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Foxman98

Norm Smith Medallist
May 25, 2018
5,066
7,087
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Is it actually better for his development though? I personally think he’d learn more at this stage of his career being a key component of our VFL team.

When you look at all the guys who have been ‘fast tracked’ or just clearly given a longer leash than others when it comes to poor games etc who has actually been a success? Gowers, McComb, Gardner, Hannan? No,
Hayes? god no,
VDM? Not yet and unlikely ever,
Scott? Yeah maybe.

It’s a list which doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence
Gowers was our leading goalkicker for his first year and earned his spot in the team on merit

McComb/Hayes/Scott/Gardner/Hannan were all VFL players who were picked to play roles not for long term spots however Scott/Gardner were the only 2 who somewhat grasped the opportunity to keep their careers going

VDM is always injured so not sure how he has been fast tracked?

There is no KPP in the VFL that is currently performing to push JOD out and if he is played down back in the VFL like he did against GC he will be fine and yes it is better to develop at AFL level for him then plodding away in the VFL which standard wise is miles below the AFL
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
25,077
33,893
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Gowers was our leading goalkicker for his first year and earned his spot in the team on merit

McComb/Hayes/Scott/Gardner/Hannan were all VFL players who were picked to play roles not for long term spots however Scott/Gardner were the only 2 who somewhat grasped the opportunity to keep their careers going

VDM is always injured so not sure how he has been fast tracked?

There is no KPP in the VFL that is currently performing to push JOD out and if he is played down back in the VFL like he did against GC he will be fine and yes it is better to develop at AFL level for him then plodding away in the VFL which standard wise is miles below the AFL
Theyre all guys who have held their spots whilst seriously underperforming - similar to JOD right now (again I really do like the kid so I don’t think it’s necessarily his fault he’s not performing but he isn’t)

As I pointed out 4 weeks ago if we keep playing a man down each week it will cost us at some point, it now has
 

Palace03

Club Legend
Jan 2, 2004
2,557
255
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Crystal Palace, Victory
Happy with the change of tall backs, although Gardner may have been a good match up for Marshall. O'Brien just gives me zero confidence back there.

Don't loose anything going Baker to West, but if Vandermeer plays HB and is a direct replacement for Richards we are in strife.

Regardless it will be won in the middle, and there's bats deeper than ours and then of course can we convert?
 

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Anja_Nees

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2001
10,108
17,550
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
We can start making calls on the mature players now I think.

O’Brien, Hannan, McComb, Crozier and sadly McLean are probably all finishing up this year.

Suspect Keath is in the same basket. Back in but can’t hold his spot and is over 30.
 

Foxman98

Norm Smith Medallist
May 25, 2018
5,066
7,087
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Theyre all guys who have held their spots whilst seriously underperforming - similar to JOD right now (again I really do like the kid so I don’t think it’s necessarily his fault he’s not performing but he isn’t)

As I pointed out 4 weeks ago if we keep playing a man down each week it will cost us at some point, it now has
Underperforming in what way?

What metrics are being used for their selection?

We haven't been playing a man down at all as you've suggested and it hasn't been what's "cost" us at all,

You can say in my opinion this has been a negative impact on the side for xyz reason sure and in my opinion he/they shouldn't have been selected for games due to my own measuring metrics but to continually suggest that it is the reason we lost our last 2 games is laughable
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
25,077
33,893
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Underperforming in what way?

What metrics are being used for their selection?

We haven't been playing a man down at all as you've suggested and it hasn't been what's "cost" us at all,

You can say in my opinion this has been a negative impact on the side for xyz reason sure and in my opinion he/they shouldn't have been selected for games due to my own measuring metrics but to continually suggest that it is the reason we lost our last 2 games is laughable
Okay bro xx
 

Chalky White

All Australian
Sep 30, 2019
693
1,093
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Is it actually better for his development though? I personally think he’d learn more at this stage of his career being a key component of our VFL team.

When you look at all the guys who have been ‘fast tracked’ or just clearly given a longer leash than others when it comes to poor games etc who has actually been a success? Gowers, McComb, Gardner, Hannan? No,
Hayes? god no,
VDM? Not yet and unlikely ever,
Scott? Yeah maybe.

