Opinion Changes vs Geelong

[Pugz89]

Thoughts on playing Sweet and English, but telling Sweet as soon as he takes the centre bounce, he pushes into defence to block up the Cats' forward line, which allows English to go 100% forward whenever he isn't in the ruck.

 

[Golden_6]

We don’t want Cordy or a tired English trying to ruck against Hawkins deep in their forward line. In fact I don’t want Cordy rucking at all- check out what happened when Witt’s went against Cordy late in the quarters v Gold Coast.

I’d actually be comfortable with Keath rucking in defensive 50 when Hawkins is doing his thing. All he makes it is a strength contest and Hawkins would ragdoll anyone else we attempted to put there. Let Keath just try and halve the contest.

 

[ScottyDogg]

I’d actually be comfortable with Keath rucking in defensive 50 when Hawkins is doing his thing. All he makes it is a strength contest and Hawkins would ragdoll anyone else we attempted to put there. Let Keath just try and halve the contest.

You think he is less likely to rag doll Keath than Sweet?

 

[Foxman98]

You think he is less likely to rag doll Keath than Sweet?

He attended 16% of their ruck contests on the weekend which is an increase on his usual output due to Stanley being out. He had no hit outs to advantage and just needs someone to body him you're wasting a whole position in the 22 for something that doesn't regularly happen and hasn't been that effective this year

 

[Del165892]

You think he is less likely to rag doll Keath than Sweet?

I think that the difference between those two would be negligible.

 

[Del165892]

The extraordinary lengths the Cult of Sweet will go to, and the mental gymnastics they will perform to justify his selection is astonishing.

 

[Foxman98]

The extraordinary lengths the Cult of Sweet will go to, and the mental gymnastics they will perform to justify his selection is astonishing.

You'd think we were talking about prime Nic Nat here wouldn't you? The bloke is a serviceable back up who offers average tap work and thats it

 

[Foxman98]

Can you give some specific examples of plays when they ran off Sweet? The big guy had 14 pressure acts, only Macrae, Williams, Libba, Bont and McComb had more.

Not convinced he's bad defensively and West Coast ran all over him. The pressure rating of our entire team was considered average which suggests our entire team let West Coast out too easily.

There was a point we were kicking it to the right of screen he had 15m on his opponent running towards goal they kicked it out in front of him and his opponent still got there first he didn't lay a tackle they got the ball inside 50 soon after, would've been one of his pressure acts. Pressure acts are a good statistic for small forwards not really ideal for tall's as the pressure isn't as intense due to the fact he has the turning circle of the titanic and isn't very nimble

 

[Libba39]

The extraordinary lengths the Cult of Sweet will go to, and the mental gymnastics they will perform to justify his selection is astonishing.

Haha yes.....but....

If Sweet goes out this week who is the relief ruck???

Also, is it just pure coincidence that English, after having injury and flu, plays one of his best ever games last week with Sweet in the side?

I know wet toast are crappola but....

 

[Foxman98]

Haha yes.....but....

If Sweet goes out this week who is the relief ruck???

Also, is it just pure coincidence that English, after having injury and flu, plays one of his best ever games last week with Sweet in the side?

I know wet toast are crappola but....

Buku or Schache if he comes in, will be for 10-15% at worst.

English season average is 22.5 disposals*, 4.3 inside 50's*, 10.7 contested possessions*, 6.2 clearances*, 23 hit-outs, 0.7 goals, 8.2 score involvements*, 6.5 marks* (all the one's with a * are elite for a ruckman)

Not sure you've noticed but English was having a good year before Sweet came in and kept on doing what he was doing to start the year

 

[doggiesin08]

There was a point we were kicking it to the right of screen he had 15m on his opponent running towards goal they kicked it out in front of him and his opponent still got there first he didn't lay a tackle they got the ball inside 50 soon after, would've been one of his pressure acts. Pressure acts are a good statistic for small forwards not really ideal for tall's as the pressure isn't as intense due to the fact he has the turning circle of the titanic and isn't very nimble

There was another where English got the centre clearance and banged it on the boot forward only for Sweets man to read it better and end up taking an uncontested intercept mark. It was 5 seconds that highlighted why we want English in the ruck and not forward and why Sweet hasn’t been getting games.

 

[Golden_6]

You think he is less likely to rag doll Keath than Sweet?

To be honest, yes I think he is less likely to ragdoll Keath than Sweet. Hawkins doesn't play it like a normal ruck contest, it's more a defensive 1 v 1 which Keath is more likely to succeed in. Keep in mind I'm purely talking about defensive 50 stoppages.

 

[doggies ftw]

The extraordinary lengths the Cult of Sweet will go to, and the mental gymnastics they will perform to justify his selection is astonishing.

Cult of Sweet

Everyone here knows what Sweet is, a very average back up ruckman at best - no body thinks he’s a star. He’s irrelevant to the argument, playing one ruck has been a major detriment to our team for years and we perform better as soon as there’s two in the team. It’s that simple. We win the midfield battle we generally win we lose we almost always lose - 2 rucks gives us the best chance of doing that.

