Opinion Changes vs Geelong

[Libbaaaa]

Even though he has been creaky as hell I'm glad Danger isn't playing, always seems to have another level against us, same with Menegola. I'm very optimistic about this one.

 

[TiAn_]

I don’t think it was that West was that far off AFL level, more so about whether or not he had a role in our 22. He could’ve comfortably started in quiet a few teams, but would he have been a walk up in ours? Far from it.

He’s behind 6-7 mids for a spot, so would have to have come in and play a role he hadn’t been playing. Luckily, he’s played it well across most of the two games he’s played.

Sweet on the other hand... There’s large parts of his game that aren’t AFL level. And if it wasn’t for the fact we shat the bed recruiting any ruck depth over the last few years, he’d be a mile off getting a game.

There’s a fair difference between the two imo.

The arguments are the same. Not playing the role at VFL level (incorrect about West btw), no room for him in preferred role at AFL level, too many holes in his game, too much of a liability, etc, etc.

Maybe with Sweet that will be the case. I’m not convinced he’ll be an AFL level forward/ruck. But I’ve seen similar things said with a lot of confidence about different players turn out to be laughably wrong. I’m not writing him off based on one game.

 

[doggies ftw]

I don’t think it was that West was that far off AFL level, more so about whether or not he had a role in our 22. He could’ve comfortably started in quiet a few teams, but would he have been a walk up in ours? Far from it.

He’s behind 6-7 mids for a spot, so would have to have come in and play a role he hadn’t been playing. Luckily, he’s played it well across most of the two games he’s played.

Sweet on the other hand... There’s large parts of his game that aren’t AFL level. And if it wasn’t for the fact we shat the bed recruiting any ruck depth over the last few years, he’d be a mile off getting a game.

There’s a fair difference between the two imo.

Yeah no there’s plenty of tripe week in week out about how shit West was and he’s not playing because he’s apparently the most selfish bloke in the whole world, slow, poorly skilled - the list goes on

 

[Charlie Bucket]

The arguments are the same. Not playing the role at VFL level (incorrect about West btw), no room for him in preferred role at AFL level, too many holes in his game, too much of a liability, etc, etc.

Maybe with Sweet that will be the case. I’m not convinced he’ll be an AFL level forward/ruck. But I’ve seen similar things said with a lot of confidence about different players turn out to be laughably wrong. I’m not writing him off based on one game.

They aren’t the same though.

Large parts of Sweets game aren’t currently AFL level. Whether he makes it or not is a different thing all together.

West’s football has been AFL level. Whether it was it was good enough at the time to find a spot in our 22 was the question at the time.

West is playing well (albeit only a game or two), with a handful of players filling roles he’s pushing for, Sweet is struggling in a role there’s zero pressure for.

West and Sweets situations aren’t comparable.

As for West playing the role at VFL level. He’s played predominantly midfield for most of the last 24 mths. He’s a midfielder, not a small forward or a wingman. That’s not to say he can’t craft something out of those roles along the way, but he won’t be a 200 game hybrid half fwd/small fwd. Or at least I can’t see home staying at the Dogs if that’s the role on offer.

 

[Claythesmiths]

I can't speak for others, but I know for sure that what I wanted last trade period was a new #1 ruck, with English being resigned to a permanent part-time ruck, part-time forward role he played in the first part of 2021. Now that English has finally taken that step from good player to great player and is clearly a #1 ruck, we're in need of someone else to play that #2 ruck position. English took 61 contests on Saturday night and Sweet just the 26. I am of the opinion that Sweet's lack of effectiveness in any department aside from ruck contests makes him a liability to our game if he's only taking 33% of ruck contests. He doesn't win clearances, he doesn't contribute to possession, he doesn't take marks, and he doesn't tackle much either. He also spends a lot of time on the bench, seeing as he isn't really a forward option for us. Schache is probably lacking in the mongrel and toughness he'd need to be an effective 2nd ruck, but at least he would offer us some versatility. Cordy offers us the same, albeit severely undersized for a second ruck. It's a damn shame we didn't chase someone like Mabior Chol