It’s a list which doesn’t exactly fill me with confidence
Agree, I don't see the point of recruiting guys that really have no upside. The club is littered now and in the past of players that simply aren't even depth. They are just never going to make it. They don't fill a hole or a need, they are just there on the list.
It's a fundamental issue that has dogged our club for quite a period. We seem to recruit solid VFL players that will only ever be solid VFL players on the expectation that they will become solid AFL players. It just doesn't happen, or if it does it is a complete fluke.
We as a club need to hit the draft and forget about bit part players, I would much rather see a kid have a go and fail than a player that is never going to make it fail.
I am happy to recruit for needs Jones, Lobb etc. But I think we should be far more discerning on picking up the Joe Average players from the VFL or other clubs. Our recruiting in this regard is almost Nth Melbourne like.
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
25,077
33,893
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Agree, I don't see the point of recruiting guys that really have no upside. The club is littered now and in the past of players that simply aren't even depth. They are just never going to make it. They don't fill a hole or a need, they are just there on the list.
It's a fundamental issue that has dogged our club for quite a period. We seem to recruit solid VFL players that will only ever be solid VFL players on the expectation that they will become solid AFL players. It just doesn't happen, or if it does it is a complete fluke.
We as a club need to hit the draft and forget about bit part players, I would much rather see a kid have a go and fail than a player that is never going to make it fail.
I am happy to recruit for needs Jones, Lobb etc. But I think we should be far more discerning on picking up the Joe Average players from the VFL or other clubs. Our recruiting in this regard is almost Nth Melbourne like.
Yeah agreed mate, and what makes it worse is that our recruiters when given a chance with picks at the draft have actually been really good. Bedendo, AJ & Cleary all look like real talents with late picks, but we never give them an opportunity because we’d prefer these VFL battlers
 

VogonProsthetnic

Norm Smith Medallist
Apr 26, 2010
5,116
7,001
Beaufort
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Agree, I don't see the point of recruiting guys that really have no upside. The club is littered now and in the past of players that simply aren't even depth. They are just never going to make it. They don't fill a hole or a need, they are just there on the list.
It's a fundamental issue that has dogged our club for quite a period. We seem to recruit solid VFL players that will only ever be solid VFL players on the expectation that they will become solid AFL players. It just doesn't happen, or if it does it is a complete fluke.
We as a club need to hit the draft and forget about bit part players, I would much rather see a kid have a go and fail than a player that is never going to make it fail.
I am happy to recruit for needs Jones, Lobb etc. But I think we should be far more discerning on picking up the Joe Average players from the VFL or other clubs. Our recruiting in this regard is almost Nth Melbourne like.

Agree. If a player has a chance, they need to be elite or close to in one aspect of the game. Either need to have speed, be a great kick, good hands or elite decision making. The guys we pick seem to have no defining characteristics.

Personally, if a player is not quick and is not a good kick - they are a wasted list spot.
 

Anja_Nees

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2001
10,108
17,550
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Agree, I don't see the point of recruiting guys that really have no upside. The club is littered now and in the past of players that simply aren't even depth. They are just never going to make it. They don't fill a hole or a need, they are just there on the list.
It's a fundamental issue that has dogged our club for quite a period. We seem to recruit solid VFL players that will only ever be solid VFL players on the expectation that they will become solid AFL players. It just doesn't happen, or if it does it is a complete fluke.
We as a club need to hit the draft and forget about bit part players, I would much rather see a kid have a go and fail than a player that is never going to make it fail.
I am happy to recruit for needs Jones, Lobb etc. But I think we should be far more discerning on picking up the Joe Average players from the VFL or other clubs. Our recruiting in this regard is almost Nth Melbourne like.
Have posted about this a million times on here (usually around trade time when posters think they’ve found a ‘moneyball’ buy from another club) but fringe players usually return to their prior form after a little while.

Baker, Hannan, etc didn’t crack it for a regular game where they came from and are in and out of the side with us. O’Brien is certainly no better with us than Hawthorn and probably worse.

Doesn’t mean never do it, but usually they become list cloggers.
 

