brien, Keath

In our system the two positions play quite differently. The latter plays higher, with less accountability and more mobility, and more of an offensive focus. It is Keath's more traditional role, and his clear focus on slimming down from last season adds further weight to the role the coaches see him fitting ideally.

Frankly, I don't think Keath or Gardner have been very good. I don't think the decision has been made to choose Gardner over Keath, though. We have elected to maintain a consistent structure, but chosen O'Brien over Keath on form.

Busslinger is the other third tall who could go passed TOB & Keath this year.

Longer term he should become a 1/2 KPD but right now, he isn’t far behind TOB. Probably the ability to spend long enough on ground may keep him in the VFL this year.
 
Aug 24, 2012
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Busslinger is the other third tall who could go passed TOB & Keath this year.

Longer term he should become a 1/2 KPD but right now, he isn’t far behind TOB. Probably the ability to spend long enough on ground may keep him in the VFL this year.
I haven't included the likes of Buss/JOD simply because we don't have the selection history to assess where they slot in. But yes, I suspect you're right and that both of them are being groomed for the second category, at least presently.
 

Golden_6

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Busslinger is the other third tall who could go passed TOB & Keath this year.

Longer term he should become a 1/2 KPD but right now, he isn’t far behind TOB. Probably the ability to spend long enough on ground may keep him in the VFL this year.
I think for the rest of the year it should play out as:

1 KPD - Jones
2 KPD - Keath, Bruce or Gardner (Playing a more lockdown role as all three are suspect ball users under pressure)
3 KPD - O’Brien, Busslinger or O’Donnell. O’Brien is playing that role today as the other may just not be ready for that role full time but we may see them there at certain points this season.
 
Anyone who is cherry picking such stats needs a good lie down and an Bex, so I really don't want to make your life any more difficult. Besides, if this is the best you can come up with to reinforce your argument then your argument must be extremely weak indeed.

Firstly, I couldn't give a Rat's how many spoils a player gets because it is a pretty low-grade stat. If you have to point to how many spoils you've made then you haven't got a lot to brag about. Secondly how convoluted are you trying to be by referencing whether something is below some 'average'. Is that a personal, positional or team average? Don't bother answering because I don't actually care, I'm just making a point about the stat.

Last week Gardner had 4 measly possessions, 3 uncontested, and at least one of his disposals was a howlingly bad turnover under zero pressure. He also gave away a free kick. At some stage I may go back and review the other three, but I don't think any of them were amazingly productively offensive in their outcome. So not exactly scintillating form, and not a great game by anyone's standards. It's also worth noting that Gardner's only other game was quite poor, with some poor defensive mistakes helping rather than hindering GWS's late charge against us the previous week. He has still yet to take a contested match at AFL level this year. .

Keath on the other hand had, 9 disposals last match, not exactly awesome but he still got his hands on the footy more than double the occasions that Ryan did. He also had more tackles (2) and clearances (1), than Ryan's 0 and 0.
You might point out that Alex had a costly turnover, which would be true, but it came when he was kicking hurriedly under strong pressure following Ryan's aforementioned unpressured mistake that he was vainly trying to clean up! Sometimes context really does matter.

The fact that the only stat Gardner fans can seemingly keep pointing to after his many years in the AFL system is his number of spoils is I believe a testament to how much the guy has struggled at the highest level. Nobody talks about how many spoils Steven May or Liam Jones have made. That's not because they don't make some great spoils occasionally, they certainly do, but more importantly they take contested marks and actually turn defence into offense.

I'm not saying that spoils are all bad, some times they are vitally important but so many spoils just end up going to the opposition anyway, so the team didn't necessarily gain from the act. As occurred for some of Ryan's spoils last week for example. Which is why I don't rate it as an important stat.

Contrary to appearances I don't actually dislike Ryan Gardner. I wish him the best this weekend as I do whenever he plays for us. The problem I have, which is associated with the poor bloke rather than being his fault, is how he keeps getting selected in front of better performed team mates, when they are still fit and available for selection.
Garndner's role is not to rack up possessions. He is a negative defender - someone who is there to stop a forward from exerting influence and to kill a ball that might turn into a contested mark for the forwards. He does a pretty good job of that. He is not trying to be Jake Lever and should be judged on the quality of the negating role he does.
 

VogonProsthetnic

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Keaths mobility and kicking once he has the ball is pretty good. It’s the fumbling below the knees that’s his issue.

Gardiner doesn’t stuff up much, mainly because he doesn’t take many risks.

