Changes Vs Adelaide

[lions27]

Is there any info around Beams shoulder? Or is it just Chinese whispers

 

[Cooties]

I don't think O'brien should be dropped as he has shown that he can play well enough at AFL standard and although he wasn't fantastic last night he still laid 10 tackles, four more than the next bloke. Keep him in until someone else decides to lift. We aren't exactly flush with inside mids ATM.

If ZOB is playing next week I'll keep a close eye on him at the game and try and figure out why a lot of people seemingly want him dropped. In a team that is obviously (and frustratingly) lacking in intensity I wouldn't be rushing to drop a guy that's topped the tackle count for the team two weeks in a row (ignoring the bye)

 

[BrizzyBandit]

If ZOB is playing next week I'll keep a close eye on him at the game and try and figure out why a lot of people seemingly want him dropped. In a team that is obviously (and frustratingly) lacking in intensity I wouldn't be rushing to drop a guy that's topped the tackle count for the team two weeks in a row (ignoring the bye)

I agree his intensity is first rate. But his skills with the ball in hand are really low.... Maybe if he has more time to adjust to the pace of AFL then he might improve..... Maybe one more week.

 

[jackess]

If ZOB is playing next week I'll keep a close eye on him at the game and try and figure out why a lot of people seemingly want him dropped. In a team that is obviously (and frustratingly) lacking in intensity I wouldn't be rushing to drop a guy that's topped the tackle count for the team two weeks in a row (ignoring the bye)

I think his tackling stats were partially because he was second to the footy. Would rather he was getting to the footy first instead of tackling. It was a poor game but he wasn't alone.

 

[Cooties]

I think his tackling stats were partially because he was second to the footy. Would rather he was getting to the footy first instead of tackling. It was a poor game but he wasn't alone.

The whole team was always second to the ball, they looked tired and bored from the first bounce. But I'll watch him against the Crows (if he gets the chance) and see what happens... who knows, afl.com.au do need a replacement for Paparone as whipping boy after all

 

[Eons]

Leuey, ZOB and Beasley out. Leuey offers nothing up forward, ZOB will not make it as an AFL player, Beasley is not ready, so many times at the game he was absolutely cooked, could barely run.

Andrews, Mayes and Harwood to come in.

 

[Ironmonger]

Leuey, ZOB and Beasley out. Leuey offers nothing up forward, ZOB will not make it as an AFL player, Beasley is not ready, so many times at the game he was absolutely cooked, could barely run.

Andrews, Mayes and Harwood to come in.

I'd drop Leuey at the earliest opportunity as well, unfortunately. But I can't see anyone who can help out in the ruck until West or maybe Merrett are available.

 

[John_Proctor]

At the game last night, in the area I was seated, most of the talk or better said; "concerns" centered around the way we develop our young ...

I think this is a very interesting topic of conversation. Over the last 10 years how many players have we had come into the club have a great first season or two and then not 'go on with it'.

Banfield kicked 51 (and 44 behinds) in 41 games over his first two seasons and then just dissapeared off the map.

Karnezis looked like a superstar in his first 10 games and hasn't been seen since (admittdely Collingwood hasn't been able to develop him either)

Mayes was awesome in his first season and has fallen away in his second and now third years

even further back Redden and Rich have never 'stepped up' from being very good players in their first 50 games to being all-Australian level players as that early form indicated might be possible.

we've had past rookie success but generally our rookies now are unheard of and often get mentioned as 'not developing as we'd like' or similar... Bourke and Beasley are only getting a game because about 8 talls on the senior list ahead of them are injured.

Are we getting the best out of the players on our list?

 

[Eons]

I'd drop Leuey at the earliest opportunity as well, unfortunately. But I can't see anyone who can help out in the ruck until West or maybe Merrett are available.

I really don't care anymore, if I have to watch one more game with Leuey up forward it's going to cost me over $1500 to get a new TV. FFS if Leppa is going to keep playing Leuey let him ruck and move Martin forward, baffles me why he persists with the current system when it's clearly not working.

If we were winning games I wouldn't care, it's not working and needs to be changed. Isn't the definition of insanity trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

 

[Eons]

I think this is a very interesting topic of conversation. Over the last 10 years how many players have we had come into the club have a great first season or two and then not 'go on with it'.

Banfield kicked 51 (and 44 behinds) in 41 games over his first two seasons and then just dissapeared off the map.