Mojorisin

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 20, 2017
5,924
9,766
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Have posted about this a million times on here (usually around trade time when posters think they’ve found a ‘moneyball’ buy from another club) but fringe players usually return to their prior form after a little while.

Baker, Hannan, etc didn’t crack it for a regular game where they came from and are in and out of the side with us. O’Brien is certainly no better with us than Hawthorn and probably worse.

Doesn’t mean never do it, but usually they become list cloggers.
Baker I don't mind because he plays a position we have no depth in and came from a club with lots of wingmen. Hannan and o'brien however were never of interest to me even as break glass options baker is great depth as a DFA but shouldn't be a walk up start if we were competing for a premiership.
 

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Anja_Nees

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2001
10,108
17,550
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Baker I don't mind because he plays a position we have no depth in and came from a club with lots of wingmen. Hannan and o'brien however were never of interest to me even as break glass options baker is great depth as a DFA but shouldn't be a walk up start if we were competing for a premiership.
No issue with taking the punt occasionally. Biggs was a good example - only with us a few years and only a certain selection in 2016, but it was enough.

Problem is the number of players we’ve accumulated with no more upside. Think we will have a clean out. Generally I prefer looking to the lower leagues. Doesn’t always bear fruit but Dickson, Picko, Morris, Boyd etc were critical to the flag.
 

Mojorisin

Norm Smith Medallist
Oct 20, 2017
5,924
9,766
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
No issue with taking the punt occasionally. Biggs was a good example - only with us a few years and only a certain selection in 2016, but it was enough.

Problem is the number of players we’ve accumulated with no more upside. Think we will have a clean out. Generally I prefer looking to the lower leagues. Doesn’t always bear fruit but Dickson, Picko, Morris, Boyd etc were critical to the flag.
Poulter is a perfect example of the player I'd be targeting. Young and plenty of upside.
 

St 07

Premiership Player
Jan 12, 2007
3,427
3,361
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
JOD looks like a skinny Dunkley from a distance. Could be Bev just gifting him games in the hope he comes on to spite Dunks. Wouldn't rule it out
 

The Slitherin' Snake

Club Legend
Apr 8, 2005
2,092
2,175
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Really strange selections this week.

  • Baker is stiff to get dropped. His game against Geelong was his worst in our colours, but he's been a real surprise packet for me and liked most of his games this year.
  • O'Donnell keeping his spot is a mystery. He's clearly not ready for AFL yet and we've been a man down with him out there. That said, he does have some promising attributes so i can see him making it in the future.
  • If O'Donnell is to stay in the team, then I reckon we only should have brought back one of Keath or Bruce (while still dropping Gardner and O'Brien). We're too tall. Had the balance right earlier in the season and the last 4 or 5 games have gone too big
  • VDM off half back scares me. Our backline really only has 1 good user now which is very concerning (although Liam Jones kicking has been pretty good in recent weeks and was amazing against GC)
 

Golden_6

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 15, 2014
9,953
20,524
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Chicago Bulls
Really strange selections this week.

  • Baker is stiff to get dropped. His game against Geelong was his worst in our colours, but he's been a real surprise packet for me and liked most of his games this year.
  • O'Donnell keeping his spot is a mystery. He's clearly not ready for AFL yet and we've been a man down with him out there. That said, he does have some promising attributes so i can see him making it in the future.
  • If O'Donnell is to stay in the team, then I reckon we only should have brought back one of Keath or Bruce (while still dropping Gardner and O'Brien). We're too tall. Had the balance right earlier in the season and the last 4 or 5 games have gone too big
  • VDM off half back scares me. Our backline really only has 1 good user now which is very concerning (although Liam Jones kicking has been pretty good in recent weeks and was amazing against GC)

This is what really irks me. Before the Carlton game, we had a well structured side and had won 5 of 6 games. Bevo decides it's a good idea to completely change the structure of the side and bring in an extra tall (an inexperienced tall who has never played forward either) at the expense of a runner. Since then, we've stumbled over Carlton, beat up a depleted Crows side and then lost the next two.