18

Mabior Chol

Age

28

Ht

200cm

Wt

98kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.5

2star

K

5.3

2star

HB

2.2

2star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.7

4star

G

0.8

4star

D

8.0

2star

K

6.0

2star

HB

2.0

1star

M

2.3

2star

T

2.3

3star

G

0.7

4star

D

9.2

3star

K

6.8

3star

HB

2.4

3star

M

3.2

4star

T

1.8

4star

G

1.2

4star

last year.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

Yeah no there’s plenty of tripe week in week out about how shit West was and he’s not playing because he’s apparently the most selfish bloke in the whole world, slow, poorly skilled - the list goes on

Don’t think it was to that extreme. The view was that he shouldn’t get a game if he’s not ready and there’s a line of players playing those roles ahead of him, just because his name is West. Because let’s not kid ourselves, plenty in here are infatuated with that fairy tale. I was a little harsher because I didn’t see a spot in our side for the role he was playing.

West has his shortfalls, and it’s why he’s been playing 2’s up until this point. I also think higher expectations played a part.

He’s definitely on the slower side. Foot skills under pressure are poor (elite by hand) etc. West’s game is built around what he can do around the contest. High energy, high intensity, repeat efforts. If he’s not bringing that to his game, he’s very limited and lazy selfish footballers tend to drop those things from their games. Hopefully, we don’t see any of that from here on in.

His game on Saturday was outstanding. It was like we had a couple of Dunkley’s out there just with West having no aerial presence like Dunks. He worked back defensively and was composed with ball in hand. He’s a different footballer than the one I’d seen play at the level. And his game was better than the week prior. Very impressive.

If that continues and West is happy to play that role, as I don’t think he’ll get many midfield minutes with the list ahead of him, then I think he’s found an important spot in the side. Albeit if his form continues.

And before it gets brought up as it always does, West is ahead of both Scott and McComb. Not comparable to McNeil as there’s a spot for each due to role differences. If form permits.

 

[TiAn_]

They aren’t the same though.

Large parts of Sweets game aren’t currently AFL level. Whether he makes it or not is a different thing all together.

West’s football has been AFL level. Whether it was it was good enough at the time to find a spot in our 22 was the question at the time.

West is playing well (albeit only a game or two), with a handful of players filling roles he’s pushing for, Sweet is struggling in a role there’s zero pressure for.

West and Sweets situations aren’t comparable.

As for West playing the role at VFL level. He’s played predominantly midfield for most of the last 24 mths. He’s a midfielder, not a small forward or a wingman. That’s not to say he can’t craft something out of those roles along the way, but he won’t be a 200 game hybrid half fwd/small fwd. Or at least I can’t see home staying at the Dogs if that’s the role on offer.

I disagree with the way you're trying to frame that the discussion about West was that he was AFL level, but we just couldn't find a spot for him. I recall quite a lot of criticism of his attributes generally. For example, this is what one poster had to say about him only a month ago:

Slow, short, not great overhead, terrible skills and doesn’t have the greatest of natural footballing IQ’s. Plus, has a selfish side to his game he is still struggling to overcome.

Hardly sounds like an AFL player to me. Yet, here we are four weeks later, with West playing good footy at AFL level.

 

[Mutt]

I can't speak for others, but I know for sure that what I wanted last trade period was a new #1 ruck, with English being resigned to a permanent part-time ruck, part-time forward role he played in the first part of 2021. Now that English has finally taken that step from good player to great player and is clearly a #1 ruck, we're in need of someone else to play that #2 ruck position. English took 61 contests on Saturday night and Sweet just the 26. I am of the opinion that Sweet's lack of effectiveness in any department aside from ruck contests makes him a liability to our game if he's only taking 33% of ruck contests. He doesn't win clearances, he doesn't contribute to possession, he doesn't take marks, and he doesn't tackle much either. He also spends a lot of time on the bench, seeing as he isn't really a forward option for us. Schache is probably lacking in the mongrel and toughness he'd need to be an effective 2nd ruck, but at least he would offer us some versatility. Cordy offers us the same, albeit severely undersized for a second ruck. It's a damn shame we didn't chase someone like Mabior Chol last year.

If English can consistently take 75% of the ruck contests next season and beyond we might hope that Darcy will be ready next season to play 25% ruck/55% forward/20% bench???

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I disagree with the way you're trying to frame that the discussion about West was that he was AFL level, but we just couldn't find a spot for him. I recall quite a lot of criticism of his attributes generally. For example, this is what one poster had to say about him only a month ago:



Hardly sounds like an AFL player to me. Yet, here we are four weeks later, with West playing good footy at AFL level.