Karnezis looked like a superstar in his first 10 games and hasn't been seen since (admittdely Collingwood hasn't been able to develop him either)

Mayes was awesome in his first season and has fallen away in his second and now third years

even further back Redden and Rich have never 'stepped up' from being very good players in their first 50 games to being all-Australian level players as that early form indicated might be possible.

we've had past rookie success but generally our rookies now are unheard of and often get mentioned as 'not developing as we'd like' or similar... Bourke and Beasley are only getting a game because about 8 talls on the senior list ahead of them are injured.

Are we getting the best out of the players on our list?

Or maybe we pick players that are already close to their 'best' when we draft them. I don't know, needs to be looked at in more detail by the club. Obviously not having much money we can't afford the development coaches etc. that most clubs have which would play it's part too.

 

[Ironmonger]

I think this is a very interesting topic of conversation. Over the last 10 years how many players have we had come into the club have a great first season or two and then not 'go on with it'.

Banfield kicked 51 (and 44 behinds) in 41 games over his first two seasons and then just dissapeared off the map.

Karnezis looked like a superstar in his first 10 games and hasn't been seen since (admittdely Collingwood hasn't been able to develop him either)

Mayes was awesome in his first season and has fallen away in his second and now third years

even further back Redden and Rich have never 'stepped up' from being very good players in their first 50 games to being all-Australian level players as that early form indicated might be possible.

we've had past rookie success but generally our rookies now are unheard of and often get mentioned as 'not developing as we'd like' or similar... Bourke and Beasley are only getting a game because about 8 talls on the senior list ahead of them are injured.

Are we getting the best out of the players on our list?

You mention Karnezis, but out of the players who've left recently his career trajectory is very much the exception.

Docherty, Yeo, Longer, Polec and Crisp have all noticeably 'stepped up' since they left us. When you contrast it with the other players you've mentioned, it doesn't help us to make a case that re-signing with the Brisbane Lions is a good career move.

The odd thing though is that all of those players, with the possible exception of Longer, seemed to instantly become better footballers. They all played for their new clubs more or less as soon as they were available and seemed significantly improved straight away. It's not like they spent a long time honing their game in the reserves.

What is it about our club that seems to hold players back?

 

[Eons]

You mention Karnezis, but out of the players who've left recently his career trajectory is very much the exception.

Docherty, Yeo, Longer, Polec and Crisp have all noticeably 'stepped up' since they left us. When you contrast it with the other players you've mentioned, it doesn't help us to make a case that re-signing with the Brisbane Lions is a good career move.

The odd thing though is that all of those players, with the possible exception of Longer, seemed to instantly become better footballers. They all played for their new clubs more or less as soon as they were available and seemed significantly improved straight away. It's not like they spent a long time honing their game in the reserves.

What is it about our club that seems to hold players back?

Having family around them, being happier, knowing that the club they are at now is where they want to play out their career and is not just a destination along the way like Brisbane was. They all showed a bit, and they are in their 3 and fourth years now so they are at a stage of their careeers where they start to show more consistency and become more comfortable at senior level.

 

[Ironmonger]

Having family around them, being happier, knowing that the club they are at now is where they want to play out their career and is not just a destination along the way like Brisbane was. They all showed a bit, and they are in their 3 and fourth years now so they are at a stage of their careeers where they start to show more consistency and become more comfortable at senior level.

You might be right about being in a more comfortable location. Players like Dylan Roberton, Dom Tyson and Taylor Adams seemed to do very well as soon as they moved.

But then not so much Kristian Jaksch, Tom Boyd and Ben Jacobs.

I think the point here is that the players who've left have generally transitioned into that 3rd/4th year stage a lot more successfully than the players who've stayed, as a whole.

 

[Eons]

You might be right about being in a more comfortable location. Players like Dylan Roberton, Dom Tyson and Taylor Adams seemed to do very well as soon as they moved.

But then not so much Kristian Jaksch, Tom Boyd and Ben Jacobs.

I think the point here is that the players who've left have generally transitioned into that 3rd/4th year stage a lot more successfully than the players who've stayed, as a whole.

Never rated Jaksch so personally wasn't expecting him to be good, Boyd is a KPP in his second year, he will take time to develop, what he's done for the Bulldogs structure can't be underestimated. Although he hasn't kicked a lot of goals, he rarely gets outmarked and brings the ball to ground, never rated Jacobs anymore than a 20-30 player on a decent list.

The first 3 players you mentioned had all show something at AFL level previous to moving, don't think Boyd should be lumped in with Jaksch and Jacobs.

Back to your point, there could be many reasons why some players haven't come on which I listed above. The problem is our players leave when they're young so we never get a chance to see the finished product in it's fully developed stage to speculate about our development.

 

[Fatcat08]

You mention Karnezis, but out of the players who've left recently his career trajectory is very much the exception.