Agree I like Bruce more than both of them. He’s also got a lot more potential to grow into the role.

O’Brien is crap 1 on 1 - not much use in a big final. Remember the last quarter vs Port?
 

LittleG

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I think for the rest of the year it should play out as:

1 KPD - Jones
2 KPD - Keath, Bruce or Gardner (Playing a more lockdown role as all three are suspect ball users under pressure)
3 KPD - O’Brien, Busslinger or O’Donnell. O’Brien is playing that role today as the other may just not be ready for that role full time but we may see them there at certain points this season.

I hope to see Busslinger soon. His kicking and decision making is more like an intercept defender than a KPD. Really hoping he gradually improves his 1v1 until he is the alpha, The 1KPD. That is his potential but 3rd tall is where he can play at AFL level soon.

I Really didn’t understand why he dropped so far in his draft year. The potential for a 1KPD, while kicking like a 3rd tall; is not something you see much if at all.
 

bobs head soup

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Sep 14, 2015
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It can take some players longer than others. Liam Jones is a case in point. Didn’t say it hasn’t improved but it’s not where it needs to be for the AFL . It will get him through many games with his talent but it’s abo what he can do consistently week in week out
I'm confused. The entirety of your post #282 was that Khamis tank hasn't improved "He hasn't."

Half an hour later you're statng "didn't say it hasn't improved?"

Huh?
 

Foxman98

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May 25, 2018
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Garndner's role is not to rack up possessions. He is a negative defender - someone who is there to stop a forward from exerting influence and to kill a ball that might turn into a contested mark for the forwards. He does a pretty good job of that. He is not trying to be Jake Lever and should be judged on the quality of the negating role he does.
Old Proff must’ve thought Dale Morris was an awful footballer then with all of his spoiling and lack of disposals
 

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Golden_6

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I hope to see Busslinger soon. His kicking and decision making is more like an intercept defender than a KPD. Really hoping he gradually improves his 1v1 until he is the alpha, The 1KPD. That is his potential but 3rd tall is where he can play at AFL level soon.

I Really didn’t understand why he dropped so far in his draft year. The potential for a 1KPD, while kicking like a 3rd tall; is not something you see much if at all.
Maybe clubs have been scared off taking taller intercept defenders that are a little suspect defensively high in the draft? Grainger-Barrass is one that comes to mind recently.
 

Proffessor

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Jan 21, 2013
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Garndner's role is not to rack up possessions. He is a negative defender - someone who is there to stop a forward from exerting influence and to kill a ball that might turn into a contested mark for the forwards. He does a pretty good job of that. He is not trying to be Jake Lever and should be judged on the quality of the negating role he does.
Gardner seems to be like that guy at work who moves around a lot but never seems to be responsible for anything.

So supposedly now he is a negative defender, but one who rarely has to take responsibility for the big key forwards of the opposition.

Poor Liam Jones, he had to stop the big forwards and do all the intercepting and rebounding. It’s good thing he has Ryan to give him a chop out by taking responsibility for all that ineffectual running around business.
 
Oct 9, 2013
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I was at the game last week and Keath was terrible. Not sure what he looked like if it was on the TV but the entire group of people around me were pissed with two seperate incidents that cost us Carlton goals. No (to whomever asked me previously) I can’t time and date stamp the incidents as I was watching a game of footy at the time and didn’t look at my watch surprisingly enough! He was bad, really bad, and I’m stoked Bevo dropped him. Doesn’t mean he didn’t have some good moments as well but he is sorely out of touch. With Walker out this is an excellent week to try something else around Jones and Gardner and if TOB was ok in the 2ns then we are rewarding good form over bad and good luck to him 👍
I watched the game live with a Pies supporter. Even he commented that Keath looked like a zombie stuck in concrete out there.

Couldn't believe reading here after that some people thought he was OK or even had a good game.
 

Maverick Dog

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Oct 30, 2003
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Both Gardener and Keath were ok last week. I could not split them. Both made crucial errors. Personally I prefer someone who can play and interceptor role but I would have kept both in over TOB for a another week or 2. Thanks God we have Liam.
 

Bulldogs Legend

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 18, 2015
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I'm confused. The entirety of your post #282 was that Khamis tank hasn't improved "He hasn't."

Half an hour later you're statng "didn't say it hasn't improved?"

Huh?
Of course he has improved it but not to the standard required. Pretty simple really it didn’t require a forensic semantic analysis but hey whatever makes you feel better
 

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