Opinion Changes vs Geelong

[hutchy31]

The problem is that there are Good Rucks and there are poor Rucks. Then there's fifty feet of crap, and then there's Sweet

I understand you don't like him but that seems unnecessary (despite the Moneyball reference).

 

[Foxman98]

I understand you don't like him but that seems unnecessary (despite the Moneyball reference).

I've got nothing against him at all, He's not a very good AFL footballer is all nor am I however it's just light hearted joke

 

[Bald]

Thought this was quite cheeky from the club. Chris Scott

Chris Scott

Age

49

Ht

182cm

Wt

89kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.6

4star

K

11.2

4star

HB

5.4

4star

M

5.1

5star

T

1.6

4star

G

0.4

3star

No current season stats available

D

13.2

4star

K

10.2

4star

HB

3.0

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

G

0.4

3star

stated they took training indoors due to the weather. We just posted this.

 

[Northernsoul74]

Thought this was quite cheeky from the club. Chris Scott stated they took training indoors due to the weather. We just posted this.

Fingers crossed they don’t all get sick now.

 

[fpm84]

Haven't seen your last couple of games, are you still playing Cordy up forward?

Can't wait for De Koning v Naughton, like SDK v King a few weeks ago, this could be a great one on one battle for the next decade.

 

[Dogsman16]

Haven't seen your last couple of games, are you still playing Cordy up forward?

Can't wait for De Koning v Naughton, like SDK v King a few weeks ago, this could be a great one on one battle for the next decade.

Cordy is in the 2s. Doesn’t look like he will be back soon.

Naughton v SDK will be fascinating. I wonder if SDK will play on another opponent to try and maximise intercepting or will Scott use him head to head. Naughton has less success against the strong bodied 1v1 defenders rather than the athletic interceptors. Be interesting if SDK is instructed to stick to him like a limpet or play looser.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

English wasn't as effective coming back as a 2nd forward after his concussion last year. For instance, despite Martin and Young rucking a fair chunk of the games and English up forward in the finals, English only had one mark inside fifty across all four finals (and that was when he was actually pushing forward from being the 2nd ruck, against Essendon), and we certainly looked a better team in the semi vs. Brisbane after English started rucking more than Young in the second half. English kicked 2 goals against Port in the R23 loss last year, but also was completely ineffectual up forward vs. Hawthorn in that loss, and it's a bloody waste of his skill and ability to influence as the +1 in contests if he's just standing there up forward.

I think we have to move past the idea that English isn't just our first choice ruck and is as much of a natural first ruck than Sweet is.

People are putting way too much fuss into a relatively minor part of the game, ie who maybe takes 15 ruck contests a match as the 2nd ruck, where people bringing up these statistics that have a miniscule sample size that I could argue that I flip a coin 7 times and I get 5 heads and it doesn't prove that a 10c coin is a better clearance coin because it flipped 5 heads but my 20c coin flipped five tails, so it's a worse clearance coin.

We can throw Tim O'Brien

22

Tim O'brien

Age

31

Ht

193cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.1

3star

K

6.7

3star

HB

3.4

3star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.9

4star

MG

163.8

3star

D

5.9

1star

K

4.4

2star

HB

1.4

1star

M

2.6

3star

T

2.1

3star

MG

119.4

2star

D

7.2

2star

K

3.6

2star

HB

3.6

3star

M

2.2

3star

T

2.8

5star

MG

307.0

5star

in the centre bounce for four or five times. We can have Keath and Naughton take D50 and F50 stoppages, and have Dunkley or whatever take the midfield ones. This would be just for the 15% of the match that English isn't rucking, and would only total 10-20 combined. And I'd trust all players to get more than four disposals or whatever despite literally standing next to the ball that's typical for Sweet in his recent games.

If we're not picking our best forward line because we're worried about the hard-to-measure difference of 10 ruck contests a game, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

 

[dergert]

If Marra plays on Friday it will be the most important game in his short career thus far. He will need to have an impact for us to win imo.

 

[doggies ftw]

Anyone know what the actual determining factor is for who gets polkadot guernsy at training? Westy & Marra this week - I don’t believe it’s for BOG but maybe something like best team player, most effort etc can’t remember what it actually is.

Although it’s been a pretty reliable indicator recently that the bloke that gets it from the 2s is likely to play seniors

 

[Angak]

People are putting way too much fuss into a relatively minor part of the game, ie who maybe takes 15 ruck contests a match as the 2nd ruck, where people bringing up these statistics that have a miniscule sample size that I could argue that I flip a coin 7 times and I get 5 heads and it doesn't prove that a 10c coin is a better clearance coin because it flipped 5 heads but my 20c coin flipped five tails, so it's a worse clearance coin.

I like that we have these obscure debates on our second ruck. I wish those indoctrination into the cult of sweet had better arguments but all in all it's healthy.