5 touches from either Sweet, Cordy, Schache whoever in a forward role - genuinely irrelevant to our success. Doesn’t make a difference if those blokes don’t touch the ball. To be honest we’d probably be better off if Cordy & Sweet didn’t touch the ball. It’s just that clear the benefit to the team from having a ruckman take the ruck 100% of the time - we have a small and mobile enough team that we can carry a spud tall - we do it every single week, with Sweet at least we actually get some kind of benefit to the team even if it is small.

I’m not sure how many games we have to watch us struggle in because our midfield is on the back foot before we realise this it’s ****ing mind blowing.

No one rates Sweet, but **** we’ve put ourselves in the position that he is now the only option we have so he plays. Too bad he’s keeping Lobb, Jackson & Marshall out of the side so needs to be compared to their impact around the ground

 

[Foxman98]

No one rates Sweet, but duck we’ve put ourselves in the position that he is now the only option we have so he plays. Too bad he’s keeping Lobb, Jackson & Marshall out of the side so needs to be compared to their impact around the ground

We played 2 rucks in the Grand Final and got absolutely spanked in the midfield and clearances. Think you're still missing the part where out midfield is top 3 for clearances this season whilst playing 1 ruck most of the time. Our losses and poor games have come when our midfield is beaten in the contested possession game which Bevo stated after the Carlton loss you are so fascinated with which we actually got on top of in the 2nd half when English was running all over Pittonet. Cordy and Schache aren't superstar forwards no but they make their defender more accountable and lead to dangerous positions more then Sweet as well as lay blocks for Naughton. No the players Sweet is keeping out of the side aren't superstars but once again you are naming versatile back up rucks which Sweet isn't, if you're going to keep coming up with a comparable can you please go with the sides playing a 2nd ruck who is average at hitouts and offers little else (North with Xerri)

 

[Norm De Guerre]

Haha yes.....but....

If Sweet goes out this week who is the relief ruck???

Also, is it just pure coincidence that English, after having injury and flu, plays one of his best ever games last week with Sweet in the side?

I know wet toast are crappola but....

I think your last line is the correct answer. Their rucks consisted of a plodder who wouldnt be on anybody here's radar if it weren't for the anomaly of having the same name as one of our players. Then there was the kid who looked even rawer than Tim English did when he'd debuted 5 years ago.

It was the perfect opportunity for him to ease his way back into the game knowing he wouldnt be as physically taxed as he typically is against the games elite ruckman. I suspect that the MC knew all of this and set him for a return in this game specifically. Knowing full well that the gulf between English, Williams and Callum Jamieson was as wide as the one between my ears.

I really cant see how any of Sweet, Cordy or Schache being in the side would've had any baring on the result or let alone on English's game.

That game against a bunch of deflated witches hats was destined to be as easy a live kill as we will see all season. I cannot see how it made the issue of whether or not we carry a second ruck like Sweet for the rest of the season any clearer at all. As for this week unless we intend to have English fold back into the forward line as a way of making Stewart accountable. I cant see what role Sweet would play especially if he's expected to go with the athleticism of Blicavs for extended periods of the game.

I reckon we'll revert to type and play one ruck this week.

 

[Dog 36]

Buku or Schache if he comes in, will be for 10-15% at worst.

English season average is 22.5 disposals*, 4.3 inside 50's*, 10.7 contested possessions*, 6.2 clearances*, 23 hit-outs, 0.7 goals, 8.2 score involvements*, 6.5 marks* (all the one's with a * are elite for a ruckman)

Not sure you've noticed but English was having a good year before Sweet came in and kept on doing what he was doing to start the year

As you say

Sweet vs Gold Coast was spanked by Witts who was GC best player by a mile

Sweet vs WC was responsible for WC going coast to coast etc etc.

We have understood you prefer him out of the side but sometimes it feels he is on a hiding to nothing with some.

He has played 8 games and we signed him up for 2 years so lets wait.

 

[Foxman98]

As you say

Sweet vs Gold Coast was spanked by Witts who was GC best player by a mile

Sweet vs WC was responsible for WC going coast to coast etc etc.

We have understood you prefer him out of the side but sometimes it feels he is on a hiding to nothing with some.

He has played 8 games and we signed him up for 2 years so lets wait.

Not really sure the point you're trying to make here? Yes Witts killed him just because we didn't expect much doesn't mean he didn't, Yes his opponets worked off him all game last week as he has no forward craft/speed/agility, Yes we panicked and made a poor list decision offering him 2 years. He is perfectly fine as a stock standard back up but when English is fit he offers very little to the side.