Docherty, Yeo, Longer, Polec and Crisp have all noticeably 'stepped up' since they left us. When you contrast it with the other players you've mentioned, it doesn't help us to make a case that re-signing with the Brisbane Lions is a good career move.

The odd thing though is that all of those players, with the possible exception of Longer, seemed to instantly become better footballers. They all played for their new clubs more or less as soon as they were available and seemed significantly improved straight away. It's not like they spent a long time honing their game in the reserves.

What is it about our club that seems to hold players back?

Personally I don't think Longer has really stepped up much at all outside of being a season or two older.

As for the others I don't see any of them breaking out over what I would have expected to see had they stayed. Crisp showed signs towards the end of last season that he was going to have a good year this year. Polec finally got his body right and also benefited from being in a side that dominated. Yeo I thought actually went backwards a bit last season but has been much better this year. Given how he was tracking in his last season with us I would have thought he would have had similar impact with us. Docherty has been much in line with gradual improvement over the last few seasons. He was tracking much the same way with us. I think he would have had a much bigger role in the last two seasons had he stayed and probably would have done similarly.

There are a few concerns with players on our list. Rich is one i'm giving some latitude too given he's coming off an ACL. He's had a few ordinary games but also some good ones. Redden is concerning me a bit, although i do wonder if the fact he came in and played straight away to a reasonable level after no-one ever hearing about him raised expectations a bit higher than he was realistically able to reach. Still I think the worry comes from seeing games where he's very good, followed but a bunch of mediocre ones. Maybe his base level is a bit lower than we think and those games where he's very good are more outliers. Still I think as we improve he will be a cog in there, just not a main one.

Mayes is the other who's concerning. he was always going to appear quieter in his second year due to him actually having to play some defensive football, as opposed to the first season where he was just able to run where he wanted to without much defensive accountability. However I expected a lot more from him this season. FWIW I don't think our gameplan (or what appears to be our gameplan) of chipping it round and then bombing it long to crentre wing contests does much for a winger/half forward. Still he's certainly below par so far.

I still think we're seeing the after affects of having bugger all staff on board over the last 5-6 seasons but the lack of visible turnaround is certainly concerning. The counter to that are the players we are developing well. Clarke has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few seasons, Harwood has certainly developed quite a bit better than I had anticipated early in his career and Green is realistically one of the better small forwards in the comp who in a better team with a better forward line would most likely have about double the goals.

Robertson has really come on this year as well development wise, and we can't ignore the development of Hanley from a guy who had never played the game to a genuine star. You could also put Rockliff into that group as well, clearly his development has been fantastic. Finally Paparone, who has developed out of this world in the last few seasons. Actually thinking about it you could put Martin in there. Showed glimpses when at Melb but was also very ordinary, but has developed very well since being at the lions, once he got his body right.

People can't sit there and put up a few names and say they we haven't developed them without acknowledging the ones we have developed well.

 

[John_Proctor]

I picked Karnezis of the GH5 because I thought he was the one where perhaps we failed him the most.

as I said he jumped into the team and looked great his first 5 games (season 1). then looked average his next 5 with us (in season 2). then barely played with us in his last (third) season. He liked us enough after 1 season to sign on for a third year - what happened after that in terms of development that hindered his development on the field which ultimately in my opinion would have been a strong influence in him deciding to move home?

Polec was constantly injured (and clearly sooky) while at Brisbane and the other 3 left after 2 seasons and so had the expected rise going into a third season.

Its a hard thing to say - perhaps we have picked players who have 'peaked' and are just always going to be 'good average players' where as others pick on potential and have more busts but also more stars? Even looking back at our crop from last year Taylor and Gardiner were drifters in the draft because they were considered to have reached the peak of their potential. They came in and played great last year - time will tell if they develop into the next Adcock and Merritt (good average 200 gamers but not top 10 players at a premiership club) or the next Luke Power and Gibson (not greats but one or two time all australians over 200+ game careers).

I'd make a counter argument with Justin Clarke to be honest. I know he is taking on more responsibility and our defence is coming under extreme pressure this year but equally he has now played 50 games and is comparable in age/experience to say Daniel Talia, McDonald at Melbourne, McGovern at West Coast as young key defenders. Is he doing better in 1 on 1's than he was in his first season? Does he play on more naturally than in his first 10 games? Does he influence contests as a third man up more now than before?


btw. sorry to have sidelined the thread a touch.

 

[Football Pope]

Yeah probably better if it had it's own thread....or moved to a topic better suited...Leave it up to the mods to decide..

 

[Caiphus]

Last season before Redden's injury many of us were saying he was showing signs of stepping up another level. He had developed a left foot out of nowhere and was getting really good tackle and clearance numbers.