You have that one ready to go Tian? Lol

Nothing in that post is incorrect.

He’s slow, lacks height, and has no aerial game. He’s also had issues ironing out some real negatives to his attitude towards his own game.

I’ll give you half of the IQ comment, I don’t believe he has the smarts of a lot of others in the side. He does a lot stupid shit, but that may also be contributed to being lazy at times.

As much as you love West and want him to succeed, you can’t pretend he doesn’t have his shortfalls Tian. He’s not in the team for the above points.

 

[Whoyagot]

Not sure Sweet should be dropped. I’ve just watched the replay and though Sweet didn’t get a lot of the ball his first involvement was telling. It was a great smother on the boundary line at west coasts half back. Great show of pressure and really started the fire. I remember at the time listening to the commentary Michael “Pav” Pavlich and Jordan “Jordy” Lewis were chatting about how there were holes on our defense everywhere and were really talking up a great contest. Well Sweet must have just said “this is how you defend boys” and the rest is history. Safe to say Pav and Jordy were a bit more circumspect about West Coasts chances after that.

 

[Claythesmiths]

If English can consistently take 75% of the ruck contests next season and beyond we might hope that Darcy will be ready next season to play 25% ruck/55% forward/20% bench???

I would love that, but that time seems a fair way off to me. He hasn't taken a single ruck contest in the VFL so far this year, and I doubt he will.

 

[TiAn_]

You have that one ready to go Tian? Lol

Nothing in that post is incorrect.

He’s slow, lacks height, and has no aerial game. He’s also had issues ironing out some real negatives to his attitude towards his own game.

I’ll give you half of the IQ comment, I don’t believe he has the smarts of a lot of others in the side. He does a lot stupid shit, but that may also be contributed to being lazy at times.

As much as you love West and want him to succeed, you can’t pretend he doesn’t have his shortfalls Tian. He’s not in the team for the above points.

We’ve all gotten observations about players wrong, I wondered out loud why Mitch Honeychurch couldn’t be our Paul Puopolo. I don’t love West, I’ve just not doubted that he would succeed at AFL level as a forward/mid when given the chance. Many were very critical, unreasonably so imo. Seeing a lot of equally confident opinions about Sweet. I’m just not prepared to put a line through him at this stage.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

We’ve all gotten observations about players wrong, I wondered out loud why Mitch Honeychurch couldn’t be our Paul Puopolo. I don’t love West, I’ve just not doubted that he would succeed at AFL level as a forward/mid when given the chance. Many were very critical, unreasonably so imo. Seeing a lot of equally confident opinions about Sweet. I’m just not prepared to put a line through him at this stage.

I’m surprised by your reluctance to acknowledge his shortfalls Tian. They’re quiet obvious lol.

He’s playing well, hopefully it continues as the role he’s playing is still open and up for grabs.

Re Sweet. Again, no one seems to have put a line through him. He just needs to be far better in important areas of the role he’s playing. He needs to develop.
Not wanting him in the team doesn’t equate to wanting him delisted.

 

[Libbaaaa]

Any talk about a #2 ruck needs to be framed in the context that Tim wants to ruck a minimum of 80% of gametime and I don't see that changing. Gone are the days of English being a forward/ruck.

 

[Optimistic Dog]

The English Debate

Premise 1 Sole Ruckman

Tim plays 80 to 85% onball with needed breaks filled by a non ruckman like Cordy of Schache

The advantages are

The non ruckman is more mobile and can play as defensive forward and help with other rotations
Tim is better than Sweet as a ruckman and we benefit from a large amount of time on ball.

Premise 2 Tim/Sweet combination

Tim plays 60% on ball 30% forward 10% on the bench

Advantages are


We to need more marking power to assist Astro and Tim has the marking ability and can hit scoreboard
Sweet is a much better ruckman than Cordy or Schache
Sweet will get better the more he plays.


I agree if Bevo still wants to play Tim 80 to 85% ruck, very limited time forward and on the bench then there is no place for Sweet. However I prefer to experiment with the Tim/Sweet combination to see how it goes.

ps We have not lost a game this season with Sweet playing.