 

[doggiesin08]

Cult of Sweet

Everyone here knows what Sweet is, a very average back up ruckman at best - no body thinks he’s a star. He’s irrelevant to the argument. Talk as much shit directly out of your arseh*le as you want about correlation & coincidence - anyone with half a brain can see that playing one ruck has been a major detriment to our team for years and we perform better as soon as there’s two in the team. It’s that simple. We win the midfield battle we generally win we lose we almost always lose - 2 rucks gives us the best chance of doing that.

5 touches from either Sweet, Cordy, Schache whoever in a forward role - genuinely irrelevant to our success. Doesn’t make a difference if those blokes don’t touch the ball. To be honest we’d probably be better off if Cordy & Sweet didn’t touch the ball. It’s just that clear the benefit to the team from having a ruckman take the ruck 100% of the time - we have a small and mobile enough team that we can carry a spud tall - we do it every single week, with Sweet at least we actually get some kind of benefit to the team even if it is small.

I’m not sure how many games we have to watch us struggle in because our midfield is on the back foot before we realise this it’s ******* mind blowing.

No one rates Sweet, but duck we’ve put ourselves in the position that he is now the only option we have so he plays. Too bad he’s keeping Lobb, Jackson & Marshall out of the side so needs to be compared to their impact around the ground

Sweet is not “very average” he is very much below average even if limited to “backups”. There are not nearly as many rucks playing AFL who are worse than him than there are better than him (although WCE may have played 2 who are worse).

 

[Doggy]

Flog Rohan is back as is Stanley

They might even leave Neale in so they'd be going in quite tall. The old "stretch the dogs" thing.

Hannah likely to return a week or 2 after the bye same as Bruce and Maclean so assume all are VFL bount

 

[Foxman98]

Sweet is not “very average” he is very much below average even if limited to “backups”. There are not nearly as many rucks playing AFL who are worse than him than there are better than him (although WCE may have played 2 who are worse).

The problem is that there are Good Rucks and there are poor Rucks. Then there's fifty feet of crap, and then there's Sweet

 

[Ash1337]

Don't care if Sweet BOG average outside the ruck but having English as a sole ruck hampers the dogs game plan and allows teams to exploit them. English rucking solo means he cant use his height around the ground taking contested marks and plugging holes. He gets more body on him and limits his mobility. Another ruck capable of needing a body like Martin or Sweet frees up English more and creates headaches for the opposition. He pulls a defender away when he rests forward and the opposing ruck cant get out and over the likes of Cordy/Schache/etc.

 

[hutchy31]

I don't think I'm in any "Sweet must play" or any cult-like group that would advocate for 2 rucks no matter what, but my 2c would be that Sweet should get a run against some good teams as well as middling/bad teams for the following reasons:

• It's been a relative weakness in our structure and list for a number of years, at least imo. No matter what happened in the off-season, if we only have three rucks on the list and Martin looks close to retirement, maybe we should know what we have at the top level from the only other ruck we have beside English.
• English needed time to develop and was allowed to do so in the ones, maybe Sweet - although he's not a first round draft pick, isn't that young and doesn't have the obvious attributes around the ground - should be afforded at least a semblance of an opportunity to do so. Particularly as he's a tall and they don't necessarily have similar arcs of improvement.
• Carrying a second or third forward that barely contributes is something we've basically done all year. Might as well have someone who can lighten English's load in the ruck.

However, I don't think there'll end up being an enormous difference in performance by the team if Sweet plays v Khamis v JUH v Cordy or even Schache. Each one brings their own issues and I don't think they'll get enough ball to be the difference maker(s) anyway.

Ultimately it's more of a list management issue and less of a team selection one, at least imo. There's a number of teams in the top half of the ladder who play two recognised rucks most weeks, and while that's not necessarily the main cause of them being in those positions it's worth considering. I'd personally be surprised and disappointed if the club didn't actually get someone to fill that second ruck/KPF position in the offseason, unless they were really strong on Sweet and/or Darcy being competent in the short-term.

 

[Foxman98]

Don't care if Sweet BOG average outside the ruck but having English as a sole ruck hampers the dogs game plan and allows teams to exploit them. English rucking solo means he cant use his height around the ground taking contested marks and plugging holes. He gets more body on him and limits his mobility. Another ruck capable of needing a body like Martin or Sweet frees up English more and creates headaches for the opposition. He pulls a defender away when he rests forward and the opposing ruck cant get out and over the likes of Cordy/Schache/etc.

If he was BOG average we would be fine he is a liability outside of his bog average tap work . He does not pull a defender away as they know they don't have to worry about him

 

[ringa5]

One day Darcy will be Tim's back up .Until then play with what you got.Who ever that may be.They all have pros and cons.
Good news Bruce will play again in the not to distant future.And in other areas Smith's back and maybe JJ is ready to play 1s soon.

 

[Brass Dog]

Haha yes.....but....

If Sweet goes out this week who is the relief ruck???

Also, is it just pure coincidence that English, after having injury and flu, plays one of his best ever games last week with Sweet in the side?

I know wet toast are crappola but....

More likely English played a career best game because he just overcame the flu. Peak vitality.