I've thought he has been down a bit this year but again it was after a serious injury and Leppa appears to have changed his role. He's just played 1 game after another few weeks off without coming through the twos but to make calls now that he has stopped improving or even gone backwards are a bit premature.

 

[BrizzyBandit]

Last season before Redden's injury many of us were saying he was showing signs of stepping up another level. He had developed a left foot out of nowhere and was getting really good tackle and clearance numbers.

I've thought he has been down a bit this year but again it was after a serious injury and Leppa appears to have changed his role. He's just played 1 game after another few weeks off without coming through the twos but to make calls now that he has stopped improving or even gone backwards are a bit premature.

Maybe you're right. I might have been a bit hard on him..... I acknowledge I can get emotional.

 

[carnthemlions]

I picked Karnezis of the GH5 because I thought he was the one where perhaps we failed him the most.

as I said he jumped into the team and looked great his first 5 games (season 1). then looked average his next 5 with us (in season 2). then barely played with us in his last (third) season. He liked us enough after 1 season to sign on for a third year - what happened after that in terms of development that hindered his development on the field which ultimately in my opinion would have been a strong influence in him deciding to move home?

Polec was constantly injured (and clearly sooky) while at Brisbane and the other 3 left after 2 seasons and so had the expected rise going into a third season.

Its a hard thing to say - perhaps we have picked players who have 'peaked' and are just always going to be 'good average players' where as others pick on potential and have more busts but also more stars? Even looking back at our crop from last year Taylor and Gardiner were drifters in the draft because they were considered to have reached the peak of their potential. They came in and played great last year - time will tell if they develop into the next Adcock and Merritt (good average 200 gamers but not top 10 players at a premiership club) or the next Luke Power and Gibson (not greats but one or two time all australians over 200+ game careers).

I'd make a counter argument with Justin Clarke to be honest. I know he is taking on more responsibility and our defence is coming under extreme pressure this year but equally he has now played 50 games and is comparable in age/experience to say Daniel Talia, McDonald at Melbourne, McGovern at West Coast as young key defenders. Is he doing better in 1 on 1's than he was in his first season? Does he play on more naturally than in his first 10 games? Does he influence contests as a third man up more now than before?


btw. sorry to have sidelined the thread a touch.

I don't agree at all. Karnezis hasn't done anything at Collingwood that he didn't do here. Plays well at a lower level, but just can't put it together at AFL level. I doubt the biggest issue with his game(no defensive side) has improved much. Only he can improve that.

Players like Taylor and Gardiner have already done more than you'd expect from their draft positions. You're reading way too much into that fact that they haven't contributed as much this year(Gardiner hasn't been fit, Taylor's actually getting a lot more of the ball but isn't doing as much with it). I'd say the fact that we've picked guys like Paparone, Cutler, Robertson and McStay recently would disprove your theory anyway. All were considered to be very raw at the time.

Has Clarke improved as a player? You'd have to be blind to suggest otherwise. Talia is a freak, he's come in and been one of the better shutdown key defenders in the comp almost from day one. That doesn't happen very often. McDonald and McGovern are more like the kind of player Andrews projects as- intercept marking defenders who can get 20 touches a game. For a speculative rookie pick, Clarke's been great. I don't think anyone would dispute that.

Personally I don't think Longer has really stepped up much at all outside of being a season or two older.

As for the others I don't see any of them breaking out over what I would have expected to see had they stayed. Crisp showed signs towards the end of last season that he was going to have a good year this year. Polec finally got his body right and also benefited from being in a side that dominated. Yeo I thought actually went backwards a bit last season but has been much better this year. Given how he was tracking in his last season with us I would have thought he would have had similar impact with us. Docherty has been much in line with gradual improvement over the last few seasons. He was tracking much the same way with us. I think he would have had a much bigger role in the last two seasons had he stayed and probably would have done similarly.

There are a few concerns with players on our list. Rich is one i'm giving some latitude too given he's coming off an ACL. He's had a few ordinary games but also some good ones. Redden is concerning me a bit, although i do wonder if the fact he came in and played straight away to a reasonable level after no-one ever hearing about him raised expectations a bit higher than he was realistically able to reach. Still I think the worry comes from seeing games where he's very good, followed but a bunch of mediocre ones. Maybe his base level is a bit lower than we think and those games where he's very good are more outliers. Still I think as we improve he will be a cog in there, just not a main one.

Mayes is the other who's concerning. he was always going to appear quieter in his second year due to him actually having to play some defensive football, as opposed to the first season where he was just able to run where he wanted to without much defensive accountability. However I expected a lot more from him this season. FWIW I don't think our gameplan (or what appears to be our gameplan) of chipping it round and then bombing it long to crentre wing contests does much for a winger/half forward. Still he's certainly below par so far.