 

[Royale]

Forward tag on Stewart. Gotta happen. It's gotta be Buku. We simply must curtail this guys influence. De Koning has been good for them but if we can manufacture a Naughton vs De Koning then we'll have to take it. Stewart sets up so much of their attacks. We all know our defence has zero chance of stopping the likes of Cameron and Hawkins if Geelong have even a sniff of clean ball through the middle.

 

[lachy]

The English Debate

Premise 1 Sole Ruckman

Tim plays 80 to 85% onball with needed breaks filled by a non ruckman like Cordy of Schache

The advantages are

The non ruckman is more mobile and can play as defensive forward and help with other rotations
Tim is better than Sweet as a ruckman and we benefit from a large amount of time on ball.

Premise 2 Tim/Sweet combination

Tim plays 60% on ball 30% forward 10% on the bench

Advantages are


We to need more marking power to assist Astro and Tim has the marking ability and can hit scoreboard
Sweet is a much better ruckman than Cordy or Schache
Sweet will get better the more he plays.


I agree if Bevo still wants to play Tim 80 to 85% ruck, very limited time forward and on the bench then there is no place for Sweet. However I prefer to experiment with the Tim/Sweet combination to see how it goes.

ps We have not lost a game this season with Sweet playing.

I think a lot is being made about how much time Tim wants as a number 1 ruckman and not a lot are looking at the fact that he is now much more damaging for a longer period of time as a genuine on baller around the ground whose ruck work has improved.

It would be madness not to ruck Tim for the maximum minutes as he provides so much more than he would as a forward.

Sweet is a number 2 first ruck and will get his chances when Tim is unavailable.

We need a genuine number 2 ruckman and have tried Cordy and Sweet (for 1 game) in this role. Cordy was marginally better around the ground, Sweet at the stoppage. For this year, until we recruit for this role or Darcy develops I would like to see Buku given the opportunity as his skill set certainly compliments Tim more so than the other 2. None of the options will provide a significant difference but an extra 5% could be handy

 

[Bald]

I can understand two rucks against teams with dominant ruckmen but I can't see it happening against Geelong.

 

[Mofra]

I can't speak for others, but I know for sure that what I wanted last trade period was a new #1 ruck, with English being resigned to a permanent part-time ruck, part-time forward role he played in the first part of 2021. Now that English has finally taken that step from good player to great player and is clearly a #1 ruck, we're in need of someone else to play that #2 ruck position. English took 61 contests on Saturday night and Sweet just the 26. I am of the opinion that Sweet's lack of effectiveness in any department aside from ruck contests makes him a liability to our game if he's only taking 33% of ruck contests. He doesn't win clearances, he doesn't contribute to possession, he doesn't take marks, and he doesn't tackle much either. He also spends a lot of time on the bench, seeing as he isn't really a forward option for us. Schache is probably lacking in the mongrel and toughness he'd need to be an effective 2nd ruck, but at least he would offer us some versatility. Cordy offers us the same, albeit severely undersized for a second ruck. It's a damn shame we didn't chase someone like Mabior Chol last year.

Sweet did one great thing against West Coast - he stayed the hell out of Naughton's way.

He looked terrible at times but he's no forward. He's a ruck and that's it. As far as second rucks go, it's unpopular but Cordy plays the role better.

I suspect Sweet gets sick of playing second banana and after his contract he goes to a club that can use a "solid but not spectacular" ruck.

As for selection changes, Smith comes in for Scott/McNeill who go to the medi-sub. We might just give Sweet one more week as Geelong's ruck division is the worst on the comp so we'll have an advantage there.

Buks might be unlucky after Marra's 6 VFL goals but it depends if the MC can see him not leading to the same spot that Naughty leads to

 

[doggiesin08]

They aren’t the same though.

Large parts of Sweets game aren’t currently AFL level. Whether he makes it or not is a different thing all together.

West’s football has been AFL level. Whether it was it was good enough at the time to find a spot in our 22 was the question at the time.

West is playing well (albeit only a game or two), with a handful of players filling roles he’s pushing for, Sweet is struggling in a role there’s zero pressure for.

West and Sweets situations aren’t comparable.

As for West playing the role at VFL level. He’s played predominantly midfield for most of the last 24 mths. He’s a midfielder, not a small forward or a wingman. That’s not to say he can’t craft something out of those roles along the way, but he won’t be a 200 game hybrid half fwd/small fwd. Or at least I can’t see home staying at the Dogs if that’s the role on offer.