 

[maddog37]

English wasn't as effective coming back as a 2nd forward after his concussion last year. For instance, despite Martin and Young rucking a fair chunk of the games and English up forward in the finals, English only had one mark inside fifty across all four finals (and that was when he was actually pushing forward from being the 2nd ruck, against Essendon), and we certainly looked a better team in the semi vs. Brisbane after English started rucking more than Young in the second half. English kicked 2 goals against Port in the R23 loss last year, but also was completely ineffectual up forward vs. Hawthorn in that loss, and it's a bloody waste of his skill and ability to influence as the +1 in contests if he's just standing there up forward.

I think we have to move past the idea that English isn't just our first choice ruck and is as much of a natural first ruck than Sweet is.

People are putting way too much fuss into a relatively minor part of the game, ie who maybe takes 15 ruck contests a match as the 2nd ruck, where people bringing up these statistics that have a miniscule sample size that I could argue that I flip a coin 7 times and I get 5 heads and it doesn't prove that a 10c coin is a better clearance coin because it flipped 5 heads but my 20c coin flipped five tails, so it's a worse clearance coin.

We can throw Tim O'Brien in the centre bounce for four or five times. We can have Keath and Naughton take D50 and F50 stoppages, and have Dunkley or whatever take the midfield ones. This would be just for the 15% of the match that English isn't rucking, and would only total 10-20 combined. And I'd trust all players to get more than four disposals or whatever despite literally standing next to the ball that's typical for Sweet in his recent games.

If we're not picking our best forward line because we're worried about the hard-to-measure difference of 10 ruck contests a game, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

If we are winning games and all is well we tend to create our own problems to argue about.

If arguing about Sweet is all we have then things must be going ok!!

 

[synchrodogcal]

I guess the opposing question is how many goals do we leak as a consequence of our part time ruck getting slaughtered? And is the risk vs reward changed due to this factor

5, the answer is unequivocally 5

but seriously, it's about 5

 

[Ash1337]

English wasn't as effective coming back as a 2nd forward after his concussion last year. For instance, despite Martin and Young rucking a fair chunk of the games and English up forward in the finals, English only had one mark inside fifty across all four finals (and that was when he was actually pushing forward from being the 2nd ruck, against Essendon), and we certainly looked a better team in the semi vs. Brisbane after English started rucking more than Young in the second half. English kicked 2 goals against Port in the R23 loss last year, but also was completely ineffectual up forward vs. Hawthorn in that loss, and it's a bloody waste of his skill and ability to influence as the +1 in contests if he's just standing there up forward.

I think we have to move past the idea that English isn't just our first choice ruck and is as much of a natural first ruck than Sweet is.

People are putting way too much fuss into a relatively minor part of the game, ie who maybe takes 15 ruck contests a match as the 2nd ruck, where people bringing up these statistics that have a miniscule sample size that I could argue that I flip a coin 7 times and I get 5 heads and it doesn't prove that a 10c coin is a better clearance coin because it flipped 5 heads but my 20c coin flipped five tails, so it's a worse clearance coin.

We can throw Tim O'Brien in the centre bounce for four or five times. We can have Keath and Naughton take D50 and F50 stoppages, and have Dunkley or whatever take the midfield ones. This would be just for the 15% of the match that English isn't rucking, and would only total 10-20 combined. And I'd trust all players to get more than four disposals or whatever despite literally standing next to the ball that's typical for Sweet in his recent games.

If we're not picking our best forward line because we're worried about the hard-to-measure difference of 10 ruck contests a game, we're shooting ourselves in the foot.

It's not a minor part of the game. It's more than just 15%. Having 2 rucks means if 1 is performing poorly in the game they can swap the ruck. It also allows the ruck to run out the game. Most teams at the top are playing with 2 rucks. Demons, Lions, Freo all play with 2 that can ruck. Just playing talls as part rucks doesn't give the mids the first opportunity they need.

 

[Foxman98]

It's not a minor part of the game. It's more than just 15%. Having 2 rucks means if 1 is performing poorly in the game they can swap the ruck. It also allows the ruck to run out the game. Most teams at the top are playing with 2 rucks. Demons, Lions, Freo all play with 2 that can ruck. Just playing talls as part rucks doesn't give the mids the first opportunity they need.

English is averaging 87% time in the ruck so it's less than 15%. They all play with 2 rucks with one that impacts forward and another that takes contested marks in defensive 50 we only have 1 of them and that's English. What opportunity do they need? Most CBA's are just luck listen to Sam Mitchell talk about them

 

[doggies ftw]

It's not a minor part of the game. It's more than just 15%. Having 2 rucks means if 1 is performing poorly in the game they can swap the ruck. It also allows the ruck to run out the game. Most teams at the top are playing with 2 rucks. Demons, Lions, Freo all play with 2 that can ruck. Just playing talls as part rucks doesn't give the mids the first opportunity they need.