I still think we're seeing the after affects of having bugger all staff on board over the last 5-6 seasons but the lack of visible turnaround is certainly concerning. The counter to that are the players we are developing well. Clarke has come on in leaps and bounds in the last few seasons, Harwood has certainly developed quite a bit better than I had anticipated early in his career and Green is realistically one of the better small forwards in the comp who in a better team with a better forward line would most likely have about double the goals.

Robertson has really come on this year as well development wise, and we can't ignore the development of Hanley from a guy who had never played the game to a genuine star. You could also put Rockliff into that group as well, clearly his development has been fantastic. Finally Paparone, who has developed out of this world in the last few seasons. Actually thinking about it you could put Martin in there. Showed glimpses when at Melb but was also very ordinary, but has developed very well since being at the lions, once he got his body right.

People can't sit there and put up a few names and say they we haven't developed them without acknowledging the ones we have developed well.

Longer really is a bit of a plodder at the moment- hasn't learnt any new tricks since leaving.

The disappointing thing with Mayes' form form me is that he actually started to play some pretty good football in his half back role toward the end of the season after a long period of being fairly quiet. He seemed to have finally learnt how to get the balance right between defence and attack in that position. Unfortunately he wasn't able to continue that momentum into this season- did another role change confuse him again? I'm still hopeful that he can translate the skills he's learnt and become more of a complete player, but it may take a bit longer than you might've thought not so long ago.

 

[John_Proctor]

Won't drag this on too long, agree clarke is brilliant as a speculative rookie pick and is being asked to hold together an inexperienced backline is season but I would say is I was more excited by his prospects after 10 afl games then I am now after 50 games.

 

[BrizzyBandit]

Won't drag this on too long, agree clarke is brilliant as a speculative rookie pick and is being asked to hold together an inexperienced backline is season but I would say is I was more excited by his prospects after 10 afl games then I am now after 50 games.

Clarke is a great emerging player!!!

After 10 games he had players like Patfull, Merrett and Goose all playing great footy around him. Hundreds and hundreds of games worth of experience making his life easier.

Now he has the likes of Beasley, Bourke & Gardiner who total about 30 games worth of experience.

Strange call by you JP

 

[luthor]

Clarke is a great emerging player!!!

After 10 games he had players like Patfull, Merrett and Goose all playing great footy around him. Hundreds and hundreds of games worth of experience making his life easier.

Now he has the likes of Beasley, Bourke & Gardiner who total about 30 games worth of experience.

Strange call by you JP

Agree.

Clarke has become by default our "#1" defender virtually by default.

Hasn't even had the backup of Gadiner (equally as raw) for the greater part of this season.

He's class .

 

[POBT]

Clarke has started to mark the footy more. That's a progression in his game that I was not expecting.

 

[Fatcat08]

Clarke has started to mark the footy more. That's a progression in his game that I was not expecting.

Noticed that this year too, could be a bit of a byproduct of seeing andrews snatch them out of the air so often as well as working on it/having more confidence to do it. Still going the punch a bit too much on occasions but the progression is nice to see.

I'd make a counter argument with Justin Clarke to be honest. I know he is taking on more responsibility and our defence is coming under extreme pressure this year but equally he has now played 50 games and is comparable in age/experience to say Daniel Talia, McDonald at Melbourne, McGovern at West Coast as young key defenders. Is he doing better in 1 on 1's than he was in his first season? Does he play on more naturally than in his first 10 games? Does he influence contests as a third man up more now than before?

Just a note, Talia has been in the AFL system for 5 years now and has a full season more worth of games than Clarke. Yes I'm aware he made AA last year, but he was also a pick 13 too. McDonald has one year more on a list and again a whole full season more than Clarke. Before this year I would have had Clarke well ahead of him development wise. McGovern is older but has less experience, his season so far has been one out the bag and credit to him.

I definitely think Clarke is doing much better in 1 on 1's than his first and second season. Just keep in mind that he gets the number 1 forward every week this year, unlike in the past. As mentioned above he's certainly marking the ball a lot more this year which has progressed well and his kicking has come a long way. As far as 3rd man up given he's taking the number 1 forward he doesn't really get a lot of chances to do this . Gameplan wise that would be the responsibility of paps/gardiner/bourke which shows in the numbers.

I'm not saying he's the finished product, far from it, but as a Rookie draft picked KPD midway through his 4th season who has come from playing only bush footy, working in the family farm and being one of the best students in South Australia for his year, his development IMO has been exceptional, and our staff deserve some credit for that.