Unofficial Preview Changes V GWS Rd 2, '18 - Scharenberg and Callum Brown in, Cox and Smith out

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Mark W

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He got a touch of the McGoughs.

A good average player, but I think we all forget how hard it is to be an ongoing top shelf player.
The commitment, resilience etc it’s just relentless.
Some have more of it than others.
Football is not an easy business to rise to the top and cement yourself there.
I don't think anyone is really arguing that Seedsman is going to be an ongoing top shelf player. But losing him does make a difference. Why?

Two of our best players cant kick: Treloar and Adams. By definition, role players are flawed, but in our team the one flaw we cant have is poor skill. Yet our team is full of role players who cant kick: Crisp, Langdon, Greenwood, Phillips, Smith. Thats why we have such poor conversion, we burn the footy. It is our biggest problem and has been for years

Seedsman has his flaws, he is very outside, and still quite inconsistent, but he has lovely skills. Trading him made no sense. He is the type of role player we needed to keep.
 

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loki04

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I don't think anyone is really arguing that Seedsman is going to be an ongoing top shelf player. But losing him does make a difference. Why?

Two of our best players cant kick: Treloar and Adams. By definition, role players are flawed, but in our team the one flaw we cant have is poor skill. Yet our team is full of role players who cant kick: Crisp, Langdon, Greenwood, Phillips, Smith. Thats why we have such poor conversion, we burn the footy. It is our biggest problem and has been for years

Seedsman has his flaws, he is very outside, and still quite inconsistent, but he has lovely skills. Trading him made no sense. He is the type of role player we needed to keep.
Pace as well.

That year we lost a fair bit of pace and have been trying to replace it since which is also why lacking KPP on list as we are having to fill other holes we created.
 
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I don't think anyone is really arguing that Seedsman is going to be an ongoing top shelf player. But losing him does make a difference. Why?

Two of our best players cant kick: Treloar and Adams. By definition, role players are flawed, but in our team the one flaw we cant have is poor skill. Yet our team is full of role players who cant kick: Crisp, Langdon, Greenwood, Phillips, Smith. Thats why we have such poor conversion, we burn the footy. It is our biggest problem and has been for years

Seedsman has his flaws, he is very outside, and still quite inconsistent, but he has lovely skills. Trading him made no sense. He is the type of role player we needed to keep.
Ok.
He just seems to be deemed this far better player jobs he’s left.
I somehow remember when he wore stripes and not hoops, he was bagged a lot.
 

Robroy22

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I'm a little perturbed by the "Our players can't kick" argument. Seems to me that to make a TAC cup side you have to be able to kick. To then get drafted you can of course kick.
The difference I see with our players is CONFIDENCE.
Richmond didn't suddenly become a great kicking side last year or the Doggies before. We weren't a great kicking side in 2010-11 either, but as the teams evolve, as players get used to winning and they believe they can do things....their kicking just looks better and better. The truly great kicks (Quinlan, Price, Rioli, Daicos)....they could kick it to a bloke sitting in the dressing room if they had to. The Hawks "are good kicks" because they hit targets (less and less though now under pressure) but those targets are in stipulated patterns and they trust that movement....so they look like good kicks.
Last night Adelaide looked like good kicks because they had targets to kick to. Most of Rory Sloane's work as an inside mid though was similar to ours...hack it out, get it forward.

Until our players have the confidence to RUN at (or through) opposition zones and until we have TARGETS that present on cue then we'll continue to "kick poorly" and it won't be all the kickers fault.
Confidence is fluid, it ebbs and flows within a team . We need better (stronger, more robust, more dynamic leadership) the time of the robot is over in the AFL.

Take the game on Pies, make your own luck, lead and they shall follow!

Ps...No I didn't put Bucks in the list of great kicks (nor Malcolm Blight) because as great a long kick as they both were, their short kicking was often erratic.
 

loki04

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I'm a little perturbed by the "Our players can't kick" argument. Seems to me that to make a TAC cup side you have to be able to kick. To then get drafted you can of course kick.
The difference I see with our players is CONFIDENCE.
Richmond didn't suddenly become a great kicking side last year or the Doggies before. We weren't a great kicking side in 2010-11 either, but as the teams evolve, as players get used to winning and they believe they can do things....their kicking just looks better and better. The truly great kicks (Quinlan, Price, Rioli, Daicos)....they could kick it to a bloke sitting in the dressing room if they had to. The Hawks "are good kicks" because they hit targets (less and less though now under pressure) but those targets are in stipulated patterns and they trust that movement....so they look like good kicks.
Last night Adelaide looked like good kicks because they had targets to kick to. Most of Rory Sloane's work as an inside mid though was similar to ours...hack it out, get it forward.