In previous years, Bevo has played the incorrect structure during the early part of the season and corrected it a couple of months in. This year, he's decided to do it the other way around to our detriment. It's infuriating.
 
Last edited:
Oct 9, 2013
10,681
14,210
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Agree, I don't see the point of recruiting guys that really have no upside. The club is littered now and in the past of players that simply aren't even depth. They are just never going to make it. They don't fill a hole or a need, they are just there on the list.
It's a fundamental issue that has dogged our club for quite a period. We seem to recruit solid VFL players that will only ever be solid VFL players on the expectation that they will become solid AFL players. It just doesn't happen, or if it does it is a complete fluke.
We as a club need to hit the draft and forget about bit part players, I would much rather see a kid have a go and fail than a player that is never going to make it fail.
I am happy to recruit for needs Jones, Lobb etc. But I think we should be far more discerning on picking up the Joe Average players from the VFL or other clubs. Our recruiting in this regard is almost Nth Melbourne like.
People said the same things about Scott who is now a best-22 lock. That's 1 in 6 or 7 success rate for these guys. Do you think every speculative pick works out? Recruiting would be pretty easy if it played out that way. What is an acceptable success rate to you for these speculative back end roster picks?
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
25,077
33,893
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
This is what really irks me. Before the Carlton game, we had a well struggled side and had won 5 of 6 games. Bevo decides it's a good idea to completely change the structure of the side and bring in an extra tall (an inexperienced tall who has never played forward either) at the expense of a runner. Since then, we've stumbled over Carlton, beat up a depleted Crows side and then lost the next two.

In previous years, Bevo has played the incorrect structure during the early part of the season and corrected it a couple of months in. This year, he's decided to do it the other way around to our detriment. It's infuriating.
Not to mention he even admitted as much in a press conference by saying the structure round 1 & 2 was wrong, we win 5 games and we go back to it? Why? Painful
 

doggies ftw

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 22, 2008
25,077
33,893
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
People said the same things about Scott who is now a best-22 lock. That's 1 in 6 or 7 success rate for these guys. Do you think every speculative pick works out? Recruiting would be pretty easy if it played out that way. What is an acceptable success rate to you for these speculative back end roster picks?
1 in 6 for speculative young players with some sort of upside is fine, 1 in 6 for mature aged 25yos from the state leagues is absolutely not okay.

If it was why would we bother? You don’t keep going back to mature aged battlers from the VFL to get one player with the very very low ceiling of a Scott. I’d suggest with these sort of picks your hit rate would have to be closer to 3 or even 4 out of every 5 becoming at least a competent depth role player. Otherwise don’t bother.
 

Bald

Premium Gold
Apr 5, 2016
7,166
16,094
AFL Club
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Boston Celtics
Blaming the last two weeks losses on structure is like blaming the first two weeks losses on efficiency.
 

Timewillcome

Senior List
Feb 1, 2013
163
406
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
This is what really irks me. Before the Carlton game, we had a well struggled side and had won 5 of 6 games. Bevo decides it's a good idea to completely change the structure of the side and bring in an extra tall (an inexperienced tall who has never played forward either) at the expense of a runner. Since then, we've stumbled over Carlton, beat up a depleted Crows side and then lost the next two.

In previous years, Bevo has played the incorrect structure during the early part of the season and corrected it a couple of months in. This year, he's decided to do it the other way around to our detriment. It's infuriating.
This is one of his biggest weaknesses' in my view also. Tries to be too smart when things are going our way. If the setup is right but a player is injured, bring in a player with similar qualities. Don't make some low percentage move just to appear clever.

This approach has killed our chances of high finals finish more than once.
 
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scooter600x

Norm Smith Medallist
Aug 14, 2003
8,895
2,105
Behind the goals, Geelong Rd end
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
People said the same things about Scott who is now a best-22 lock. That's 1 in 6 or 7 success rate for these guys. Do you think every speculative pick works out? Recruiting would be pretty easy if it played out that way. What is an acceptable success rate to you for these speculative back end roster picks?
Scott is most definitely not a best 22 lock. He’s been adequate but is still two bad games away from being dropped (assuming there was someone to bring in). Last week he was as bad as anyone.
 

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