As well as Saints, Carlton, Swans even Tigs who won a flag on one ruck have realised you now need two ruckman with such a midfield dominated game - they have two of the most lumbering. Pies too when available and you have 8 of the top 10, one of which being us.

The other being Geelong who have the best forward/50 ruck in Hawkins (I can see us doing this with Naughty which I like, which is helping me come around to an alternative strategy) an even bigger endurance beast than Timmy in Blicavs and last week played Neale - who I don’t know anything about but he’s 203cm.

So in other words, everybody but us for the most part - but yes we know better

 

[doggies ftw]

English is averaging 87% time in the ruck so it's less than 15%. They all play with 2 rucks with one that impacts forward and another that takes contested marks in defensive 50 we only have 1 of them and that's English. What opportunity do they need? Most CBA's are just luck listen to Sam Mitchell talk about them

Any proof to back up your 87% time in the ruck claim? That’s just factually incorrect lmao

 

[Foxman98]

As well as Saints, Carlton, Swans even Tigs who won a flag on one ruck have realised you now need two ruckman with such a midfield dominated game - they have two of the most lumbering. Pies too when available and you have 8 of the top 10, one of which being us.

The other being Geelong who have the best forward/50 ruck in Hawkins (I can see us doing this with Naughty which I like, which is helping me come around to an alternative strategy) an even bigger endurance beast than Timmy in Blicavs and last week played Neale - who I don’t know anything about but he’s 203cm.

So in other words, everybody but us for the most part - but yes we know better

Once again you are missing the point with these teams 2nd "ruck" Marshall, Ladhams, De Koning and Soldo all impact up forward and around the ground. Sweet is not this Martin is not this it's all well and good to say they play 2 rucks and we should as well but when you don't have the cattle for it it's irrelevant.

 

[Foxman98]

Any proof to back up your 87% time in the ruck claim? That’s just factually incorrect lmao

 

[Dog 36]

View attachment 1413883

The figures are for Centre Bounce Attendance % which may differ to time in ruck.

 

[TiAn_]

View attachment 1413883

You realise CBAs are only a portion of total ruck contests yeah?

 

[Foxman98]

The figures are for Centre Bounce Attendance % which may differ to time in ruck.

You realise CBAs are only a portion of total ruck contests yeah?

The figures are for CBAs correct, We play with 1 ruck Tim isn't taking the CBA and resting elsewhere the only place he gets a chop out is inside 50 throw ins otherwise its a fairly accurate representation of his workload

 

[Dog 36]

The figures are for CBAs correct, We play with 1 ruck Tim isn't taking the CBA and resting elsewhere the only place he gets a chop out is inside 50 throw ins otherwise its a fairly accurate representation of his workload

Happy to be wrong but CBA deals with an event the other deals with time

 

[TiAn_]

On the weekend English played 80% game time in the ruck. Which meant that Sweet was either forward/bench for 80% of the game. Sweet is a non-factor as a forward which means we are playing with a man down for basically 80% of game time. This was also English's first game back, I'd imagine his % of game will increase to 85-90%.

So the argument some on here are making ( correct me if I'm wrong) is that having Sweet play ruck for 10-15% of game time over a Buku/Cordy/O'Brien etc. is so much more significantly better that we are willing to play with a man short for the other 85-90% of game time Sweet is not required to ruck ?

This risk vs reward of playing Sweet just doesn't add up. Not to mention that he doesn't apply any forward half pressure so we are more susceptible to conceding on transition.

You seem to be another one equating CBAs with time in ruck. Putting aside it’s an oversimplification of the role, it’s also wrong.

On the weekend Sweet attended 20% of CBAs but 36% of non CBA ruck contests. English’s prior game Cordy did 40% of the non-CBA ruck contests.

But none of this allows for what happens to the ruck role between CBAs and non CBA ruck contests, which is a common blind spot for those indoctrinated to your way of thinking hehe

 

[Foxman98]

You seem to be another one equating CBAs with time in ruck. Putting aside it’s an oversimplification of the role, it’s also wrong.

On the weekend Sweet attended 20% of CBAs but 36% of non CBA ruck contests. English’s prior game Cordy did 40% of the non-CBA ruck contests.

But none of this allows for what happens to the ruck role between CBAs and non CBA ruck contests, which is a common blind spot for those indoctrinated to your way of thinking hehe

Well actually i've looked through the stats for the first 3 rounds and he was at 78% of all the ruck contests if you take out give or take 5 from the forward 50 then he is well over the 80% mark

 

[TiAn_]

The figures are for CBAs correct, We play with 1 ruck Tim isn't taking the CBA and resting elsewhere the only place he gets a chop out is inside 50 throw ins otherwise its a fairly accurate representation of his workload

Well no, pretty simple to deduce from the numbers I posted above that English in fact does take CBAs but not ruck contests while remaining on the ground. His role isn’t as binary as you’d like to present it.