Until our players have the confidence to RUN at (or through) opposition zones and until we have TARGETS that present on cue then we'll continue to "kick poorly" and it won't be all the kickers fault.
Confidence is fluid, it ebbs and flows within a team . We need better (stronger, more robust, more dynamic leadership) the time of the robot is over in the AFL.

Take the game on Pies, make your own luck, lead and they shall follow!

Ps...No I didn't put Bucks in the list of great kicks (nor Malcolm Blight) because as great a long kick as they both were, their short kicking was often erratic.

No Buckleys "short" kicks were not often erratic and he often didn't kick short anyway as his long kicks were far more accurate and effective in being dangerous. He was the best field kick I have seen bar none.

But I agree somewhat with the rest of your post, of our poor kicking comes back to confidence and player movement ahead of the ball, but I don't think our players are "good" kicks naturally. Some players do infact make TAC lists withourt being a great kick due to other weapons they provide.

Judd, Swan and Treloar none of them were great kicks ok kicks but not great yet all offer uniqueness and pace that renders their lesser kicking to be still effective.

We just have too many who's flaw is kicking even if quite skilled in other areas of the game. Team was at 23% KE vs Hawks at one point and iirc finished at 43%. That is more then confidence and structural problem especially over a prolonged period.
 

Robroy22

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No Buckleys "short" kicks were not often erratic and he often didn't kick short anyway as his long kicks were far more accurate and effective in being dangerous. He was the best field kick I have seen bar none.

But I agree somewhat with the rest of your post, of our poor kicking comes back to confidence and player movement ahead of the ball, but I don't think our players are "good" kicks naturally. Some players do infact make TAC lists withourt being a great kick due to other weapons they provide.

Judd, Swan and Treloar none of them were great kicks ok kicks but not great yet all offer uniqueness and pace that renders their lesser kicking to be still effective.

We just have too many who's flaw is kicking even if quite skilled in other areas of the game. Team was at 23% KE vs Hawks at one point and iirc finished at 43%. That is more then confidence and structural problem especially over a prolonged period.


Just cos I think you'll know this Loki...which midfielder of the past say....decade, has the best DE?
 

loki04

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Just cos I think you'll know this Loki...which midfielder of the past say....decade, has the best DE?
TBH I don't care for DE stats mate and no I am not aware of what CD has rated as the most "efficient" user (denote the lack of use of the term effective ie Buckley).
It often notates a crabber or safety kicks, even Ablett jnr can be guilty of it, chip kicks 20m runs of for handball etc. Joel Bowden as a loose HB was the king of KE at the tigers, but what did those short kicks do for the team? held the ball up and the play.

Buckley was not a poor short or long field kick, I don't need stats to tell me this due to having eyes.

I remember Mike Sheehan trying to critique Buckley for not "following" up on his kicks, he then proceeded to show footage of 3 kicks by Buckley; 30m, 45m and a 55m kick all 3 hit the chest of the leading player, Buckleys retort was : "every kick hit the player on the tit, that's why". Bout sums this up.

I watched Buckleys whole career every game his ball use was second to none, only later with hamstring injuries did I notice his kicking somewhat drop off even then he was able to thread kicks to Daisy between 3 players, kick to rusling on the lead so he doesn't break stride shest height, spot pendles from in traffic with a 40m kick inside 50.... Ditto watched many games of all the best mids over the last 2 decades none compare.

EDIT PS: when the AFL get your (best kicking player) to make a video on how to kick a football during your younger playing days for auskick demonstrations, then after retirement get you to pioneer a draftee weighting kicking test then we can talk about who's a better kick then whom.

 
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barrackers

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During his last season in black and white Buckley said something along the lines of Seedsman needed to decide what sought of footballer he wanted to be. In hindsight it suggested commitment or off field issues. Whether that’s true or not Seedsman’s more the cream on top; a good player in a contending team, but one who often struggles in a bad side.
 