I agree the situations are not comparable. West finished 2nd in the VFL league B&F in his first year. Sweet was getting dominated by Tom Campbell, Rhys Stanley, Callum Sinclair, etc. as a 23 year old.

 

[3rdgenbulldog]

I can understand two rucks against teams with dominant ruckmen but I can't see it happening against Geelong.

you must be a happy camper about the celtics!

 

[TiAn_]

I agree the situations are not comparable. West finished 2nd in the VFL league B&F in his first year. Sweet was getting dominated by Tom Campbell, Rhys Stanley, Callum Sinclair, etc. as a 23 year old.

Makes all the criticism of West the last two years even more baffling imo.

Thought it was obvious I wasn’t equating them as players, just pointing out that the narratives that form around players on here are often inaccurate. They might be spot on with Sweet. I need more than one game though. Others might not.

 

[weltschmerz]

Westy has shown huge improvement since his last stint in the AFL. Cleaned up his disposal massively and playing a much more team game. I don’t think Sweet has improved nearly as much.

 

[doggies ftw]

I think a lot is being made about how much time Tim wants as a number 1 ruckman and not a lot are looking at the fact that he is now much more damaging for a longer period of time as a genuine on baller around the ground whose ruck work has improved.

It would be madness not to ruck Tim for the maximum minutes as he provides so much more than he would as a forward.

Sweet is a number 2 first ruck and will get his chances when Tim is unavailable.

We need a genuine number 2 ruckman and have tried Cordy and Sweet (for 1 game) in this role. Cordy was marginally better around the ground, Sweet at the stoppage. For this year, until we recruit for this role or Darcy develops I would like to see Buku given the opportunity as his skill set certainly compliments Tim more so than the other 2. None of the options will provide a significant difference but an extra 5% could be handy

We don’t need to sit English at full forward for half the day though, surely we can find a more creative role for him that uses his obvious elite strengths outside of the ruck contest?

He was absolutely dominant on the outside on the weekend but let’s be honest it’s not like he dominated in the ruck contests, against two of the worst ruckmen in the league.

English vs. Jamieson (40 contests)
Hitouts: 23 / 11
To Advantage: 7 / 4
Clearances: 19 / 13
Score: 7.2 (44) / 4.4 (28)

English vs. Williams (21 contests)
Hitouts: 5 / 9
To Advantage: 1 / 3
Clearances: 11 / 9
Score: 2.1 (13) / 0.0 (0)

Sweet vs. Jamieson (15 contests)
Hitouts: 11 / 0
To Advantage: 1 / 0
Clearances: 3 / 5
Score: 0.1 (1) / 0.0 (0)

Sweet vs. Williams (11 contests)
Hitouts: 5 / 3
To Advantage: 2 / 1
Clearances: 6 / 3
Score: 1.2 (8) / 0.1 (1)

Ball ups and especially throw ins around the ground, are still not his strong point. And whilst improved and acceptable now, against bigger/better ruckmen can still be a negative for him.

This is the thing, no one’s suggesting we hide English in the pocket but why can’t we get creative here. Is there any reason he can’t push up to the contest as an extra mid/forward. Sweet contesting the ruck on the wing, English is inside 50 being manned by a key defender. English pushes up and contests the ball as an extra mid, plays to his strengths not his weakness & throw the whole oppo backline into disarray.

If we lose Scott to accomodate English playing genuine outside mid minutes around the ground are we really missing anything? Then let Sweet get more time in the around the ground ruck contests so he can add enough value to the side and we don’t worry about hiding a spud in the forward line like Sweet, Cordy, or Schache.

Just a thought but I just want to see us get creative with this, English is an extremely unique player - let’s think outside the box to find a solution that benefits the team rather than thinking we need to find the prototype unicorn 2nd ruck that everyone wants.

On Buku he can barely run out 60% TOG in the forward line I don’t think he’s up to the 2nd ruck role at this stage. I mean I’m interested to try it and this week would probably be the best opportunity but I think if there was even the slightest possibility he could do it Bevo would have tried him before Sweet tbh

 

[doggies ftw]

Makes all the criticism of West the last two years even more baffling imo.

Thought it was obvious I wasn’t equating them as players, just pointing out that the narratives that form around players on here are often inaccurate. They might be spot on with Sweet. I need more than one game though. Others might not.

People really quick to miss your point here