Horaceg

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Ok.
He just seems to be deemed this far better player jobs he’s left.
I somehow remember when he wore stripes and not hoops, he was bagged a lot.
Fumbled too much, set shots were ordinary for someone with above average disposal, inconsistent. I don’t miss him much, that said he’d be getting a game right now
 

Finnishpie

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I don't think anyone is really arguing that Seedsman is going to be an ongoing top shelf player. But losing him does make a difference. Why?

Two of our best players cant kick: Treloar and Adams. By definition, role players are flawed, but in our team the one flaw we cant have is poor skill. Yet our team is full of role players who cant kick: Crisp, Langdon, Greenwood, Phillips, Smith. Thats why we have such poor conversion, we burn the footy. It is our biggest problem and has been for years

Seedsman has his flaws, he is very outside, and still quite inconsistent, but he has lovely skills. Trading him made no sense. He is the type of role player we needed to keep.
This.
 

Robroy22

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TBH I don't care for DE stats mate and no I am not aware of what CD has rated as the most "efficient" user (denote the lack of use of the term effective ie Buckley).
It often notates a crabber or safety kicks, even Ablett jnr can be guilty of it, chip kicks 20m runs of for handball etc. Joel Bowden as a loose HB was the king of KE at the tigers, but what did those short kicks do for the team? held the ball up and the play.

Buckley was not a poor short or long field kick, I don't need stats to tell me this due to having eyes.

I remember Mike Sheehan trying to critique Buckley for not "following" up on his kicks, he then proceeded to show footage of 3 kicks by Buckley; 30m, 45m and a 55m kick all 3 hit the chest of the leading player, Buckleys retort was : "every kick hit the player on the tit, that's why". Bout sums this up.

I watched Buckleys whole career every game his ball use was second to none, only later with hamstring injuries did I notice his kicking somewhat drop off even then he was able to thread kicks to Daisy between 3 players, kick to rusling on the lead so he doesn't break stride shest height, spot pendles from in traffic with a 40m kick inside 50.... Ditto watched many games of all the best mids over the last 2 decades none compare.

EDIT PS: when the AFL get your (best kicking player) to make a video on how to kick a football during your younger playing days for auskick demonstrations, then after retirement get you to pioneer a draftee weighting kicking test then we can talk about who's a better kick then whom.





Hey Loki mate, not trying to say Bucks wasn't a great kick, he's on par with Barrot and Blight and co...
But he's no Barry Price! Or Thorald Merrett and don't even mention Daics!
 

loki04

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Hey Loki mate, not trying to say Bucks wasn't a great kick, he's on par with Barrot and Blight and co...
But he's no Barry Price! Or Thorald Merrett and don't even mention Daics!
Well I can't compare him to the Price or Merrett as I have never seen them play as I wasn't alive, and really even Daicos I have only seen replay vision (too young too remember his best as I was 7 in 1990) but I will say as good as Daics was with variety of kicks (accurately) Torp, punt, snap, checksides, etc and goal kicking, I'm not sure he had Buckley for overall field kicking but goal kicking and variety of kick yes definitely Daicos.

Imo Blight through the vision I've seen was not in Buckleys league even though I know he is old timers fav for kicking long.
 

Robroy22

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Well I can't compare him to the Price or Merrett as I have never seen them play as I wasn't alive, and really even Daicos I have only seen replay vision (too young too remember his best as I was 7 in 1990) but I will say as good as Daics was with variety of kicks (accurately) Torp, punt, snap, checksides, etc and goal kicking, I'm not sure he had Buckley for overall field kicking but goal kicking and variety of kick yes definitely Daicos.

Imo Blight through the vision I've seen was not in Buckleys league even though I know he is old timers fav for kicking long.

Lol@Old timers for kicking long!
Blight was a Brownlow medallist who came to VFL late! If he'd come earlier he may have won a couple more!
Played as a FF when he was really only midfield sized (bit like Ablett snr and Daicos)
A truly spectacular player Ablett snr but earlier! Trust me he was definitely in Buck's league!
 

Finnishpie

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Ok.
He just seems to be deemed this far better player jobs he’s left.
I somehow remember when he wore stripes and not hoops, he was bagged a lot.
I remember that too. But that’s the way down here. Players get bagged when they play for us, celebrated when they play for others. You’d think there was some bizarre hypnotic trance going on.
 
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